R + L = J v 74

[Fred of Ashai]

Well done! Now, where's the manual how to use your KG?

Because it is not a good question. We know already that the king can order the KG to stand aside - Robert ordered that to Barristan when hunting the boar, and the same Barristan knows that he would have to obey Dany if she assigned him to guard Hizdahr instead of her. The king/queen, though, is the person that they are sworn to, and thus the only person who can relieve them of the duty. Note also that fulfilling the duty is a collective requirement - the king needs a KG, no matter which, and as long as that one is doing his duty, they all are. Remove that one, and none of them is, and without the king's direct order, they have no excuse. The vow knows no conditions, either it is being kept, or not. If it is not being kept, and they make no attempt at its fulfilling, they are oathbreakers.

It was a very good question. The order I am talking about was not given by the king. It was given by Larys Strong, a member of the Small Council. In response, the King's guard swears an oath to take one of the children to Dorne with full knowledge that this will leave the king fleeing with no King's guard protection.

I think that if Larys can give such an order and extract such an oath, Rhaegar can too.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

It's a great question. I think one of the commonly held misconceptions about RLJ is that there is some monolithic opinion that Jon is legitimate and will one day sit the IT. The reality of course is much more nuanced.

Personally I agree with FL and Ygrain, that the text points to legitimacy but that the actual fact of it may not mean much in the final analysis.

I'm not entirely sure how that message gets out and what it would mean to the realm anyway. I tend to think Jon will not sit the IT, that his destiny lies elsewhere. That's where I believe the inversion of the hidden heir trope lies. He is hidden heir, I think the text is clear on that. What is less clear is where that will take him. So far I've seen nothing in the text pointing to King's Landing.

The direction of the story? Perhaps not that much (especially not after Robb legitimizing Jon). But it would be important in explaining the actions of the three KG at TOJ, and Neds feelings towards them.

All that I care is solid structured narrative. Devising such a plot twist only to leave Jon's condition fundamentally unchanged (a bastard was, a bastard is) would be the most pleonastic move in the history of characterization (the author might have as well left him the bastard son of Ned).

Not to mention all the ironic metatextual nuances Martin has shaded the text with (we have been analyzing those little gems ad nauseam on the 74 versions of this thread). They would lose their double entendre, their delicious ambiguity, their foreshadowing quality to reverse to plain descriptive text. So it all comes to brilliantly flavoured writing versus a bland one.

Nah, there should be something more. It will be a cyclic redundancy if the KG was there, to show us that Jon was legitimate, which is there to show us why they were there.

But I don't think that this "something more" is tied to a throne, that if it is, Jon will want it, or that someone will give it to him.

If Daenerys learns of it, it can be an important turning point in her arch. I think that we will see some interesting things develop because of Jon being the legitimate heir. If he is the Prince that was Promised, there may be more to that prophecy that we need to learn, in order to have a full understanding of where Jon is headed. I do believe that the Others are a huge threat to all warm blooded life, and I don't see them being stopped north of the Neck, forcing Jon at least as far south as the Trident in his battle against them. He is a key to uniting the realm, and because of that he will be forced to reign over the Seven Kingdoms and marshal their armies in the Battle for the Dawn II.

I have no idea if it will affect the future story, @MtnLion has brought the arguments how it would.

I have the feeling that it doesn't matter much. I think it gives the life as a bastard making his own way just that additional tad of irony if he actually is the very Targaryen Prince. (Not that I think it will change his future path)

And the Rhaegar-character is the one to marry Lyanna. If he does everything the "right" way, in all that chaos he must have married her. Elsewise he would be out-of-character, I think.

The other thing, if he planned an incestuous polygamy marriage for his children born or unborn right away, what would have kept him from doing a non-incestuous polygamy marriage for himself but the unthinkable lack of a septon to do it?

Except from these three arguments, that seem to be in favour of it, there is no reason for R+L to marry, that I agree ;-)

This is great. Thanks, all - I appreciate the responses! I'm not a regular frequenter of the RLJ threads, and as this question goes a bit beyond the standard FAQs listed in the OP I wondered if there was general consensus on the issue. My impression is that, yes, there is a general consensus on the likelihood of Jon's (Targ) legitimacy - with perhaps less agreement on its plot significance, or the impact it will have on the story moving forward. Sound fair?

And the articulation of our replies is evidence enough that we are not a bunch of cult adepts and very much rationally guided in our argumentations....

Agreed. Though if I'd made those kinds of assumptions to begin with, I probably wouldn't have asked. :)

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Agreed. Though if I'd made those kinds of assumptions to begin with, I probably wouldn't have asked. :)

Now TSC has been served the usual evasive alibi answers, let's resume the cult of R+L=J or Jon Snow aka Visenyon Aemon I Targaryen to the initiated ones. ;) :drunk: :cool:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

This is great. Thanks, all - I appreciate the responses! I'm not a regular frequenter of the RLJ threads, and as this question goes a bit beyond the standard FAQs listed in the OP I wondered if there was general consensus on the issue. My impression is that, yes, there is a general consensus on the likelihood of Jon's (Targ) legitimacy - with perhaps less agreement on its plot significance, or the impact it will have on the story moving forward. Sound fair?

Agreed. Though if I'd made those kinds of assumptions to begin with, I probably wouldn't have asked. :)

Sounds fair. My impression is that you've brought an open mind and a genuine interest in dialogue to the subject. That's a rare breed of "questioner" in these parts ;)

:cheers:

eta:

Now TSC has been served the usual alibi answers, let's resume the cult of R+L=J or Jon Snow aka Visenyon Aemon I Targaryen to the initiated ones. ;) :drunk: :cool:

Lol

[MtnLion]

It was a very good question. The order I am talking about was not given by the king. It was given by Larys Strong, a member of the Small Council. In response, the King's guard swears an oath to take one of the children to Dorne with full knowledge that this will leave the king fleeing with no King's guard protection.

I think that if Larys can give such an order and extract such an oath, Rhaegar can too.

Only the king can give an order to the Kingsguard I believe has been very well documented. The primary mission of the Kingsguard is to guard the king is another very well documented facet.

Rhaegar has his assigned bodyguards of Whent and Dayne, and he can give them orders. What is interesting is that he apparently gave Lord Commander Hightower an order which he followed. Not that it really has a lot of bearing on the scene at the tower, since we can judge that on its own merits.

Let's drop back to Jaime as Lord Commander for just a moment. He gives the Kingsguard the option of checking with higher powers if they don't see the logic behind an order from the king. Of those with decision making capabilities, Jaime lists himself, as Lord Commander, and Cersei as the Queen. He does not include and Small Council members, and surprisingly he does not include the Hand, which has been included in other lists. The Hand speaks for the king . . . Larys does not.

ETA: If you are sincerely questioning this, why not start with the scene at the tower? Lord Commander Hightower says that he would not have abandoned King's Landing to protect Viserys instead of Aerys. Arthur agrees, saying then when Viserys fled, and now meaning they had something more valuable to protect at the tower than Queen Rhaella and/or Prince Viserys. Come up with conflicting quotes. ;)

You can play "what if" games all you want, with yourself. But, constantly trying to refute a solidly documented wall of support, with unfounded suggestion is not going to build any credibility here, and will get you ignored sooner, rather than later.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Nah, there should be something more. It will be a cyclic redundancy if the KG was there, to show us that Jon was legitimate, which is there to show us why they were there.

But I don't think that this "something more" is tied to a throne, that if it is, Jon will want it, or that someone will give it to him.

Well, if Jon turns out to be legit, and people learn of it, you can be certain that someone will want to try and put him on the throne. It might not be what Jon wants, but if someone else wants to put Jon on the IT, that could carry consequences for the entire realm, which could affect the storyline.

[Ice Zombie]

I'm pretty convinced on this theory, and a version of one of these threads got me lurking on these boards in the first place.

But the legitimacy question is something that I can't get enthusiastic about. I don't care if he is the heir to the iron throne at all really and ultimately I think this is how GRRM might subvert this the hidden hero trope. R+L=J could be confirmed to the reader somehow, but Jon might never find out. Or by the end of the series the current social structure of Westeros is completely destroyed and there is no iron throne.

Ultimately, the war for the pointy chair is a pathetic waste of time and damaging to virtually everyone in westeros.

[MtnLion]

Ultimately, the war for the pointy chair is a pathetic waste of time and damaging to virtually everyone in westeros.

So far. ;)

[Fred of Ashai]

That's pretty close to my assessment of the situation too, actually. It may even be that Aerys knew by the time he sent Rhaegar that Lyanna was the KotLT, which would mean that Rhaegar abucted Lyanna precisely in order to protect her from his father's wrath. I may be wrong on that last count though.

If Aerys knew that Rhaegar had Lyanna and then Aerys sent Hightower to find them, wouldn't Aerys order Hightower to take Lyanna hostage, just as Elia was a hostage? This would ensure that Rhaegar would go to the Trident to fight Lyanna's brother. It would also provide Aerys with a hostage against the rebels. And if Hightower conveyed this order to Dayne and Whent, they would have to obey (they swore to obey the king, not judge him).

[MtnLion]

If Aerys knew that Rhaegar had Lyanna and then Aerys sent Hightower to find them, wouldn't Aerys order Hightower to take Lyanna hostage, just as Elia was a hostage? This would ensure that Rhaegar would go to the Trident to fight Lyanna's brother. It would also provide Aerys with a hostage against the rebels. And if Hightower conveyed this order to Dayne and Whent, they would have to obey (they swore to obey the king, not judge him).

If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

Really, there is nothing in the text that even hints that Aerys knew about Lyanna.

[Ice Zombie]

So far. ;)

Haha yes

But I think the saddest ending possible would be westeros uniting against the others then everyone looking around at each other asking 'who's king/queen then?' You'd hope that facing annihilation at the hands of the others would give people some perspective.

[MtnLion]

Haha yes

But I think the saddest ending possible would be westeros uniting against the others then everyone looking around at each other asking 'who's king/queen then?' You'd hope that facing annihilation at the hands of the others would give people some perspective.

Precisely. And why would they want to change leaders after someone has led them to the defeat of the Others? It is not a seat that Jon desires, while many less worthy bums have sought to gain/hold it by bleeding the kingdom.

[Lyse Stark]

Well, if Jon turns out to be legit, and people learn of it, you can be certain that someone will want to try and put him on the throne. It might not be what Jon wants, but if someone else wants to put Jon on the IT, that could carry consequences for the entire realm, which could affect the storyline.

And it's possible that Jon rejects the IT, only to find that he has no choice in the matter. That would be bittersweet, Jon being King, but he longs for another, simpler life.

[Ice Zombie]

Precisely. And why would they want to change leaders after someone has led them to the defeat of the Others? It is not a seat that Jon desires, while many less worthy bums have sought to gain/hold it by bleeding the kingdom.

Good point,

I think the fact that Jon would hate ruling Westeros means he's probably the best suited to it.

He's been brought up in relative privilege compared to the vast majority of people in Westeros but he's never been absorbed into the ruling class. When he's had the chance to join them he's refused.

People would back him I think. But I don't think it'll be as a king in the current westerosi sense.

Weirdly, he'll be more like a dutiful version of Mance i suspect. In the sense that people will choose to follow him, not because he's got the backing of some families who have had power handed down to them but because he represents the people and has earned their loyalty.

[MtnLion]

Good point,

I think the fact that Jon would hate ruling Westeros means he's probably the best suited to it.

He's been brought up in relative privilege compared to the vast majority of people in Westeros but he's never been absorbed into the ruling class. When he's had the chance to join them he's refused.

People would back him I think. But I don't think it'll be as a king in the current westerosi sense.

Weirdly, he'll be more like a dutiful version of Mance i suspect. In the sense that people will choose to follow him, not because he's got the backing of some families who have had power handed down to them but because he represents the people and has earned their loyalty.

You mean like he earned the Lord Commander of the Night Watch, then accepted fealty of the wildlings . . .

[Ice Zombie]

You mean like he earned the Lord Commander of the Night Watch, then accepted fealty of the wildlings . . .

Yeah I know he's already on the path. The unknown is how his 'being stabbed by his brothers' issue is going to affect him. We might see a very different Jon that is, perhaps, not as worthy of loyalty. It has to change him somehow. Whether it's positive or negative...we've got a bit of a wait to find out :(

But his heritage doesn't have a part to play in that I don't think. I'd be interested to see if GRRM goes down the route of having R+L=J confirmed for the reader but not for Jon. I suppose you could argue that this is already the case, but I meant having it spelled out to the reader fairly explicitly in terms that can't be argued with. I suppose that could only happen with a Howland or 'Wylla' pov though.

[Fred of Ashai]

Only the king can give an order to the Kingsguard I believe has been very well documented. The primary mission of the Kingsguard is to guard the king is another very well documented facet.

This is not correct. I'll put this under spoiler tags in case anyone does not want to read an excerpt from The Princess and the Queen.

It was Lord Larys Strong, the Clubfoot, who spirited the king and his children out of the city when the queen's dragons first appeared in the skies above King's Landing. So as not to pass through any of the city gates, where they might be seen and remembered, Lord Larys led them out through some secret passage of Maegor the Cruel, of which only he had knowledge.

It was Lord Larys who decreed the fugitives should part company as well, so that even if one were taken, the others might win free. Ser Rickard Thorne was commanded to deliver two-year-old Prince Maelor to Lord Hightower. Princess Jaehaera, a sweet and simple girl of six, was put in the charge of Ser Willas Fell, who swore to bring her safely to Storm's End. Neither knew where the other was bound, so neither could betray the other if captured.

And only Larys himself knew that the king, stripped of his finery and clad in a salt-stained fisherman's cloak, had been concealed amongst a load of codfish on a fishing skiff in the care of a bastard knight with kin on Dragonstone.

A member of the Small Council orders the only two King's guards who are guarding the king to leave him and go do something else. They obey the order, and one of them goes further by swearing an oath to accomplish his mission. Both of them know that this will leave the king with no King's guard protection.

If your theory was correct, at least one of the two King's guards would have disobeyed the order and stayed with the king.

[MtnLion]

Yeah I know he's already on the path. The unknown is how his 'being stabbed by his brothers' issue is going to affect him. We might see a very different Jon that is, perhaps, not as worthy of loyalty. It has to change him somehow. Whether it's positive or negative...we've got a bit of a wait to find out :(

But his heritage doesn't have a part to play in that I don't think. I'd be interested to see if GRRM goes down the route of having R+L=J confirmed for the reader but not for Jon. I suppose you could argue that this is already the case, but I meant having it spelled out to the reader fairly explicitly in terms that can't be argued with. I suppose that could only happen with a Howland or 'Wylla' pov though.

Yes, he is definitely on the path. Of course we have "killed the boy", will "the man be born"? I think there is sufficient foreshadowing alluding to Jon becoming a stronger leader than he has been so far. Perhaps he will have a less forgiving nature, Bowen Marsh and company should have been dealt with in another way. That is a bit of growing that Jon needs to do, yet.

As you point out, the perceptive reader should already know that Jon is who we think that he is, whether accepted or not. The bit that GRRM mentioned about confirming one of the fan guesses in the next book is likely to be someone spilling the beans to Jon or someone else. IT could also be Jon finding an artifact in Lyanna's tomb that confirms things.

[Fred of Ashai]

If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

Really, there is nothing in the text that even hints that Aerys knew about Lyanna.

Brandon came to King's Landing yelling for Rhaegar to come out and die. I am sure that at some point Aerys asked why the heir to Winterfell was upset with Rhaegar and found out that Rhaegar had disappeared with Lyanna.

[MtnLion]

This is not correct. I'll put this under spoiler tags in case anyone does not want to read an excerpt from The Princess and the Queen.

It was Lord Larys Strong, the Clubfoot, who spirited the king and his children out of the city when the queen's dragons first appeared in the skies above King's Landing. So as not to pass through any of the city gates, where they might be seen and remembered, Lord Larys led them out through some secret passage of Maegor the Cruel, of which only he had knowledge.

It was Lord Larys who decreed the fugitives should part company as well, so that even if one were taken, the others might win free. Ser Rickard Thorne was commanded to deliver two-year-old Prince Maelor to Lord Hightower. Princess Jaehaera, a sweet and simple girl of six, was put in the charge of Ser Willas Fell, who swore to bring her safely to Storm's End. Neither knew where the other was bound, so neither could betray the other if captured.

And only Larys himself knew that the king, stripped of his finery and clad in a salt-stained fisherman's cloak, had been concealed amongst a load of codfish on a fishing skiff in the care of a bastard knight with kin on Dragonstone.

A member of the Small Council orders the only two King's guards who are guarding the king to leave him and go do something else. They obey the order, and one of them goes further by swearing an oath to accomplish his mission. Both of them know that this will leave the king with no King's guard protection.

If your theory was correct, at least one of the two King's guards would have disobeyed the order and stayed with the king.

Who is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and where is he?