Why are the Valyrians so fair-skinned?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Qartheen are just as pale, while Sarnori have/had brown skin. Sarnori live far to the North and Qartheen at a desert near the ocean. It'd probably be more correct if swapped, but they aren't.

And I doubt that they were all pure white, silver hair. We know the Targs all weren't and people visit cities. No one in Lys would be "pure" white skin, silver hair, so it's probably the same for Valyria, unless magic.

[Varys BrightBlackflayrme]

All Valyrians being descendants of Daynes is a interesting idea..... but i don't think it can really work. For one person or even a small family group to start a whole empire is a little far fetched I think. Also we know from the books that the Valyrians started out as sheep herders on Essos not in Westeros. Maybe as far back as even Old Ghis.

I think it would be cool if all of the Valyrians traits started only once they started there bond with dragons.

I would imagine that they would have had to have been of darker complexion from where they come from in the world. My theory is that the whole "blood of dragon" is actually pretty close to what happened. I think Valyrians might have actually did some short of blood magic and injected themselves with dragon blood some how. This in turn gave them control over dragons but also some odd side affects silver hair/ purple eyes and the occasional dragon baby. =)

I don't buy the whole real world cases of deformed babies as a explanation or that Danny's was simply dark magic used by Mirri Maz to explain dragon babies. Yes I think she was the cause of the baby being born dead but I do not think she made the baby deformed she just awoke what could have already happened to any Targ woman. I think that we keep learning about more and more cases it has to a Targ "side affect"

I really like the Proto Valyrian are Ancient Daynes theory. Thanks to whom ever came up with it. Cheers!

Daynes are said to have the oldest history. Some 10,000 years. Have the features and seem to be a nice combo of Stark and Targaryen.

Though Daynes have Violet. Targs can have blue, deep purple and indigo, lilac, angry and finally crazy eyes.

Starks have Grey. I think this symbolises Ice and the more sinister like the Boltons they become almost White.

I dont think the Targaryens pale skin and purple eyes have anything to do with climate and racisim, but more to do with fanstasy and sysmbolism. Earth and Water (ICE) Fire and Wind. And then shadow and Light and Blood. Cant think of what else.

They could have lived in the North and won the Battle for Dawn in Dorne and then, some stayed, some back North to build the wall and some went east to tend sheep in the fiery steps of Mount Doom.

It is true there are not many Daynes as far as we know, but there are not many Starks or Targaryens either. Daynes are ruddy mysterious. More ruddily mysterious than the Starks or Targaryens. Which is mysteriously ruddy.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Perhaps this is more evidence that the popular theory of dragons originating in Ashai is true. Since the city lies almost perpetually in the darkness that would explain the people being pale.

[ummester]

Perhaps this is more evidence that the popular theory of dragons originating in Ashai is true.

Yep - and I'm going with Valyrians (possible Daynes also) have magical genetic traits that originate from dragonrider experimentation in Asshai. This could also explain the Quarthians, they might just be a subset of what was once greater Asshai.

This is why Quaith goes onto Dany about remembering what she is - I think she is a breed of people created specifically for dragon bonding, in Asshai.

Since the city lies almost perpetually in the darkness that would explain the people being pale.

I'm leaning more towards the darkness over Asshai being related to some ancient event, like the doom of Valyria (that happened previously in Asshai).

[GottfreyUndRoy]

Founder effect, most likely. Sheep herders like to keep it in the flock, metaphorically and literally. Not sure if I buy the Asshai'i theory- it's explicitly stated that nothing really lives in Asshai'i. Maybe something did in the past, but then it would be before its period of smoky skies, therefore no pale skin, though it would certainly explain Melisandre's appearance.

[Justin Amey]

The Valyrian Peninsula was located in a warm, sunny Mediterranean climate, yet the Valyrians were distinguished by their pale skin and hair. Meanwhile, the Rhoynar, who originate in a region to the north of the Valyrian Peninsula, are olive/brown-skinned. This does not make a lot of sense, and could be seen as unconsciously racist (mighty sorcerers and conquerors must be white). What are your thoughts?

I could have save you a lot of trouble and answer with just one word:

MAGIC!!!!

:lol: :lmao: :laugh: :rofl: :smug:

[ummester]

Founder effect, most likely. Sheep herders like to keep it in the flock, metaphorically and literally. Not sure if I buy the Asshai'i theory- it's explicitly stated that nothing really lives in Asshai'i. Maybe something did in the past, but then it would be before its period of smoky skies, therefore no pale skin, though it would certainly explain Melisandre's appearance.

Founder effect stills works if Targs are a race born of Asshai'i magic.

Mutated dragons and demons are rumoured to still live in Asshai, north of the city, where the shadowbinders walk. I take the meaning as nothing 'natural' lives there. Only enhanced/magical things do - but they often fail/mutate.

[GottfreyUndRoy]

But there isn't really any reason to invoke Asshai'i magic. Shepard's could've easily migrated from the coast of the Shivering Sea for some reason or other, and arrived in Valyria. This would tell us that Valyrians would only have been in Valyria for a few hundred years, which doesn't seem unlikely at all to me.

[ummester]

Except the shepherds weren't known to come from the north, rather from the Valyrian Peninsular to the south.

It makes more sense (given a magical world) that whichever magic created the dragons also had something to do with the people that could bond with dragons, than the people being some random shepherds that migrated from the north coast, hung around in the south a bit and managed to bond with some hidden dragons just coz.

[John Doe]

Because Tolkien Elves, really.

[ummester]

More like Lovecraftian/Howardian eldritch beasties and sorcery - but yea.

[GottfreyUndRoy]

There is no discussion of the source of the Valyrians. They did not spring out of the earth. They came from somewhere. Why not the Shivering Sea? Shepards are found everywhere in the world, and besides, if they all migrated south we wouldn't expect to find any large shepard populations in the north.

Personally, I don't like to much magic in my Planetos. What is really appealing about the series to me is how magic always lies on the periphery- for the most part, it seems like it could be an actual planet, with well developed cultures and mythology.

The reason they bonded was because they found them. That's what canon holds- Shepards came across Dragons in the 14 fires and tamed them.

[GottfreyUndRoy]

I adore muh Lovecraft, but my favorite stories are the ones which only allude to the Greater Cosmic Forces, like the Rats in the Walls or the Whisperer in Darkness.

[ummester]

There is no discussion of the source of the Valyrians. They did not spring out of the earth. They came from somewhere. Why not the Shivering Sea? Shepards are found everywhere in the world, and besides, if they all migrated south we wouldn't expect to find any large shepard populations in the north.

Well, this thread is potentially a discussion on the source of the Valyrians.

If they came from the Shiverring Sea, or Northern Essos, they would be more or less like Andals, wouldn't they?

[GottfreyUndRoy]

No, not really. The Andals inhabited the territory between Braavos and Lorath. They didn't even make it past Norvos- so between the Hills of Norvos and the forests of Qohor could be a potential source. Or maybe they are the ancestors of the Sarnath, or the Ifqevueron.

[voodooqueen126]

There is blond hair in certain pacific populations-in the Solomon Islands (with the darkest skins outside Africa)- that is a random mutation, it's quite beautiful and isn't accompanied by the negative traits (ie pale skin and blue eyes) that blond hair is in Europeans. Perhaps the red hair that Esau and that red haired Egyptian mummy had was quite a different gene from the negative (ie cancer and acne genes) that red hair in Europe has, in that it was presumably accompanied by sensibly melanined skin.

So perhaps melanin and pigment works differently on Planetos: the Starks and the Sarnori have darker hair than the Quartheen, Lannisters and Valyrians, who all live in warmer/sunnier climates.

Perhaps purple eyes are less prone to eye cancer on Planetos than brown eyes?

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I think that most of the population of Planetos is what on our planet would be called "Caucasian/European," with the exception of the Summer Islanders, the people of Yi Ti, and the Ibbenese, all of whom annoyed me as I read about them (they bordered on "noble savages"), so I'm VERY glad he doesn't feature them more. Even darker-skinned peoples seem to have distinctly European physical characteristics, or Caucasian at least -- perhaps some of the Rhoynar looked like the lighter-skinned people from the Indian subcontinent of our world, hence, the casting of Ellaria with one of my fave actresses, Indira Varma (who is half white and half Indian).

But that's the case for most of high fantasy, isn't it? I read other kinds of books to learn more about other people and cultures. I don't expect an author who's rewriting the Wars of the Roses or Tolkien to write about "people of color" (whatever that means), and I'm actually glad he didn't, given the few "exotic" peoples he wrote up in this universe. Glad he's sticking to various white/European/Caucasian characteristics. I'd love to read a great fantasy based on Chinese or Jamaican or Polynesian myth someday, but this is not the story or the author.

GRRM can do what he wants, it's his world. It's clear he's writing from a medieval European POV, and writing only one corner of the world. It's clear from TWOIAF there are parts of the world that his characters will never visit, and we're only getting his characters' POVs on it. We're only getting legends from the "edge" of the world, so for all we know, there could be an advanced civilization with brown, purple, red or green skinned people on the other side of the planet. Just doesn't apply.

(For my money, the Valyrians are described as having a very alien look to me. Not just an Aryan "master race" but the ideal of "pale" taken to the extreme.)

[AzureOwl]

Qartheen are just as pale, while Sarnori have/had brown skin. Sarnori live far to the North and Qartheen at a desert near the ocean. It'd probably be more correct if swapped, but they aren't.

The World of Ice and Fire supports the hypothesis that migration patterns are to blame for any inconsistencies in the coloring of different peoples.

Fair skinned peoples like the First Men and the Andals presumably originated in the Grasslands and eventually ended up living in sun scorched Dorne without it darkening their skin in any significant manner until they got an infusion of Rhoynar blood.

The ultra-pale Qaathi originated southeast of the Silver Sea and then got pushed into the extremely sunny Red Waste region. And after centuries upon centuries they’re still pale enough to be called Milk Men.

It’s likely the Valyrians came from the same stock as the Andals and Qaathi, before moving over the Painted Mountains.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

(For my money, the Valyrians are described as having a very alien look to me. Not just an Aryan "master race" but the ideal of "pale" taken to the extreme.)

To be fair though, if you look at the depiction of Valyrians from the World Book (which is about as canon as you are going to get in terms of artwork) they do look pretty "Aryan master race".

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

To be fair though, if you look at the depiction of Valyrians from the World Book (which is about as canon as you are going to get in terms of artwork) they do look pretty "Aryan master race".

The paintings of Dany and the generic pre-Doom Valyrians look pretty creepy to me.