High Sparrow

[Jojen Dayne-Reed]

It occurs to me that HR may have gone to KL because jojen told him too.

It's also very possible that mrs Reed is dead and that jojen told HR he wouldn't see either kid again. Which means we have a northern lord with Absolutely nothing to lose getting ready to do god (old or new) knows what. I'm very excited to see how this plays out. Because it could end red wedding style but you know for the whole keep. Sooo Red Keep style.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

It occurs to me that HR may have gone to KL because jojen told him too.

It's also very possible that mrs Reed is dead and that jojen told HR he wouldn't see either kid again. Which means we have a northern lord with Absolutely nothing to lose getting ready to do god (old or new) knows what. I'm very excited to see how this plays out. Because it could end red wedding style but you know for the whole keep. Sooo Red Keep style.

Let me get this straight, Reed is going to Kings Landing in part because he has nothing left to lose after his son told him he'd never see his children again. Why not go North with your children instead of going south were you are so upset over not seeing them again that you have 'nothing to lose'.

[A Bastard Snow]

Maybe because he knows he is not needed in the North.

[SpringKing]

Do you not see how ridiculous that is, a Greenseer to tell how to get revenge on Robbs death. Robb has only just died, surely the first thing to do is warn Robb. And where was these Greenseers when Ned was imprisoned and executed or to stop many of the deluge of crap that has came the Starks way?

What we have seen is that a Greenseers prediction is only clear after the event. Predicting Reek would kill Bran and Rickon or Winterfell being swept away by the sea does nothing to stop them happening. It would have to be pretty damn specific for Howland to abandon his home on the off chance the dream came true in the exact same way it was dreamt.

Howland Reed is in Kings Landing pretending to be someone else only to tell everyone that Ned was only pretending to be Jons father? Why would anyone believe that?

Almost as ridiculous as HR's kids leading a 9 year old cripple on oafback into the deep wilderness to meet the greenseer-in-chief? As ridiculous as a red priest who is pledged to defend the commoners, and who can revive the dead, but only revives 2 people amidst a holocaust? A dwarf who waddles but is still a good warrior?

Once we meet an ice monster in the AGOT prologue, the concept of "ridiculous" needs be set aside.

[A Bastard Snow]

Spring you forgot that said Dwarf when he first talks to Jon does a backflip "Oh, bleed that," the little man said. He pushed himself off the ledge into empty air. Jon gasped, then watched with awe as Tyrion Lannister spun around in a tight ball, landed lightly on his hands, then vaulted backwards onto his legs.

[Petyr Patter]

The High Sparrow works best nameless. He is the grassroots movement to upend and punish the powerful who either allowed or abetted in the rapine of the War of the 5 Kings. He isn't an opportunist who saw a chance to seize power (though that is exactly what he did), but better thought of as the chaos created by Tywin, Littlefinger, and Varys going in a direction none of them foresaw or could control. Cersei tried to used their religious fervor both in her war against Stannis and her personal vendetta against Margaery Tyrell. The latter backfired.

If he is just another person with an agenda and a price, well then he could be bought or dealt with. He isn't.

[HexMachina]

CNlant quote so will just answer generally.

Someone said he could be in KL to announce Jon is the rightful heir. Cool. Dont you think it would be better to tell Jon first? You know, since revealing this would endanger him?

Someone said Lady Reed could have died leadig him to go South with nothing to lose. Okay, but then who is ruling the Neck in his absence? No-one?

I dont want to feed the idea, since I dont believe this theory at all, but since noone else has said it I will. Howland thinks his children are both dead, which is why if he left the Neck he would not go to them. But I feel pretty confident that he is not the HS

[hardhome]

There some things to be considering HS's behaviour.

We only see him interact with Cersei and Brienne. Brienne indicates he is an idealist which is how she mostly sees the world. Cersei sees him mostly as a irritant that can be pliable to her cause if handled properly. However Cersei is a horrible judge of character and Brienne has much more experience dealing with smallfolk that her observations can be given higher weight.

Because she thinks he can be used for her purposes and can be controlled gives him more power but also a glimpse into her personality and he doesn't like what he sees.

I personally wanted the HS to be from house Reyne but regardless if he is Rayne or Reed or common born, Cersei's unlikability, cruelty and incompetence would make anyone not like her and if they don't think she'll hurt them act accordingly

[SpringKing]

Spring you forgot that said Dwarf when he first talks to Jon does a backflip "Oh, bleed that," the little man said. He pushed himself off the ledge into empty air. Jon gasped, then watched with awe as Tyrion Lannister spun around in a tight ball, landed lightly on his hands, then vaulted backwards onto his legs.

Tyrion's acrobatic ability always seemed at odds with other descriptions of him being generally awkward. When I first read that scene I thought 'oh no, here comes a midget martial artist'. But Tyrion's circus performances with Penny dont feature much gymnastic flair. Regardless, fighting at close quarters with edged weapons puts a premium on size, speed, and brute strength. None of which are Tyrion's attributes.

The High Sparrow works best nameless. He is the grassroots movement to upend and punish the powerful who either allowed or abetted in the rapine of the War of the 5 Kings. He isn't an opportunist who saw a chance to seize power (though that is exactly what he did), but better thought of as the chaos created by Tywin, Littlefinger, and Varys going in a direction none of them foresaw or could control. Cersei tried to used their religious fervor both in her war against Stannis and her personal vendetta against Margaery Tyrell. The latter backfired.

If he is just another person with an agenda and a price, well then he could be bought or dealt with. He isn't.

A nameless low-born, otherwise insignificant leader of a populist uprising was my initial take on the HS too. A commoner for the commoners. A truly small person championing the smallfolk. It seemed so appropriate that my reaction to the HR=HS theory was 'tinfoil for sure'. Except that re-reading Cersei's meeting with him revealed the swamp floor and greengrocer hints. Then thinking on how little was known about HR brought to mind the KLT parallel. Argue all we want about the murky motives and mechanics of HR=HS, the clues remain clear and immutable.

The Dunk&Egg 'Hedge Knight' theme was that true knights protect the weak and innocent. The BWBs efforts in this respect, while generally laudible, dont nearly meet the need. Whoever the HS is, it was about time that the low-born took an active role in the game instead of serving only as cannon fodder and collateral casualties.

The HS was 'bought' in horsetrading the crown's debt for reconstituting the Faith Militant. As deep in debt as the monarchy is, the Seven werent going to see that debt repaid anytime soon.

Someone said he could be in KL to announce Jon is the rightful heir. Cool. Dont you think it would be better to tell Jon first? You know, since revealing this would endanger him?

If Jon is going to be the story's 'big reveal', for dramatic effect it needs to happen late in the game. There are other ways alert him (and the reader). A vision from Mel, Meera, Lyanna's tomb. Tyrion's remark that 'wonders attend the birth of kings' may mean a double reveal, HR as HS and Jon the Targ.

[HexMachina]

My point was that why would Howland reveal the truth about Jon before Jon himself knows? This was what someone else suggested as the reason.for HR in Kings Landing, only.I cant quote them. It would make much more sense if Howland told Jon about his.lineage before revealing it.to anyone else, particularly given the danger it puts Jon in. Which then brings me back to the question; why would Howland be in KL?

[SpringKing]

Its not like Jon's middle name isnt 'Danger' already. HR likely wont confirm Jon's heritage until Jon is in KL. Or at least until it's been 'officially' announced in the narrative. If HR=HS then his motives are bringing Cersei to justice (if only for the Stark's sake), and removing Tommen from the throne to make way for Jon in the end. All the while defending the interests of the smallfolk, which he literally, and metaphorically, is.

As far as 'making sense' - it would have made the most sense for Ned to have informed Jon before he made the apparently irrevocable decison to pledge to the NW. The achilles heel of fantasy is that simple logic proportionately suffers the more unrealistic the story gets.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Its not like Jon's middle name isnt 'Danger' already. HR likely wont confirm Jon's heritage until Jon is in KL. Or at least until it's been 'officially' announced in the narrative. If HR=HS then his motives are bringing Cersei to justice (if only for the Stark's sake), and removing Tommen from the throne to make way for Jon in the end. All the while defending the interests of the smallfolk, which he literally, and metaphorically, is.

As far as 'making sense' - it would have made the most sense for Ned to have informed Jon before he made the apparently irrevocable decison to pledge to the NW. The achilles heel of fantasy is that simple logic proportionately suffers the more unrealistic the story gets.

Surely news will reach Kings Landing of the death of the Lord Commander of the Watch, what does Howland Reed do then, enjoy the Kings Landing lifestyle?

And I love the fact that Cersei and Tommen who you feel the Starks need vengeance against. Roose and Ramsay gets a pass do they, while Cersei, who was not even aware of the Red Wedding and who wanted Ned spared gets the focus.

And it makes absolutely no sense that the Faith Militant would support Jon as King, no matter who holds the top position. Ignoring the complete lack of evidence to show that Jon is someone other than Ned Starks bastard or any proof that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married you are ignoring why the Faith Militant were so pissed. They hated the Targs practice of incest and polygamy.

[Jasta11]

Almost as ridiculous as HR's kids leading a 9 year old cripple on oafback into the deep wilderness to meet the greenseer-in-chief? As ridiculous as a red priest who is pledged to defend the commoners, and who can revive the dead, but only revives 2 people amidst a holocaust? A dwarf who waddles but is still a good warrior?

Once we meet an ice monster in the AGOT prologue, the concept of "ridiculous" needs be set aside.

See, that kind of strawman is what needs to be addressed. Bran is a powerful greenseer and plays an explicitely important role in the serie's myth arc. Thoros can't revive everyone because it would obviously strain him, and ressurection isin't like in Dungeons and Dragons where you slap a spell on someone and off they go, there is a price. As for Tyrion, Martin not understanding dwarfism doesn't mean that any silly plot development can happen.

You're basically going ''it's fantasy, anything goes'' which is an attitude that can quickly get out of hand. To act in such a strange way and to have such a complicted plan, HR would need motives and knowledge, and as far as we know he's got neither. And practically the only evidence for this is a) the HS's apearance, which barely counts and b) some words taken out of context and that could mean anything.

And I certainly hope people aren't trying to imply he's trying to use the Faith Militant to install on the throne the offspring of a polygamous Targaryen marriage at best, and a bastard born out of wedlock into the belly of a woman that was abducted at worst. There's character derailment, and then there's wanting to bend all the laws of the universe in order to make your theory fit somehow.

[SpringKing]

If Jon is dead then HR continues to enjoy tormenting the Lannisters. Their downfall isolates the the Freys and exposes them to attainder. The Boltons arent getting a pass from Stannis. The Faith will be satisfied with any monarch who can ensure the welfare of the smallfolk, as Jon has done for the Wildings, as long as the Faith isnt subverted in the process. Which makes Stannis more the outsider than Jon because the God of Light, being the new god on the block, is more inimicable to the Faith than the old gods.

There's character derailment, and then there's wanting to bend all the laws of the universe in order to make your theory fit somehow.

Wasnt me who bent all the laws of the universe to create the dragons, wargs, greenseers and blood magic ;} HR's motives for becoming HS are pretty evident - establishing power within spitting distance of the arch enemy without having to lay siege or storm the walls. "Mudmen are sneaks" Dunno how 'character derailment' can be claimed when so little is known about HR except that what we know most about him, the KLT story, involved a similarly spectacular hidden identity ploy. The spycraft involved can either be attributed to greenseer premonition or simply the chief crannogman being as crafty and cunning as Tywin, Varys or LF. After the fact, it wont matter any more than any of the other unbelievably serendipitous or miraculous events in ASOIAF. In that sense, resistance to arbitrary violations of reality is futile, if epic fantasy is to be enjoyed.

"some words taken out of context and that could mean anything"

The context to the word clues about the HS's identity wasnt removed. The mystery about the HS's identity is established by Cersei and Taena before he is met. Therefor the setting, swampy floor, in which he's met is significant. The 'greengrocer' remark directly questions his identity. Hidden identity is at the heart of the KLT story. Similarities in the HS's appearance to the Reed kids, at least as definitive as those of Jaqen and the alchemist, only furthers establishing his identity.

The more the context is considered, the less likely what we know about the HS could mean anything. The author offers many word puzzles that always mean something, and usually includes enough signals to figure out what that something is. Based on the signals we're given, HR=HS is an entirely plausible solution.

[Jojen Dayne-Reed]

Let me get this straight, Reed is going to Kings Landing in part because he has nothing left to lose after his son told him he'd never see his children again. Why not go North with your children instead of going south were you are so upset over not seeing them again that you have 'nothing to lose'.

No no no. The idea is that HR went to KLbecause jojen told him to. And likely told him "goodbye. I'll never see you again."

Which leaves us with a man who has not much going for him except bloody vengeance who commands a bunch of northern warriors dressed as sparrows and more flocking in every day.

This sounds like a scenario that will lead to a fun read.

This requires the theory to be true (which even I will admit is as possible as not)

[thelittledragonthatcould]

No no no. The idea is that HR went to KLbecause jojen told him to. And likely told him "goodbye. I'll never see you again."

Which leaves us with a man who has not much going for him except bloody vengeance...

So why not accompany your children if one of them, the greenseer, tells you he will never see them again. or does it make more sense to accept the death of your children, wish them a bon voyage and then go to Kings Landing for bloody vengeance against the people who did not kill your children.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

If Jon is dead then HR continues to enjoy tormenting the Lannisters.

But this where your logic falls down. With Cersei out the picture Kevan became the Lord Regent. A much stronger leader than Cersei who actually made the Lannister-Tyrell alliance firmer. Cersei was the one derailing the kingdom with her paranoia.

Unless Howland Reed is working in tandem with Varys, another man who is in Kings Landing disguised and planning another Targ King, then he could not of possibly planned it.

[SpringKing]

For HR to do what beyond the Wall? Attend to Jojen on his weirwood throne until the end of his days just to be close to his son? Or fulfill his moral obligation to his liege by avenging his death in the nerve center of the enemy HQ? No question that family is a strong obligation, trumped only by duty and honor.

That Kevan succeeded Cersei in no way subtracts from the punishment the HS metes out to her. Its irrelevant who Tommen's Hand is when the HS's game intends to remove Tommen from the throne.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

This theory is pure crackpot and makes zero sense and simply does not fit.

[kilthan]

I much prefer the High Sparrow being No Man (Odysseus) blinding Polyphemus the Cyclops. He has effectively made Cersei a non-threat, humiliated and de-clawed. When asked how she lost power, what can she say but, "No man did this to me". The HS has no name, he is was no one of consequence. And much like Polyphemus, the responsibility for Cersei's downfall lies with herself. Arrogance, paranoia, and not being half as clever as she thought she was. Had she not been so intent on getting rid of Margery she wouldn't have put herself in the High Sparrow's power.

No, the HS is not Howland Reed. He is a nobody, and a nobody can bring down a giant where a great warrior or noble lord would fail.

Further: When David slew Goliath, he was a nobody. The theme of a nobody slaying giants is seen throughout history. Martin seems to use these sorts of themes himself.