How far will the ironborn get?

[Dragon Seed]

Everyone keeps talking about this book being about Daeny marrying Victarian or Euron or becoming a hostage and a Greyjoy having control of the dragons or an invasion of KL. There will be "others to destroy in this next book and dragons will be needed to accomplish this. I don't see Daeny and or the dragons engaging in any actions in KL or the Reach for Victarian.

[Jojosh]

Victarion is an idiot but if he blindly followed Euron the Ironborn have a good chance at stealing Dany's dragons and doing some real damage. This won't happen though so just settle for them doing damage to the reach and sacking a few cities.

[Hippocras]

Victarion is an idiot but if he blindly followed Euron the Ironborn have a good chance at stealing Dany's dragons and doing some real damage. This won't happen though so just settle for them doing damage to the reach and sacking a few cities.

I personally think Moqorro might scupper the dragon horn plan. He was not part of Euron's plan and the mute woman knows it.

Either that or he will make the horn work. Hard to say, but the hints point at the Red Priests being on Dany's side mostly for now.

[Lord Damian]

I hope they kill the Tyrells sons and heirs and sack the whole reach including Highgarden. Take out Oleana as well. Leave Oldtown alone.

[Mithras]

I like the ironborn hence why i started this thread, however i see there flaws(which there is alot) i do not see them as the perfect society but i do like the many aspects of there culture(kingsmoots, the captains being kings aboard there ships etc). Lord Reaver is just blinded and will contridict himself to attempt to prove himself right.

If you ask me, kingsmoot is the most democratic ruling type in the entire ASOIAF.

[Lord Reaver]

see this is why you are clearly a troll.

You accuse others of doing what you yourself are doing.

I advise non-engagement with Lord Reaver folks. He is here to disrupt by making excuses for inexcusable cultural practices. The Ironborn were the imperialsts.

If I were a troll, I wouldn't bother trying to argue with you, despite getting nothing but name-calling in return, it seems.

On the contrary, I haven't once said that all the rest of Westeros should live the same way or have the exact same culture as the Iron Islands.

Your side of the argument is the one routinely calling for the total extermination of every Ironborn, remember ?

Whatever the Ironborn were is immaterial, the current imperialist power is the Iron Throne. Those are the facts we're dealing with here.

As for what is "inexusable", that is a matter of perception, and I fail to see how your definitions are somehow better or more relevant than anyone else's.

Lord Reaver is just blinded and will contridict himself to attempt to prove himself right.

Do feel free to back up your accusations and point out where I've somehow contradicted myself.

[The Knight of Greenfield]

The Shield Islands were puny, eh ? That must be why they'd deterred all raiders for the past 2000 years.

So the ironborn have being raiding the shield islands for the last 2000 years?? False. Also if im mistaken you have said reaving no longer really takes place in the island. The shield islands seem like along way to go for the small minority of people to go to. In the past yes they would of raided the islands but the wording "the last 2000" years suggests you believe thay there have being raiders there for the last 2 millenia. Which is not true

[Hippocras]

don't engage him. It is pointless. He is constantly trying to provoke fights by saying people said things they never said to force them onto the defensive. It is ridiculous, circular, and he is constantly contradicting himself.

[Lord Reaver]

So the ironborn have being raiding the shield islands for the last 2000 years?? False.

Also if im mistaken you have said reaving no longer really takes place in the island. The shield islands seem like along way to go for the small minority of people to go to. In the past yes they would of raided the islands but the wording "the last 2000" years suggests you believe thay there have being raiders there for the last 2 millenia. Which is not true

deter

dɪˈtəː/

verb

verb: deter; 3rd person present: deters; past tense: deterred; past participle: deterred; gerund or present participle: deterring

1.

discourage (someone) from doing something by instilling doubt or fear of the consequences.

Hope that helps you. When someone is deterred from doing something, they by definition aren't doing it. So no, I never said anyone had raided the Shield Islands in the last 2k years.

Try harder.

[Lord Reaver]

don't engage him. It is pointless. He is constantly trying to provoke fights by saying people said things they never said to force them onto the defensive. It is ridiculous, circular, and he is constantly contradicting himself.

Either provide evidence for your claims or admit you're simply slandering me because I happen to hold an opinion which differs from your own, and you apparently are incapable of dealing with it.

[Hippocras]

Either provide evidence for your claims or admit you're simply slandering me because I happen to hold an opinion which differs from your own, and you apparently are incapable of dealing with it.

Your side of the argument is the one routinely calling for the total extermination of every Ironborn, remember ?

This is not an argument I have ever made. Nor are any of your other statements regarding my supposed point of view correct. Everything you say about what I say is twisted to misrepresent and inflame. Conclusion: you are a troll.

[Lord Reaver]

This is not an argument I have ever made. Nor are any of your other statements regarding my supposed point of view correct. Everything you say about what I say is twisted to misrepresent and inflame. Conclusion: you are a troll.

It is a common enough thing to call for from the anti-ironborn side. That said, if you personally haven't said that, that's fair enough, and I apologize for insinuating it. What you do seem to envision is for the ironborn to become exactly like the "greenlanders" however, which is not desirable to me.

On the other hand I have never tried excusing anything. So if I am a troll by that definition so are you.

[Hippocras]

It is a common enough thing to call for from the anti-ironborn side. That said, if you personally haven't said that, that's fair enough, and I apologize for insinuating it. What you do seem to envision is for the ironborn to become exactly like the "greenlanders" however, which is not desirable to me.

On the other hand I have never tried excusing anything. So if I am a troll by that definition so are you.

No, if you actually read anything I said, rather than misrepresenting it to start stupid fights, you would realize I said MANY times that like a lot of things about Ironborn culture.

But, they are people who seem to admire only brutality, and will therefore not accept any kind of "gentle" defeat. And they have a fucked up value system that says reaving is an admirable way of life. That part of their culture has got to die. So does the thrall and salt wife thing. It is thoroughly unacceptable to anyone outside the Iron Islands, makes enemies of all of their neighbours, and ensures they will always be parasites unless they reform.

[Lord Reaver]

But, they are people who seem to admire only brutality, and will therefore not accept any kind of "gentle" defeat.

And they have a fucked up value system that says reaving is an admirable way of life.

That part of their culture has got to die. So does the thrall and salt wife thing.

It is thoroughly unacceptable to anyone outside the Iron Islands, makes enemies of all of their neighbours, and ensures they will always be parasites unless they reform.

Everyone in Westeros seem to admire brutality. I'll point you to Lords Tarly, Clegane, Lannister (late), heck even the late King Robert did.

Balon already showed he accepted defeat when he was utterly beaten. What he couldn't accept was the tyrannical punishments levied upon him after said defeat. Not to mention his cause for rebelling was utterly just, and since no concessions were made, the cause never went away.

See, calling a population parasites is the kind of talk that starts "stupid fights". The ironborn are no more or less parasitic than anyone else. There are reavers just like there are robber knights or pirates anywhere else, but you don't call the westerlanders parasites or maniacs because of the likes of Gregor Clegane and his men.

Reaving and the thrall system is part of the Old Way, and as Theon points out, was pretty much dead. Thing is, with nothing to replace it, and after 300 years of ruthless oppression, I'm not going to cry if the Ironborn bring it back for some vengeance. Is it terrible ? Yes. Is it somehow so much worse than the King in the North pillaging the westerlands ? I don't see it. If bringing the Old Way back is the only way to keep the greenlanders down so they can't extend their tyranny, so be it.

If it's thoroughly unacceptable and makes enemies of all their neighbours, it will stop on it's own. All the neighbouring kingdoms would have to do is stop trading with the Ironborn and defend their lands against raids. That's it. Hunger and misery will do the rest. No need to come to the Iron Islands with fire and destruction, kidnapping children and extorting oppressive taxes. Or worse, as many people seem to want in these sort of threads.

[The Knight of Greenfield]

I think like any culture in westeros the ironborn have both strengths and weakness. As i've said before i am supporter of the Greyjoys in most of there battles(apart from when the burned lannistport)! However i feel they lack the polictical savvyness to really conquor the seven kingdoms, they probably have the men to make and impact and they certainly have the navy but no matter what anyone says the other regions do look down on them(for this reason i would like to see them get to Highgarden)

[Winnief]

Victarion is an idiot but if he blindly followed Euron the Ironborn have a good chance at stealing Dany's dragons and doing some real damage. This won't happen though so just settle for them doing damage to the reach and sacking a few cities.

I personally think Moqorro might scupper the dragon horn plan. He was not part of Euron's plan and the mute woman knows it.

I think Moqorro is rigging the horn to let Dany use it to control the dragons-and to make sure everything blows up in Victarion's face. Remember Moqorro thinks Dany is AA...he's on her side.

Moreover, I just don't see an idiot like Victarion ever getting a dragon.

Now, I think Euron will indeed get pretty far, (we know he and Dany will do battle against one another,) but I'm not sure the rest of the IB will follow him all the way down that path.

[Hippocras]

Everyone in Westeros seem to admire brutality. I'll point you to Lords Tarly, Clegane, Lannister (late), heck even the late King Robert did.

Tarly admires strength. He does not admire theft pillage and rape. Cleganes are universally acknowledged as brutes and not admired at all, Robert did not particularly admire random brutality either, though he did enjoy wars, tournaments and hunting. He also believed in mercy. Everywhere else in Westeros except the iron islands there seems to be some value placed on nurture, wisdom and creativity (productive living) in some form. Note the mother, crone and smith.

Balon already showed he accepted defeat when he was utterly beaten. What he couldn't accept was the tyrannical punishments levied upon him after said defeat. Not to mention his cause for rebelling was utterly just, and since no concessions were made, the cause never went away.

No, he sat around brooding and dreaming of bringing back the Old Way at the first possible opportunity and naming himself King. What tyranical punishments? His sons were killed in a war he started and Theon was taken as hostage against his good behaviour, yes, but it is not like Theon was an abused prisoner, and of course some kind of assurance was needed. In what way was his rebellion just? That is idiocy. His rebellion was stupid opportunism aimed at restoring the Old Way - ie a lifestyle based entirely on rape and pillage which noone in Westeros could be expected to accept no matter who was on the Throne.

See, calling a population parasites is the kind of talk that starts "stupid fights". The ironborn are no more or less parasitic than anyone else. There are reavers just like there are robber knights or pirates anywhere else, but you don't call the westerlanders parasites or maniacs because of the likes of Gregor Clegane and his men.

Please explain how a culture that admires rape and pillage and raises it to a valued way of life above making or growing anything is NOT parasitic. They place a value on stealing rather than buying. That is the very definition of parasitic.

Reaving and the thrall system is part of the Old Way, and as Theon points out, was pretty much dead. Thing is, with nothing to replace it, and after 300 years of ruthless oppression, I'm not going to cry if the Ironborn bring it back for some vengeance. Is it terrible ? Yes. Is it somehow so much worse than the King in the North pillaging the westerlands ? I don't see it. If bringing the Old Way back is the only way to keep the greenlanders down so they can't extend their tyranny, so be it.

The Old Way is precisely what Balon was aiming to RESTORE in his rebellions. And you can't possibly be serious about the 300 years of ruthless oppression bit. Total BS. They have been left alone to do as they will except for when they started attacking, raping, pillaging and starting stupid opportunistic land-grab rebellions, when OF COURSE the mainland fought back. This is why I think you can't possibly be sincere. Your arguments are ridiculous.

If it's thoroughly unacceptable and makes enemies of all their neighbours, it will stop on it's own. All the neighbouring kingdoms would have to do is stop trading with the Ironborn and defend their lands against raids. That's it. Hunger and misery will do the rest. No need to come to the Iron Islands with fire and destruction, kidnapping children and extorting oppressive taxes. Or worse, as many people seem to want in these sort of threads.

You seem to be forgetting that Westeros is not the only place in the World. There would always be people trading with them. And if they were desperate it would only INCREASE their reaving activity, not diminish it.

They need a new value system. Without it, the cycle will go on and on forever.

[Dr. Qyburn]

They need a new value system. Without it, the cycle will go on and on forever.

You're right. "We do not sow" and "I would rather pay the Iron price than the gold price," are pretty ridiculous values IMO. So they would rather wear some stanking old clothes & worn out boots from some dead man just bcoz they won't be bothered to pay "the gold price"?

As to how far the Iron born will get, I have a little theory of mine. What if, Euron misinterpreted what the horn can do & instead of the horn binding the dragons to the horn's owner, maybe it binds the dragon to its rider. So when Victarion blows the horn in Meereen, Viserion and Rhaegor will actually fly away in search of their riders?

[GallowKnight]

You're right. "We do not sow" and "I would rather pay the Iron price than the gold price," are pretty ridiculous values IMO. So they would rather wear some stanking old clothes & worn out boots from some dead man just bcoz they won't be bothered to pay "the gold price"?

As to how far the Iron born will get, I have a little theory of mine. What if, Euron misinterpreted what the horn can do & instead of the horn binding the dragons to the horn's owner, maybe it binds the dragon to its rider. So when Victarion blows the horn in Meereen, Viserion and Rhaegor will actually fly away in search of their riders?

Doesn't the Iron Price just refer to jewellery and other extravagant accessories?

Is it ever mentioned as meaning: we steal everything?

[herr witz]

I think Moqorro is rigging the horn to let Dany use it to control the dragons-and to make sure everything blows up in Victarion's face. Remember Moqorro thinks Dany is AA...he's on her side.

Moreover, I just don't see an idiot like Victarion ever getting a dragon.

Now, I think Euron will indeed get pretty far, (we know he and Dany will do battle against one another,) but I'm not sure the rest of the IB will follow him all the way down that path.

I agree with this perspective.

The IB rebel, and always lose. They will wreak havoc (already have, really), change the game, move the pieces and remove some others, and lose.