Syrio Forel is not dead.

[FittleLinger]

If nothing else there's definitely a timeline problem with Syrio somehow getting away from Trant and ahead of Arya so he can lay down in a pile of dead bodies to....wait why would he do that again?

Because we need him to be alive so desperately for some reason, that we are ready to ignore everything and come up with the most unbelievable of scenarios for the sole purpose of this small character to not be dead.

[RumHam]

I think the argument would go that Syrio was 'shadowing' Arya and making sure she got safely out of the castle before he went off to assume his new identity. That doesn't seem very likely, but I think it's how the argument would go.

So why wouldn't he pretend to be a Lannister guard and help her escape? It what situation is his best move to lay down with some dead guys and wait for Arya to pass by so he can whisper something to her and not reveal himself.

[Kennedy the Keen]

The app gives no place of death for him. He has been mentioned in Cersei's POV and is never referred as such, his head was not mentioned as being on the spikes, where it certainly should have been.

So, what became of him?

Did he somehow escape? If so, why would he not go find Arrya?

My theory?

Petyr Motherfucking Baelish.

Maybe he's with his brother in Braavos from the Arya chapter

[SerFelixCulpa]

So why wouldn't he pretend to be a Lannister guard and help her escape? It what situation is his best move to lay down with some dead guys and wait for Arya to pass by so he can whisper something to her and not reveal himself.

The short answer is: I don't know. Maybe he was just trying not to be seen at all. As I said, the scenario appears unlikely.

[johndance]

This hurts my brain. How can you tell a book series has 6 year gaps between each new book coming out? You have 25 multiple page threads about whether or not a cool, but very minor character is still alive, even though if you use very basic common sense you know he is dead.

Hold on a second though guys, good change he actually is alive. Evidence to support this? Well it's pretty clear, Martin never actually CONFIRMS in text that he is dead, so that obviously means he is still alive of course. Oh yes, a 3rd party app forgets to put the year of death beside this same minor character as well. AND let's not forget, Martin again never mentions his head being on a spike. The Lannisters murdered how many Stark men that day? I have no idea but what would you guess? 40 total? I don't remember seeing all 40 of them each being mentioned by name as having there heads on spikes so actually there is a good chance some of them are alive still, too. On to the next thread which is consists of a pretty compelling argument about how Jory Cassel is actually still alive as well...

:bang:

[SerFelixCulpa]

This hurts my brain. How can you tell a book series has 6 year gaps between each new book coming out? You have 25 multiple page threads about whether or not a cool, but very minor character is still alive, even though if you use very basic common sense you know he is dead.

You left one out: you have people affirmatively and repeatedly choosing to come into these comment threads they insist are pointless/stupid/tiring (rather than going off and presumably joining conversations they actually find interesting) to tell everyone who cares (no one) how pointless/stupid/tiring the threads are.

[Kylotan]

Sorry to revive this thread, but there was one factor I thought was interesting.

In the show episode, the last thing we see is Arya fleeing, but then she stops and turns back to listen, and what you hear is a sword blow followed by the sound of a steel sword falling to the floor. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcjQ4rQQ8H8&feature=youtu.be&t=4m52s). Not a wooden sword. Is it Meryn's? Probably not, since the scream of pain that follows doesn't fit with him apparently being uninjured. Did Syrio jump aside, causing Meryn to accidentally kill one of the Lannister men? That seems a bit of a stretch, but who knows.

Normally I wouldn't refer to the show to support book canon but George R R Martin wrote the screenplay for that episode, so we'd assume that important details like these would not be left to chance. At the least, I think GRRM wanted us to be able to believe Syrio survived (even if he's sure he didn't).

[Shireen Shireen]

[snip}

Welcome!

Cool theory. I don't interpret it that way though, the noise sounds like quite a lot of people fighting, I think she's hearing other fights that are going on around her, wondering where she can safely run to.

[mormont]

I think it's important to understand what the role of a screenplay writer is, and what it is not.

If you write the screenplay for an episode, you do not have total control of what goes into it (and definitely not down to the level of what sound effects there are offscreen during a scene). You may be told what to include or leave out - and yes, the showrunners do have the right to tell even GRRM what to write. Your script may be rewritten or tinkered with: dialogue may be doctored even on the set by the actors and the director and yes, things may even be added in production, for example a sound effect. There may even be scenes in that episode you didn't write, because they were moved into that episode by the showrunners.

The point is, we can't say whether something in a GRRM-scripted episode is there because he wants it there, because he was told to put it there, because someone else put it there, or even if it's there by accident. The only way to know is to ask him. And he may not answer. Short of that, it doesn't matter if something from the show is from a GRRM-scripted episode or not. It's not book canon. It's not even indicative of book canon. It's not evidence.

[WhiteWalder]

I think it's important to understand what the role of a screenplay writer is, and what it is not.

If you write the screenplay for an episode, you do not have total control of what goes into it (and definitely not down to the level of what sound effects there are offscreen during a scene). You may be told what to include or leave out - and yes, the showrunners do have the right to tell even GRRM what to write. Your script may be rewritten or tinkered with: dialogue may be doctored even on the set by the actors and the director and yes, things may even be added in production, for example a sound effect. There may even be scenes in that episode you didn't write, because they were moved into that episode by the showrunners.

The point is, we can't say whether something in a GRRM-scripted episode is there because he wants it there, because he was told to put it there, because someone else put it there, or even if it's there by accident. The only way to know is to ask him. And he may not answer. Short of that, it doesn't matter if something from the show is from a GRRM-scripted episode or not. It's not book canon. It's not even indicative of book canon. It's not evidence.

This is a very good point. On Season 3 Episode 7 DVD commentary - GRRM explains some scenes that he did not write and others things that were moved. There were more than one scene where he said he cannot take credit for in the episode he wrote.

ETA spelling

[Lord Reaver]

The noise in the series is general "battle noise", indicating that the Stark guards are being hunted down and killed all over the place. Hence the metallic clangs and screams. Since arya is already well out of the room where Syrio and Trant faced each other, I see no reason to assume the noise has anything to do with that.

[Pib_Juju]

I don't get why some people want Syrio to be alive. He was a fun character, sure, but half of what made him interesting was his death scene.

And personally, I think making little side characters like Syrio Forel central to the plot ends up making the whole world seem infinitely smaller. Left as it is, the reader can infer that Syrio had led a full, adventurous life that nothing whatsoever to do with any of the books' main characters.

[SerFelixCulpa]

I don't get why some people want Syrio to be alive. He was a fun character, sure, but half of what made him interesting was his death scene.

I would assume they *want* Syrio to be alive for the same reason they want any character or person (real or imaginary) to be alive...because they liked and cared about him and would like to see more of him. I'm not sure how the math works on his death being 'half' of what makes him interesting, but I suppose it's sufficient for narrative purposes for him to serve the purpose GRRM had in mind for him. Such is the wages of being a fictional character. ;)

[Light a wight tonight]

I don't get why some people want Syrio to be alive. He was a fun character, sure, but half of what made him interesting was his death scene.

There was no death scene, which is why the controversy continues. When last seen he hadn't been scratched and wasn't breathing hard. I object to him dying on aesthetic grounds, that he deserves a better killer than Meryn Trant. I do find the borderline fanfic of him becoming some other character silly. I prefer to think that he delayed Trant long enough to let Arya get away and got away himself, never to be seen again. Maybe sipping Mai Tais on the beach in the Summer Isles.

You notice that when Trant reported back to Cersei he said that the dance instructor interfered, but omitted that said dance instructor disabled/killed 5 Lannister guardsmen and what happened to the dance instructor. To me this smells of coverup.

I can't understand some peoples' deep need for Syrio to be dead. They get all frothy at the mouth on the subject.

[kiasyd]

There was no death scene, which is why the controversy continues. When last seen he hadn't been scratched and wasn't breathing hard. I object to him dying on aesthetic grounds, that he deserves a better killer than Meryn Trant. I do find the borderline fanfic of him becoming some other character silly. I prefer to think that he delayed Trant long enough to let Arya get away and got away himself, never to be seen again. Maybe sipping Mai Tais on the beach in the Summer Isles.

You notice that when Trant reported back to Cersei he said that the dance instructor interfered, but omitted that said dance instructor disabled/killed 5 Lannister guardsmen and what happened to the dance instructor. To me this smells of coverup.

I can't understand some peoples' deep need for Syrio to be dead. They get all frothy at the mouth on the subject.

Agreed, I was always curious about this fight outcome, and just as curious about what exactly Trant reported back to Cersei - regardless of Forel being alive or dead, he succeeded and Trant failed, and Cersei isn't very tolerant about that.

Also, my mind always drift back to the Sealord's cat metaphor that Forel tells Arya moments before his demise. This parable is particularly meaningful in this chapter, but alas, it's meaning is as clear as GRRM's answer to Syrio's fate...

Take a look at the conclusion of the parable's lesson:

“Just so. Opening your eyes is all that is needing. The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true. Look with your eyes. Hear with your ears. Taste with your mouth. Smell with your nose. Feel with your skin. Then comes the thinking, afterward, and in that way knowing the truth.”

[Bulok]

If Barristan Selmy could take on the king's guard old as he is, isn't it plausible that Syrio Forel, in the prime of his life could take on a guard like Meryn Trant even with just a wooden sword?

It seemed The Hound found it ridiculous that Meryn can kill anyone, let alone the First Sword of Braavos.

Does armor really protect you from someone who is as skillful? Syrio did manage to knock out the other armored men with just his wooden sword.

[Hanzo Hasashi]

If Barristan Selmy could take on the king's guard old as he is, isn't it plausible that Syrio Forel, in the prime of his life could take on a guard like Meryn Trant even with just a wooden sword?

It seemed The Hound found it ridiculous that Meryn can kill anyone, let alone the First Sword of Braavos.

Does armor really protect you from someone who is as skillful? Syrio did manage to knock out the other armored men with just his wooden sword.

Yes, it definitely was plausible that he could take on Meryn.

......but then he doesn't make it out of that room, and Meryn Trant does. Syrio's a badass, I know, but now he's a dead badass.

[Mikkel]

Does armor really protect you from someone who is as skillful? Syrio did manage to knock out the other armored men with just his wooden sword.

Yes it does, wearing armor is a ridiculous advantage. There's a reason people wore it despite it being heavy, expensive and uncomfortable.

[Light a wight tonight]

I agree that Syrio is not going to kill armored Meryn Trant with half a lead-weighted stick in that siuation. That's beyond silly. I don't agree that Syrio will stand there with his thumb somewhere dark and let Trant carve him up. He's taught Arya how to run up trees; he has the agility to evade Trant's attacks (Trant is "slow for a knight" and has limited vision due to his visor) for a brief period. That's all that's needed.

[FittleLinger]

I agree that Syrio is not going to kill armored Meryn Trant with half a lead-weighted stick in that siuation. That's beyond silly. I don't agree that Syrio will stand there with his thumb somewhere dark and let Trant carve him up. He's taught Arya how to run up trees; he has the agility to evade Trant's attacks (Trant is "slow for a knight" and has limited vision due to his visor) for a brief period. That's all that's needed.

He said he wouldn't run. Did he lie?

Why didn't he contact Arya afterwards?

And most importantly - if both Arya and Syrio, who were together when they were last seen, survived, why did noone ever make the connection that he smuggled her out or that they are together?