Tyrion & Shae

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

If Tyrion wanted to protect her he could have given her back her jewels & silks, paid her for herservices and sent her a body guard to get her out of KL, & bid her farewell. But he didn't he threw a glass so close shards of it landed on her, he screamed and ranted, smacked her in the face, made reference to Tysha which can very easily be taken as a warning, and told her that against her will he was going to force her into the red keeps kitchen as a pot scrubber!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

People make it sound as though Shae could simply leave with her payment and then, walk around KL giving resumes of the career she learn in the Westeros U.

Shae was a whore, that's what she does for a living, she lives off patrons or man who occasional pay her. And while KL was dangerous, outside KL was even worse. As Jaime said of Riverrun, everything is destroyed, burnt and all women have been raped. And if people find out she was the Imp's whore, that could have been even much worse. Much.

So, Tyrion was her patron, he pays her for her company and he paid her well. She also found out the best way to keep her safe. His other option was to send her away. Where? To the streets? To Essos where she could have been made a slave? Is any other city that's actually safe in Westeros for her?

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Personally I pity Shae. To me she is just another victim destroyed by the House Lannister :(

[DrunkSister]

Why do you guys feel with Shae? Why dont you care for the real victioms in aSoIaF likeTheon, all the innocent that get massacred, Elia, the child sandor and all the others?

I have this bridge over Baraduin I would like to sell, would you like to make a deposit and go troll under it?!

[Woman of War]

Reposting my post from another thread:

No, Shae was not simply the poor downtrodden victim at the trial.

She accused both Tyrion and Sansa to have plotted together and to have planned Joffrey's murder while it is obvious that she can' t have heard anything like that. Actually she can't have heard anything, even a misunderstanding can be excluded since in the books Tyrion and Sansa barely ever spoke.

And that approach "what could she do, she was only a whore" is highly disriminatory against prostitutes , as if a sex worker were somehow a morally lesser being for whom the rules of decent behaviour do not count since she is a "whore" and has to lie. Lying is part of the job description of sex workers, but not only them. Doctors (oh it will get better, don't worry) hairdressers or saleswomen (you look great, dear) sometimes tell their clients what clients want to hear, just like sex workers. Does this make them entitled to lie in court? Certainly not! For sex workers, just like for hairdressers, count the same rules of lawful behaviour and basic human decency like for anyone else.

Shae may have been under pressure from Cersei but she seems to have lied far more creatively and convincing than what was expected, she swore a perjury. Need I mention that this is no reason for murder.....a disclaimer like that should really not be necessary in a quality debate. But Shae indeed owed Tyrion something: she owed him what a citizen owes any other citizen : not to lie under oath, especially if it may cost his life.

Don't get me wrong, I like the character of book Shae. The streetwise selfmadewoman who fights for a good life, actually the books are short of commoner female characters with at least some strength. No one may have shown any caring and empathy towards Shae, so she never has learned to feel empathy for others, neither for Lollys nor for Sansa. She got the promise of wealth form Tyrion, she got money even if he kept her fancy styling locked up because she was endangering herself. She may have been streetwise but she had dangerous illusions about the politics of KL and her possible future there. Shae had no idea about the danger she was in when she showed off her fancy stuff and Tyrion did not bother to explain his reasons. Assuming that he wanted to cheat her and keep her clothes for being a miser is nonsense since he probably could have afforded a hundred Shaes.

Basically Shae gambled for a good life and she lost, not being fully aware of the odds against her.

I do not blame Shae for making use of Tyrion's delusions since this is what every sex worker does: giving the client the illusion of power, of being desirable and sexy. Job description.There is no difference if the client is attractive or not. Every John is nothing but a john, those who believe themselves to be anyhow special to the sex worker are indeed delusional, there is no difference between ugly Tyrion, ugly Sandor or a good looking client.

But as soon as the job ends a prostitute is a citizen like anyone else who is subject to the same moral standards like everyone else and a perjury is a perjury.

[Jory Cassel]

(...)

And that approach "what could she do, she was only a whore" is highly disriminatory against prostitutes , as if a sex worker were somehow a morally lesser being for whom the rules of decent behaviour do not count since she is a "whore" and has to lie. Lying is part of the job description of sex workers, but not only them. Doctors (oh it will get better, don't worry) hairdressers or saleswomen (you look great, dear) sometimes tell their clients what clients want to hear, just like sex workers. Does this make them entitled to lie in court? Certainly not! For sex workers, just like for hairdressers, count the same rules of lawful behaviour and basic human decency like for anyone else.

Shae may have been under pressure from Cersei but she seems to have lied far more creatively and convincing than what was expected, she swore a perjury. Need I mention that this is no reason for murder.....a disclaimer like that should really not be necessary in a quality debate. But Shae indeed owed Tyrion something: she owed him what a citizen owes any other citizen : not to lie under oath, especially if it may cost his life.(...)

I've never interpreted any statement of the bolded as lowered expectations regarding truth for prostitutes, let alone discrimination, but moreover as pointing out that she, a commoner, was without resources and allies, had little chances to successfully go against the Queen Regent and to testify in contradiction to the vast majority of witnesses, and exactly the same would apply to to every commoner in her situation, regardless of which profession.

[Pod The Impaler]

I'm aware that Shae's interest in him was feigned, and he probably knew that too, but that in no way gives her the right to do or say what she did. She knew how much he liked it when she would call him "her giant of lannister", and she just throws that in his face.

Thoughts?

Varys was right when he tells Tyrion "you knew what she was". What did he expect - loyalty? Sympathy?

Still, that "giant of Lannister" bit was needlessly cruel, even if testifying against him so he'll be executed.

Was this her cruelty, and she thought humilating a condemned man was something she could get away with? Or did someone else put her up to it, just to totally destroy Tyrion in front of all those people? (My expectation leans towards the latter. I have a feeling one day Tyrion will come to regret what he did there.)

Alas, she said the very worst possible thing to Tyrion later on, by calling him that again... Failsafe: disabled; berserk button: pushed.

Poor Shae. Poor Tyrion too, but poor Shae.

Makes me wonder how the show will handle this, since the show Shae is a lot more sympathetic and seems to have actual feelings for Tyrion.

[DaeronDrumm]

So, Tyrion was her patron, he pays her for her company and he paid her well. She also found out the best way to keep her safe. His other option was to send her away. Where? To the streets? To Essos where she could have been made a slave? Is any other city that's actually safe in Westeros for her?

Gulltown, Sunspear and Oldtown weren't at war.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

And that approach "what could she do, she was only a whore" is highly disriminatory against prostitutes , as if a sex worker were somehow a morally lesser being for whom the rules of decent behaviour do not count since she is a "whore" and has to lie. Lying is part of the job description of sex workers, but not only them. Doctors (oh it will get better, don't worry) hairdressers or saleswomen (you look great, dear) sometimes tell their clients what clients want to hear, just like sex workers. Does this make them entitled to lie in court? Certainly not! For sex workers, just like for hairdressers, count the same rules of lawful behaviour and basic human decency like for anyone else.

Prostitutes in our time are seen as people (because they are, obviously) but in the asoiaf universe, not so much. Not even women, and specially lowborn women. The "she's a whore" it's not because she's less than a person. It's because in reality of her situation in the books, she has no more options in live. In fact, many girls actually have to turn to prostitution because they have no more options in life after they lose a father or a husband. Some might play their cards well and make a good living out of it, and even have their own daughters into the business, but that's a pretty low bunch. The rest is exposed to diseases, violence, raping and even not payment at all.

The fact that Shae has survived doesn't mean she's some kind of smart political player. Cersei might be an idiot but she's not completely stupid. As we don't know whatever happened after Tyrion was arrested, there is two options. Shae tried to get as much as she could and leave KL or stay until Tyrion returned, and either way, there is a chance that Cersei remembered her brother had a whore she could use against her if she promised her she would be left alone or find her another good patron. In her situation, she couldn't have done any better, specially knowing that there was no way Tyrion could escape alive.

[Jojen Dayne-Reed]

Personally I pity Shae. To me she is just another victim destroyed by the House Lannister :(

Word.

[Mad Monkey]

People make it sound as though Shae could simply leave with her payment and then, walk around KL giving resumes of the career she learn in the Westeros U.

Shae was a whore, that's what she does for a living, she lives off patrons or man who occasional pay her. And while KL was dangerous, outside KL was even worse. As Jaime said of Riverrun, everything is destroyed, burnt and all women have been raped. And if people find out she was the Imp's whore, that could have been even much worse. Much.

So, Tyrion was her patron, he pays her for her company and he paid her well. She also found out the best way to keep her safe. His other option was to send her away. Where? To the streets? To Essos where she could have been made a slave? Is any other city that's actually safe in Westeros for her?

Oldtown, maybe? White Harbor?

Tyrion stopped paying her back in ACOK, right? In fact, he made her get a second job to support herself as a maid while she was still working as a pro bono prostitute. Meanwhile her silks and jewels (her payment) was in the custody of a eunuch. That's probably the most brazen approach to consorting with a prostitute that I can imagine. Can you imagine hiring a prostitute in the modern world and then -- instead of payment -- helping her land a job at Burger King? That's basically what Tyrion did with Shae for basically a whole year. Now, there were good reasons why he couldn't pay her -- he wasn't withholding the money to be a jerk or an abuser, he genuinely did intend to make it up to her at some point, but it's still a bad situation for her. Hell, I'm not even sure if she counts as a prostitute any more since she was receiving no meaningful compensation for having sex with him.

[Mikkel]

The only reason why Tyrion didn't pay Shae, and docked her jewels and fancy clothes, is that because for all her supposed streetsmarts, Shae was enough of an idiot to want to wear clothes and jewels she had no business having in public, and would get herself thrown in jail or killed in short order without intervention.

There's LOTS of issues why the Tyrion/Shae "relationship" is a mess from beginning to end, but to attribute anything but good intentions regarding Tyrion taking away her jewels etc is not fair. Sure, he's protecting himself too, but he does it for her, first and foremost.

[Dany Girl]

Gulltown, Sunspear and Oldtown weren't at war.

And how do you suppose she gets there?

Ship? Oh, Tyrion took her money, can't afford a ship!

Walk? Through a war torn kingdom where outlaws, soldiers, and all sorts of men roam around raping women without (or with) protection.

Yes, leaving KL was her best option. Too bad she was a defacto hostage to Tyrion since he took her there and refused to pay her.

[Mad Monkey]

The only reason why Tyrion didn't pay Shae, and docked her jewels and fancy clothes, is that because for all her supposed streetsmarts, Shae was enough of an idiot to want to wear clothes and jewels she had no business having in public, and would get herself thrown in jail or killed in short order without intervention.

There's LOTS of issues why the Tyrion/Shae "relationship" is a mess from beginning to end, but to attribute anything but good intentions regarding Tyrion taking away her jewels etc is not fair. Sure, he's protecting himself too, but he does it for her, first and foremost.

Well, yeah obviously it was for good reasons but you can see why it must have driven her up the wall, right? I'm not saying that Tyrion could have made a better decision here (well, apart from sending her away, but for some reason he couldn't quite do that because of mmmphmmm mmmm) but Shae was basically holding down a working-class job and living like a peasant while also suffering the isolation and control of being a powerful man's prostitute mistress. That's like the worst of both worlds.

[DaeronDrumm]

And how do you suppose she gets there?

Ship? Oh, Tyrion took her money, can't afford a ship!

Walk? Through a war torn kingdom where outlaws, soldiers, and all sorts of men roam around raping women without (or with) protection.

Yes, leaving KL was her best option. Too bad she was a defacto hostage to Tyrion since he took her there and refused to pay her.

I was just saying Tyrion was perfectly able of sending her somewhere safe, and chose not to. :P

[Cas Stark]

Well, yeah obviously it was for good reasons but you can see why it must have driven her up the wall, right? I'm not saying that Tyrion could have made a better decision here (well, apart from sending her away, but for some reason he couldn't quite do that because of mmmphmmm mmmm) but Shae was basically holding down a working-class job and living like a peasant while also suffering the isolation and control of being a powerful man's prostitute mistress. That's like the worst of both worlds.

Is being Lolly's maid really a 'working class job' where she was living like a "peasant?? I would think that would be right at the top of the ladder, pretty easy work as well. Certainly a lot better job than a camp follower....where she started out....having sex with whatever soldiers came her way...not just the one guy who was in love with her, and protecting and supporting her and who HAD set her up like a noble woman until it became unsafe.

[Shah]

Some of these posts are kinda ridiculous. We have those, victimizing Shae and those making her out to be scum. I salute those who go off of what is known and fair deductions. :bowdown:

I think what Tyrion did was terrible (killing Shae) and treating her the way he did, but I'm happy it happened. The whole Shae situation added a new depth to his character and future growth. This could possibly be another one of those moments that I think "I'm sad it went down that way, but I'm so glad it happened!" Like Robb's death.

[Cas Stark]

I'm not glad it happened. Despite my thinking Shae was a terrible person, not a poor lil helpless girl who should be pitied because she was a prostitute....there is no excuse for Tyrion strangling her in a fit of rage than she punked him and was still trying to get away with it. I will never forgive him for that.

[Jojen Dayne-Reed]

Some of these posts are kinda ridiculous. We have those, victimizing Shae and those making her out to be scum. I salute those who go off of what is known and fair deductions.

I think you are running into three problems.

1) people get very emotional anytime there is a discussion about the sex trade and the actual culpability/agency of those in the sex trade.

2) Tyrion is a popular character. People also get emotional when talking about characters the love/hate.

3) (and most important) fair deductions is subjective. And people get REALY emotional when discussing whether or not their deduction is fair.

All of this leads to an exciting conversation but perhaps one that is more polarized then would be preferred.

[Mad Monkey]

Is being Lolly's maid really a 'working class job' where she was living like a "peasant?? I would think that would be right at the top of the ladder, pretty easy work as well. Certainly a lot better job than a camp follower....where she started out....having sex with whatever soldiers came her way...not just the one guy who was in love with her, and protecting and supporting her and who HAD set her up like a noble woman until it became unsafe.

Urban middle class then. It's still not the level of luxury that someone in her position would expect for being the Hand's mistress. My point isn't to compare her role to a camp follower, but to compare her role to the role that she expected when she took this job.

It's kind of like if Apple called me to work as a software developer, and I had to move across my country to their headquarters, hundreds of miles away. And when I got there, they let me work there for a month then all of a sudden said they were suspending my salary, taking my house, and sending me to work as a maid for one of the CEO's friends for minimum wage. They can have great reasons for doing this, but for me it would be jarring and frightening.

Again, I'm not trying to demonize Tyrion here, I'm just saying that from Shae's perspective suddenly having her pay cut off indefinitely while still being expected to perform must have been frustrating and annoying at best. Tyrion never asks this of anyone else. Can you imagine him telling Bronn, "Hey, I need you to return all the money I paid you, but I need you to go out and stab Stannis in the face while archers try their best to turn you into a pincushion. I swear I'll make it up to you!"