Tyrion & Shae

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

as you can see Shae was a whore because she ran away from an abusive home life, she was not some gold digger but a camp follower. The offer Tyrion made her she would have been mad to turn him down. But once they get to KL things go to shit he takes away the jewels he gifted her as payment, the manse he had promised, the fine silks and wants to make her a kitchen wench - exactly what her father had done to her, here 's some more obversations about that scene when he tells her she is to be a servant.

eventually the situation in KL reaches boiling point and he throws a glass of wine against a wall so close to her that she is hit by the shards, he tells her he is taking away the nice things he has paid for her services with and she must be a kitchen maid in the Red Keep, she protests and reminds him her father made her scrub pots and that is why she ran away, she hated it as she hated his cock inside her. He could at this point give her her severance pay and send her on her way, but instead he smacks her across the face, she has scolded him that he is a grown man and other men keep bedwarmers and why can't he. She changes her voice it becomes wooden, "Beg pardon m'lord" "I never meant to be impudent" So she is taken to the red keep and becomes a servant, though still has to have sex with Tyrion, now if she loved him and they were a couple and she was begging to be there and will endure the misery of servitude in order to be by his side, well that would be a different tale. I think its the one he's telling himself. But its probably not the one Shae is. The only person whom she gets to interact with in the Manse the singer is sent away and eventually murdered by Tyrion.

Tyrion even as I've said presumes to marry her off without her consent! in what world does she owe him anything? if anything is owed its a lot of Dragons to Shae as he never bloody paid her, and what she did receive was taken away!!

[Cas Stark]

I totally understand WHY he killed her, I just am a bit sickened by the readership section who say she deserved to die or that seem to think she owed him something? She owes him nothing, she was doing her job, he was paying her for that job by way of goods but he never actually gives her cash, which she would need in order to leave him. She is essentially a bird in a gilded cage, and even worse once he demotes her from concubine to house maid she is actually just an abused servant. He wanted to be loved so he pays a whore to "love" him. I mean its really naive of him to expect that prostitute to actually fall in love with him, especially as he has trapped her in a dangerous position, and as I've pointed out previously what exactly are her alternatives? go back to a life of grime and squaller in the camps where she could be murdered at any point anyway, imagine if you are the camp follower who has the misfortune to have Gregor Clegane open your tent flap one night? or Biter? she did what she had to in a trial that was a kangaroo court anyway who the hell can blame her, do her detractors feel she ought to have laid down her life rather than "betray" him?

[Chillboy]

Why do you guys feel with Shae? Why dont you care for the real victioms in aSoIaF likeTheon, all the innocent that get massacred, Elia, the child sandor and all the others?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

after he smacks her in the face, he tells her "That was ill done" "on both our parts" so after he hits her he tells her it was her own fault!! what for exactly? for telling him she does't want to be made to scrub pots and saying that she could be a bedwarmer, that tons of men have them in the Red Keep, and that he was a grown up and should stand up to his father. So for speaking out of turn she deserved that smack? Good golly.

He tells her all about Tysha, as if this excuses his behaviour? or is he trying tit for tat after she reminded him of her abuse at her fathers hands? Look love i know your daddy raped you and made you a slave, But my dad had my wife raped and raped some more, gosh I even raped her myself! so you don't have it as bad as me love. So please no more talk of teh Tower of the Hand, you'll only be in the kitchen a short while, and then I'll get you a manse again and more silks. She says her hands will be red and cracked and he won't want her any more. This is fair enough, hows she to trust his word? He could easily leave her to rot in the kitchens and get a new whore, one with softer hands and fewer lines from scrubbing and getting up at the crack of dawn to light ovens.

She eventually says I am yours to command m'lord. he leaves and says I will send for you.

Even Tyrion mentions (more than once) that he can't read her during this chapter, that she is not giving away her feelings. Could that be because she is unhappy and a good whore doesn't show her upset to the man who pays her. Well he's about to stop paying her and take away all the payment she's had so far. so she can't even sell her jewels and silver and gowns and get out of dodge.

So she says she does not want to go to the keep and scrub pots and he smacks her across the face? Really lovely. I bet she was so happy with him..

As well after he recovers from his injury's after the battle, Varys arranges for Tyrion to see Shae in his chambers.

she places her hands over his eyes and is already naked. she kisses him hungrily and does not even seem to notice his scars. she insists he fuck her right away and mounts him she fucks him fast yelling my giant my giant my giant he quickly comes, she grins wickedly, she asks about her jewels, can she have them back? where are they? Varys would not give them to her, what would have happened to them if Tyrion had died?

Seems to me that she wants to get it over and done with and then wants to know where her payment is before his cock is even limp. He tells her she can stay with Lady Lolly if she likes but it would be safer if she left the city, she says I do not want to leave you promised me a manse and my silks and jewels. I want to stay I want to go to the wedding feast Symon has been telling me how spectacular it will be. Tyrion says no she can not and eventually it is left at that she returns to Lollys and he to give the order to find Symon.

You could look at this exchange and think she desperatly missed him , that she does not indeed mind the scar and that she was desperate to fuck him out of desire, that she begged to stay as she want to be with him.

Or you could look at it this way, she wants to get the sex out of the way as fast as possible, she wants her payment back, she wants the further payment he had promised her of a manse and a nice cushy life as concubine. She is not happy that he refuses her these things. He tells her she ought to leave but does not offer to pay her her owed jewels and anything she has earned since the time in the manse.

She asked to be allowed to the wedding yes this is folly, but she wants to be able to dress up and have fun this is not a crime, just foolish. Maybe she was hoping to find a new patron at the wedding.

he completely avoids telling her where her jewels are or when he will return them, or even if he will. It would appear to Shae that he has no intention of ever giving them back. even after she reminds him he said a Lannister always pays his debts. Towards the end of their exchange she asks him if he is her lion still, her giant of Lannister? this is after she is told to hurry and dress and return to lollys. Is she asking if she is still his concubine in spite of the lowly position of handmaid she has been placed in? or is it a sweet nothing between lovers? he replies i am, and you're.... she butts in "your Whore." A reminder that this is what she is, not his lady love. she says I know if you could I'd be your lady and you'd take me to the feast, but this can never be etc. But assures him she likes being his whore, "just keep me,my lion and keep me safe." is she saying I don't mind I love you I just want to be with you anyway we can? or is she saying I am a whore and don't you forget it, I am ok with being a whore, I want to remain in your service but you must keep me ( ie in a good standard of care) and keep me safe. Its his job if he wants her to keep her safe.

Soon after he wishes to tell her of the marriage plans to Sansa,but she knows already and is not bothered, he even thinks to himself that he had thought she would be more upset, well derr Tyrion why would a whore be remotely phased that her patron is getting wed, what is it to her.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I would take a middle road here, I understand why Tyrion killed her, and I understand why Shae did what she did. I do think that 1 poster hit the nail on the head saying that Shae played the game of thrones and lost. She tried to climb the latter and failed.

[Dany Girl]

Why do you guys feel with Shae? Why dont you care for the real victioms in aSoIaF likeTheon, all the innocent that get massacred, Elia, the child sandor and all the others?

Yes, why should we feel bad for a girl from a poor family who was treated as a sex slave by her own father, left home only to become a whore? Then ends up as a noble born man's concubine, but never receives payment (Tyrion revoked payment) is forced to do physical labor that will ruin her chances at being a successful whore in the future, gets physically abused (slapped) and mentally abused (talk of Tysha, "this could be you" undertones) by her benefactor?

Instead we should feel bad for the guy who murdered 2 children to cover up he lost 2 children while stealing their home, the home of the family who took him in and raised him, treated him well, like a brother.

Yes, lets feel worse for Theon who has actually done some horrendous stuff than Shea, who's only crime is lying.

[Leonardo]

Iirc that was tyrion's assumption whereas from

Cersei we learn shae "broke quickly".

In the very first Cersei chapter of AFFC it says she was offered the same things Tyrion was offering; quotes please saying she broke quickly?

[Lee-Sensei]

Yes, why should we feel bad for a girl from a poor family who was treated as a sex slave by her own father, left home only to become a whore? Then ends up as a noble born man's concubine, but never receives payment (Tyrion revoked payment) is forced to do physical labor that will ruin her chances at being a successful whore in the future, gets physically abused (slapped) and mentally abused (talk of Tysha, "this could be you" undertones) by her benefactor?

Instead we should feel bad for the guy who murdered 2 children to cover up he lost 2 children while stealing their home, the home of the family who took him in and raised him, treated him well, like a brother.

Yes, lets feel worse for Theon who has actually done some horrendous stuff than Shea, who's only crime is lying.

Ugh... I'm on your side about Shae, but no. Theon didn't "steal" their Home. He conquered their home. Like Robb and the Crag. The Starks didn't take him in out of the goodness of their hearts either. They took him hostage under threat of death to have leverage against his family. They certainly "treated him well", that is if you ignore the fact that they took him hostage under threat of death and only Robb was family to him.

Did Shae ever pretend to be in love with him? She was always a prostitute. He knew that. It's not fair, but it's his own fault for thinking that she would fall in love with him.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I mostly agree with this, except for the Tyrion holding her prisoner, by the end, where is she going to go, really? She probably is safer in KL than anywhere else in Westeros, though I agree his motives are as pure as he chooses to think they are.

But, it also isn't Tyrion's fault for raising her up from a camp follower to something more akin to a courtisan, so she certainly could have gone back to that life, but of course, she wouldn't want to...

She's become accustomed to all the wealth he has lavished on her, exemplified by how little gratitude she has and how upset she is when she doesn't get to wear the jewels, etc. Because she is a greedy, amoral POS.

Which doesn't excuse Tyrion from killing her.

No not his fault for taking her on as concubine, she said yes to that, and she'd have been mad not to. But he prevents her from going back to Camp Follower even if she did want to, if she walks out of the Red Keep she's got nothing but the clothes on her back. Also who knows what freedoms servants actually have can they even leave the castle? I don't imagine they actually get paid cash, but rather its a case of indenture.

Why on earth should she show him gratitude? she held up her part of the deal he got all the sex he could want, she did everything her asked her too, he is the one who failed to keep his side of the deal. Too right she is upset about those jewels they were the only solid payment her ever made her, and he took them away again.

Is she really Greedy, would you do a job and be totally OK with never getting paid? Is she amoral? why? because she makes her money on her back? Or because she has sex with Tywin? as I've said before does anyone really believe she had a choice? or for lying in court? again Cersei is not the type to politely ask if Shea wouldn't mind testifying? And she is of course completely above telling her to lie in court and to humiliate Tyrion as much as possible? POS really? why?

[Dany Girl]

Ugh... I'm on your side about Shae, but no. Theon didn't "steal" their Home. He conquered their home. Like Robb and the Crag. The Starks didn't take him in out of the goodness of their hearts either. They took him hostage under threat of death to have leverage against his family. They certainly "treated him well", that is if you ignore the fact that they took him hostage under threat of death and only Robb was family to him.

He was Robert's hostage, Ned's ward. Warding is very common in Westeros. And while yes, there was the threat of death, I highly doubt Ned walked around saying, "better hope your dad doesn't fuck up or your dead kid!"

Ned and the Stark children treated him very well, he was considered by Robb to be another brother, one with absolute trust. Trust he betrayed.

Ya, I know it was conquering, but to Bran and Rickon it was stealing. He did it in a very sneaky way too, which was smart, but not "honorable" as Bran thinks people should be.

I do have sympathy for Theon, what he's going through no one deserves. But to say he deserves sympathy but not Shea, who's life was undoubtedly worse, is ridiculous. Theon's "punishment" is overkill, but he did something to deserve punishment. Shea didn't IMO. She's a whore, she needs money, Tyrion never paid her, abused her, used her, so no, she didn't owe him shit. And she didn't deserve to die.

Did Shae ever pretend to be in love with him? She was always a prostitute. He knew that. It's not fair, but it's his own fault for thinking that she would fall in love with him.

No, she never claims to love him, it's his fault for thinking she would. I agree it's not fair, but it's also not fair to think Shea owed him her love or allegiance. He's just a client to her, sad for him, but oh well.

[Leonardo]

He was Robert's hostage, Ned's ward. Warding is very common in Westeros. And while yes, there was the threat of death, I highly doubt Ned walked around saying, "better hope your dad doesn't fuck up or your dead kid!"

Ned and the Stark children treated him very well, he was considered by Robb to be another brother, one with absolute trust. Trust he betrayed.

Ya, I know it was conquering, but to Bran and Rickon it was stealing. He did it in a very sneaky way too, which was smart, but not "honorable" as Bran thinks people should be.

I do have sympathy for Theon, what he's going through no one deserves. But to say he deserves sympathy but not Shea, who's life was undoubtedly worse, is ridiculous. Theon's "punishment" is overkill, but he did something to deserve punishment. Shea didn't IMO. She's a whore, she needs money, Tyrion never paid her, abused her, used her, so no, she didn't owe him shit. And she didn't deserve to die.

To add to this, IF Balon had risen up again, Theon would get to be Lord Paramount of the Iron Isles when they sat him on the seastone chair instead of his father. A Greyjoy still rules the Ironborn, pacifying them and installing one of Ned Stark's wards to the position. Yeah, he was totally going to get rooked Lee Sensei haha

So in fact it's the opposite, Ned was doing everything he could basically to make sure Theon was healthy and happy in case he needed Greyjoy's ships or needed a son of his to install in Balon's place since Balon was a known rebel.

[Cas Stark]

No not his fault for taking her on as concubine, she said yes to that, and she'd have been mad not to. But he prevents her from going back to Camp Follower even if she did want to, if she walks out of the Red Keep she's got nothing but the clothes on her back. Also who knows what freedoms servants actually have can they even leave the castle? I don't imagine they actually get paid cash, but rather its a case of indenture.

Why on earth should she show him gratitude? she held up her part of the deal he got all the sex he could want, she did everything her asked her too, he is the one who failed to keep his side of the deal. Too right she is upset about those jewels they were the only solid payment her ever made her, and he took them away again.

Is she really Greedy, would you do a job and be totally OK with never getting paid? Is she amoral? why? because she makes her money on her back? Or because she has sex with Tywin? as I've said before does anyone really believe she had a choice? or for lying in court? again Cersei is not the type to politely ask if Shea wouldn't mind testifying? And she is of course completely above telling her to lie in court and to humiliate Tyrion as much as possible? POS really? why?

Yeah, I think she is greedy and amoral. Her total lack of sympathy for Lollys says a lot of her character. She wants to go to the wedding because she's pushing the envelop, because, look how much she has gotten already, just by pretending to enjoy sex with Tyrion. She's living like a queen.

And the reason for the change is because of the kidnapping and beating of the 'wrong whore' it isn't as if Tyrion does this randomly for no reason. He is trying to protect her, but she's too greedy and selfish to see it that way. He has paid her MUCH MUCH more than she ever could or would have expected. Come on. Jewels and a house for being a whore? Who gets that? No one. She would have been happy with some gold dragons if Tyrion hadn't gone of the deep end and turned her into his 'girlfriend'.

But, again, Shae being a bad person is no excuse for Tyrion to kill her. Both things can be true. She is a bad person, but he should not have murdered her.

[Lee-Sensei]

He was Robert's hostage, Ned's ward. Warding is very common in Westeros. And while yes, there was the threat of death, I highly doubt Ned walked around saying, "better hope your dad doesn't fuck up or your dead kid!"

Ned and the Stark children treated him very well, he was considered by Robb to be another brother, one with absolute trust. Trust he betrayed.

Ya, I know it was conquering, but to Bran and Rickon it was stealing. He did it in a very sneaky way too, which was smart, but not "honorable" as Bran thinks people should be.

I do have sympathy for Theon, what he's going through no one deserves. But to say he deserves sympathy but not Shea, who's life was undoubtedly worse, is ridiculous. Theon's "punishment" is overkill, but he did something to deserve punishment. Shea didn't IMO. She's a whore, she needs money, Tyrion never paid her, abused her, used her, so no, she didn't owe him shit. And she didn't deserve to die.

Ugh. No. GRRM has said himself that he was Ned's hostage. Theon wasn't just a ward. GRRM said himself that Theon's situation is different from a fosterling (like Ned and Robert were for Jon Arryn), because he was a hostage too.

It doesn't matter if Ned went around saying that he'd kill Theon if Balon acted up, because Theon knew that was the deal.

Ned took Theon hostage. If someone took a Stark kid hostage under threat of death from Ned and Cat and said the weren't going to send them home until their parents were already dead, you'd say that was cruel right?

Robb's tactics weren't "honorable" either then as he attacked people while the were sleeping. It was war.

Shae's life being undoubtedly worse? I'm not sure about that. I agree with you on the rest. Shae didn't owe Tyrion anything, and he crossed a line when he murdered her.

To add to this, IF Balon had risen up again, Theon would get to be Lord Paramount of the Iron Isles when they sat him on the seastone chair instead of his father. A Greyjoy still rules the Ironborn, pacifying them and installing one of Ned Stark's wards to the position. Yeah, he was totally going to get rooked Lee Sensei haha

So in fact it's the opposite, Ned was doing everything he could basically to make sure Theon was healthy and happy in case he needed Greyjoy's ships or needed a son of his to install in Balon's place since Balon was a known rebel.

Yeah. No. He wouldn't get the Greyjoy ships, because the Iron Born don't care about the Starks and wouldn't side with them unless they're getting anything. The deal was that if Balon rebelled, Theon gets executed. GRRM said so himself. That's what's said in the books.

The funny thing is that before Ned took him hostage, Theon was a good kid and he came out of his time at Winterfell an asshole. I guess he screwed up.

[Cas Stark]

Ugh. No. GRRM has said himself that he was Ned's hostage. Theon wasn't just a ward. GRRM said himself that Theon's situation is different from a fosterling (like Ned and Robert were for Jon Arryn), because he was a hostage too.

It doesn't matter if Ned went around saying that he'd kill Theon if Balon acted up, because Theon knew that was the deal.

Ned took Theon hostage. If someone took a Stark kid hostage under threat of death from Ned and Cat and said the weren't going to send them home until their parents were already dead, you'd say that was cruel right?

Robb's tactics weren't "honorable" either then as he attacked people while the were sleeping. It was war.

Shae's life being undoubtedly worse? I'm not sure about that. I agree with you on the rest. Shae didn't owe Tyrion anything, and he crossed a line when he murdered her.

Do we have to do this again on a thread about Shae and Tyrion?

[Dany Girl]

To add to this, IF Balon had risen up again, Theon would get to be Lord Paramount of the Iron Isles when they sat him on the seastone chair instead of his father. A Greyjoy still rules the Ironborn, pacifying them and installing one of Ned Stark's wards to the position. Yeah, he was totally going to get rooked Lee Sensei haha

So in fact it's the opposite, Ned was doing everything he could basically to make sure Theon was healthy and happy in case he needed Greyjoy's ships or needed a son of his to install in Balon's place since Balon was a known rebel.

I agree. I doubt Theon was in any real danger. If it came down to it, they would kill Theon, but I think that's more a ladt resort. I think Ned especially would have pushed to kill Balon and install Theon under his guardianship.

I think it was more of a way to modernize the Iron Islands and incorporate them more into Westeros as a whole. Marrying Theon to a respectable mainland house would be important as well, create ties to the mainland and help insure Theon won't want to hurt her family by rising up.

[Leonardo]

Ugh. No. GRRM has said himself that he was Ned's hostage. Theon wasn't just a ward. GRRM said himself that Theon's situation is different from a fosterling (like Ned and Robert were for Jon Arryn), because he was a hostage too.

It doesn't matter if Ned went around saying that he'd kill Theon if Balon acted up, because Theon knew that was the deal.

Ned took Theon hostage. If someone took a Stark kid hostage under threat of death from Ned and Cat and said the weren't going to send them home until their parents were already dead, you'd say that was cruel right?

Robb's tactics weren't "honorable" either then as he attacked people while the were sleeping. It was war.

Shae's life being undoubtedly worse? I'm not sure about that. I agree with you on the rest. Shae didn't owe Tyrion anything, and he crossed a line when he murdered her.

Yeah. No. He wouldn't get the Greyjoy ships, because the Iron Born don't care about the Starks and wouldn't side with them unless they're getting anything. The deal was that if Balon rebelled, Theon gets executed. GRRM said so himself. That's what's said in the books.

The funny thing is that before Ned took him hostage, Theon was a good kid and he came out of his time at Winterfell an asshole. I guess he screwed up.

Ned wouldn't kill Theon, it's that simple. Balon probably wouldn't know that, but Ned would rather have gone to war and subdued the Iron Isles again and installed someone loyal to the crown/his crew who still fit the bill of someone the Iron born would accept than essentially commit something akin to kinslaying; Ned would never murder his own ward.

Ned banked on getting the Greyjoy ships, also. I'd trust Ned over your judgment sir ;D

And even if he didn't, scenario A still happens. Theon would get to be lord paramount.

Where the hell does it say Theon was a good kid lol?

[Jory Cassel]

Yeah. No. He wouldn't get the Greyjoy ships, because the Iron Born don't care about the Starks and wouldn't side with them unless they're getting anything. The deal was that if Balon rebelled, Theon gets executed. GRRM said so himself. That's what's said in the books.

Link? or quote from Ned's pov that he was planning on executing theon?

[Lee-Sensei]

Ned wouldn't kill Theon, it's that simple. Balon probably wouldn't know that, but Ned would rather have gone to war and subdued the Iron Isles again and installed someone loyal to the crown/his crew who still fit the bill of someone the Iron born would accept than essentially commit something akin to kinslaying; Ned would never murder his own ward.

Ned banked on getting the Greyjoy ships, also. I'd trust Ned over your judgment sir ;D

And even if he didn't, scenario A still happens. Theon would get to be lord paramount.

Where the hell does it say Theon was a good kid lol?

Ugh. This isn't the place for this discussion. I'll just say this.

1) Even if we assume that Ned wouldn't kill Theon, what Balon, the Greyjoys and Theon understood is that if Balon were to commit treason Theon would be killed. What matters isn't what Ned wold have done. What matters it was Theon thought he'd do. What he knew is that if the Greyjoys rebelled he'd be killed. That is very emotionally scarring.

2) Well, from what we hear about him as a child. Asha saying she liked him when he was 10. He was a shy boy. A frightened boy. He doesn't sound like the arrogant asshole from AGoT and ACoK at all.

Do we have to do this again on a thread about Shae and Tyrion?

I didn't bring it up.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

I mostly agree with this, except for the Tyrion holding her prisoner, by the end, where is she going to go, really? She probably is safer in KL than anywhere else in Westeros, though I agree his motives are as pure as he chooses to think they are.

But, it also isn't Tyrion's fault for raising her up from a camp follower to something more akin to a courtisan, so she certainly could have gone back to that life, but of course, she wouldn't want to...

She's become accustomed to all the wealth he has lavished on her, exemplified by how little gratitude she has and how upset she is when she doesn't get to wear the jewels, etc. Because she is a greedy, amoral POS.

Which doesn't excuse Tyrion from killing her.

Re: the bolded part. I think she was in the most danger while she was in Kings Landing. That was entirely due to her association with Tyrion, especially after Tywin returned. But she wasn't able to get away from KL because Tyrion had taken all of her belongings away. She was doing her job for him and he refused to pay her.

And of course she became accustomed to the wealth. Why wouldn't she? It was her salary for services rendered - until Tyrion took it all back and turned her into a scullery maid. Why should she feel "gratitude"? Why does she have to be considered "greedy, amoral" when she only wanted to be paid for doing her job?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yeah, I think she is greedy and amoral. Her total lack of sympathy for Lollys says a lot of her character. She wants to go to the wedding because she's pushing the envelop, because, look how much she has gotten already, just by pretending to enjoy sex with Tyrion. She's living like a queen.

And the reason for the change is because of the kidnapping and beating of the 'wrong whore' it isn't as if Tyrion does this randomly for no reason. He is trying to protect her, but she's too greedy and selfish to see it that way. He has paid her MUCH MUCH more than she ever could or would have expected. Come on. Jewels and a house for being a whore? Who gets that? No one. She would have been happy with some gold dragons if Tyrion hadn't gone of the deep end and turned her into his 'girlfriend'.

But, again, Shae being a bad person is no excuse for Tyrion to kill her. Both things can be true. She is a bad person, but he should not have murdered her.

Well The Neds Little girl has just Ninja'd me on exactly what I would have said here Thanks Dear :)

I'll add though that she is hardly living like a queen as she is a handmaid? she gets to empty Lolly's chamber pots and then Sansa & Tyrions. Lovely I bet she loved every minute.