Brahood Witout Manners Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I was excited while reading it. Felt bad about feeling good...not sure what all of that means. I'm ok with it, and myself, now though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Haven't ever missed Jeoff since. It made me a fan of the Thorn Queen, and she's the only reason I'm sort of saddened at the thought of her family's upcoming reversal of fortune when the crown alliance gets whacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yolkboy Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Choking to death isn't that painful. I choked to death myself (apart from the Malteser melted in my throat and I didn't actually die). It was more panic than pain fwiw, Joff got off lightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Bean Corbray Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Disappointed that he never had to face up to incontrovertible truth that he was an inbred bastard and complete fraud of a king. And disappointed that his demise wasn't Arya pulling out Needle and giving him more holes than a hunk of swiss cheese while he sobbed and whimpered and begged for his miserable worthless life. But as it is, at least the fucker is dead and died right in the middle of what he thought was his triumph. And the Tyrells instantly became my favorite house for taking him out. <3 Marge, <3 Olenna, <3 Garlan The Gallant. Best Family. Slight pinge of sympathy for Cersei having to watch her son die right in front of her and having the sheer horror sink in that she is helpless and unable to do anything about it, because that's the ultimate nightmare for a parent. Even when the parent is as shitty as Cersei and the offspring is as shitty as Joffrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modbelle Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 In a weird way, it was the perfect death. Joffrey wasn't a hero or even a warrior and he doesn't get their deaths. When Stannis's men landed, Joffrey went inside, sheltered by his mother's command while others perished and died. The death feels like poetic justice or karma in regards to Cersei. She had the wine her cousin Lancel gave Robert extra potent and added the drink added in Robert's demise, and now a drink holds the poison her son drinks and chokes on. Joffrey dies in front of her while she can do nothing; and similarly, Joffrey who could never do anything with his two hands but relied on his soldiers and grandfather, can do nothing to save himself but claws at his throat ineffectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I agree with that in regards to Joffrey, but I cannot bring myself to feel sorry for a woman who did much to bring that event upon herself and her son, that remains unrepentent. Who also continues to conspire to do evil upon others. If she truly regretted her actions, if she understood her transgressions and if truly sought redemption then my sympathy could kick in for her. As it is though, she's as self absorbed and full of hate as ever and increasingly delusional. ie: I once thought The Hound was a piece of poo of epic proportions, but he seeks redemption and to better himself as a human so he has actually become a character I like very much, someone I would like to know if I lived in that world. Cersei seeks no such thing and still believes she's better than everyone and entitled, and is anything but someone I would like to know. GRRM has done well in writing the insane self absorbed, full fo hubris woman with Cersei. Like Viserys, she has little to no redeeming qualities as a human. I can forgive, but Cersei deserves neither forgiveness nor mercy at this point. Perhaps that may change, as her story isn't yet finished, but I doubt it will. Did I say she deserves forgiveness? There is a difference between forgiving someone and feeling sorry for them. I felt sorry for Cersei during the PW even though I don't forgive her for anything she's done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Bean Corbray Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 There is a difference between forgiving someone and feeling sorry for them. I felt sorry for Cersei during the PW even though I don't forgive her for anything she's done. Word. It's amazing how often and how repeatedly this has to be spelled out for people. [by which I mean everywhere, not just in this thread or even just on this forum.] Sympathy is not the same as forgiveness and forgiveness is not the same as exoneration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sertravisredbeard Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Too quick. He was never told explicitly that the things he'd done were wrong. He needed to know there was a reason why people like Ned, Robb and Stannis felt wronged by him. He wasn't killed just because his wife's family didn't like him. He was killed because they, like everyone besides Cersei, realized he was a piece of shit that needed to die before the realm got even more ruined because of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeepBlueSky Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Choking to death isn't that painful. I choked to death myself (apart from the Malteser melted in my throat and I didn't actually die). It was more panic than pain fwiw, Joff got off lightly. Uh sure. If you think pain is the only operative thing that can make dying a horrible experience. I've involuntarily gone without air for a bit of time myself and long enough that I got to the point I was actually concerned I might be checking out, and based on that experience I'll say that choking would be a horrible way to die. The longer it goes on the worse it is. There are worse ways to check out for sure (being impaled, torture, burned at the stake, etc), but choking/suffocating is near the top of bad ways to check out for me. I'll take a lot of pain and be able to breathe so long as the death is at least near as quick as suffocation would be opposed to choking to death anyday.And Joffrey may have been in a lot of pain. We don't know exactly what he felt as the result of the poisoning. We just know the results and how he appeared as he died. Unless you wanted to torture the kid and draw out his death, choking/suffocating is near as bad as it gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeepBlueSky Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Word. It's amazing how often and how repeatedly this has to be spelled out for people. [by which I mean everywhere, not just in this thread or even just on this forum.] Sympathy is not the same as forgiveness and forgiveness is not the same as exoneration. I never said it was.But unless I find what someone has done forgivable they will have no sympathy from me. I think you must misinterpret a lot of people if you think the differences need to be spelled out often, as while forgiveness and sympathy are two different things, they are often related, often interrelated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady of Dragonstone Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Too quick. He was never told explicitly that the things he'd done were wrong. He needed to know there was a reason why people like Ned, Robb and Stannis felt wronged by him. He wasn't killed just because his wife's family didn't like him. He was killed because they, like everyone besides Cersei, realized he was a piece of shit that needed to die before the realm got even more ruined because of him. I feel the same way. I was expecting him to be taken out sooner than later. Even though he was technically a child, I have no ability to find sympathy for him. I have a lot of respect for Olenna for having the balls to bring him down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I think the trouble of finding sympathy for Joffrey is compounded by the reality that he was awful to the very end, as how the last thing he was doing immediately before he started choking was tormenting his uncle and before that Sansa. While, at least when Jaime lost his hand he had at actually done something decent beforehand while for Theon's punishments they seemed to follow nothing in particular that he did and only occur randomly when Ramsay is feeling sadistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roddy the Ruin Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I think the trouble of finding sympathy for Joffrey is compounded by the reality that he was awful to the very end, as how the last thing he was doing immediately before he started choking was tormenting his uncle and before that Sansa. While, at least when Jaime lost his hand he had at actually done something decent beforehand while for Theon's punishments they seemed to follow nothing in particular that he did and only occur randomly when Ramsay is feeling sadistic.plus the very last thing he did was sign Tyrion's death warrant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tellus Explorer Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I was annoyed the way Joffery died, I honestly wished for more to happen, he should have felt the wrath for killing Ned Stark, and even Ros. -_-I was hoping Arya would have been able to do it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I've talked to a few people with different thoughts on how/when he died so I'm curious to find out what others think about it.This is one of my personal favourite parts to read, because as much as I wanted him to die, and was looking forward to his death... when it came I felt alot of pity.As he was clawing at his throat I wasn't thinking "ohh yay there goes the evil king". I was thinking that that was a young boy (13?) who was dying, and was terrifed knowing it, and his mother witnessing it but being able to not do any thing to help. I love this chapter because it can show even when people get what they deserve it isnt always pretty to witness it.So I'm curious if any one one else felt this way? If any one felt sorry for him in that moment, knowing he deserves to die but still feeling bad for him.I think I remember reading an interview with GRRM saying that that was what he was going for, to make what could have been a happy triumphant moment (death of evil king) into a sad/scary moment of a child dying before his mother. But yeah cant find this interview so I could be mistaken (if any one has seen one along those lines please feel free to link it :) ).He succeeded 200%. Both Joffrey and Cersei are terrible, terrible people, but I still felt pity towards both of them at that moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Bastard Snow Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I only felt bad for the halfman.Tyrion is only ever guilty of being a dwarf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Time Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 One of my most read chapters in ASoS. I felt nothing but smugness that he died so pitifully and that Cersei had to watch it. **** them. I only wish a Stark or Tyrion had truly done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sordelor Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I felt a bit pity, but not that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 And the Tyrells instantly became my favorite house for taking him out. <3 Marge, <3 Olenna, <3 Garlan The Gallant. Best Family. A fellow Tyrell fan! :grouphug: I was initially dissapointed because no Stark got to kill him but I think his death was more fitting. It's like he was just a bug for the Tyrells, he was just a small obstacle for them and they just removed him, no problem. I love those magnificent bastards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Bastard Snow Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 The North already pulled a "Rat Cook" on the Freys so all that is left is some sweet sweet revenge on the Bolton's.Personally I want Nymeria and Ghost to rack up some Frey/Bolton kills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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