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[TWOW SPOILERS] Theon I, part vi

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41 minutes ago, Nevets said:

To be honest, I'm a lot less certain about Theon's status than I am about Stannis's, so I wouldn't be too surprised if he hangs around for a while.  I do expect him to die before the end of  Winds, though.

I agree, I don't think he'll make it out of Winds alive. 

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On July 3, 2016 at 5:46 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I agree, I don't think he'll make it out of Winds alive. 

I also concur. I think Stanis will take his head off at the heart tree that's near by, or he just might burn him to work some lord of light magic! He is after all king of the Iron Islands by green land law. Stanis is an honorable man very dutifully, and he even mentions that he would lose all his Northmen if he were to release the turncloak for killing dead Ned's two sons. 

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13 hours ago, Lrd Commander Midnight said:

I also concur. I think Stanis will take his head off at the heart tree that's near by, or he just might burn him to work some lord of light magic! He is after all king of the Iron Islands by green land law. Stanis is an honorable man very dutifully, and he even mentions that he would lose all his Northmen if he were to release the turncloak for killing dead Ned's two sons. 

You think it will actually happen this why? I feel like Ramsay is poised to make a move. Something is going to disrupt Stannis and I feel like Theon is either going to get away or his execution will be delayed. Let's not forget that Theon has a lot of valuable information about the Bolton's and their plans. He could still be useful. I think there's a possibility Theon may die but it's not definite. If Stannis is killed and Theon doesn't fall into the hands of Ramsay, what then?

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7 hours ago, Ser Kinslayer said:

You think it will actually happen this why? I feel like Ramsay is poised to make a move. Something is going to disrupt Stannis and I feel like Theon is either going to get away or his execution will be delayed. Let's not forget that Theon has a lot of valuable information about the Bolton's and their plans. He could still be useful. I think there's a possibility Theon may die but it's not definite. If Stannis is killed and Theon doesn't fall into the hands of Ramsay, what then?

Good point. If Stanis were to die, and the Northmen don't get their hands on him and Ramsey, and Stanis dosent execute him before the battle he may have a chance of survival with Asha. And what a life he will live! Cracked teeth, so all his food has to be mushed up and sucked on, he can't have sex, he can bareley walk let alone run. All his joy in life has been taken away from him. Stanis knows from Theon that the Freys and Manderlys are on their way and he tells Stanis that Ramsey Bolton will be following behind them. Whatever Theon knows Stanis will get it out of him soon, and then really what use is he. Theon told Stanis he killed the stark boys. Flint, Norrey all the North wants him dead. Stanis tells Theon that they have a warmer(fire) end in mind for him. All of Stanis Knights want him to burn. Here is King Stanis's actual words to Asha:

"Wise. I am sorry for your mother, but I do not spare the lives of turncloaks. This one, especially. He slew two sons of Eddard Stark. Every northman in my service would abandon me if I showed him any clemency. Your brother must die."

King Stanis turns to Theon wen the Karstarks are taken out to die and says to him "that is how I deal with betrayal, turncloak." 

There are just to many hints in my opinion for Theon to die sooner rather than later in winds of winter. And no one is safe in ASOIAF.

 

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I think Theon's execution will be delayed because the Freys/Manderlys arrive and Stannis does battle with them. Circumstances keep Theon alive until Davos shows up with Rickon and the Northerners Lear he didn't murder the Stark boys

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On 8 July 2016 at 4:58 AM, Lrd Commander Midnight said:

I also concur. I think Stanis will take his head off at the heart tree that's near by, or he just might burn him to work some lord of light magic! He is after all king of the Iron Islands by green land law. Stanis is an honorable man very dutifully, and he even mentions that he would lose all his Northmen if he were to release the turncloak for killing dead Ned's two sons. 

I don't think so... I think Stannis will take Asha's advice and take Theon before the heart tree to behead him, but Bran will interfere.

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I see Bran doing something drastic or saying something that can be clearly heard which may stun Stannis before he swings the sword. Maybe he'll even provide tactical information as good measure who knows.

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Manderly & Glover have Wex.They know that the Stark boys are alive.Theon is needed alive for a while to reveal what happened in Winterfell.His execution will be delayed until one of the Boltons is arrested.

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On 10 July 2016 at 0:25 PM, Ruhail said:

I see Bran doing something drastic or saying something that can be clearly heard which may stun Stannis before he swings the sword. Maybe he'll even provide tactical information as good measure who knows.

Just so. It will be Bran speaking through Theon. ;)

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On 7/10/2016 at 3:24 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I don't think so... I think Stannis will take Asha's advice and take Theon before the heart tree to behead him, but Bran will interfere.

 

On 7/15/2016 at 7:29 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Just so. It will be Bran speaking through Theon. ;)

I absolutely agree.

On 7/7/2016 at 8:58 PM, Lrd Commander Midnight said:

Stanis is an honorable man very dutifully, and he even mentions that he would lose all his Northmen if he were to release the turncloak for killing dead Ned's two sons

Stannis believes he would lose his Northmen , but the clans all know the boys are alive... remember, they were watching Bran as he travelled north (he saw them through Summer's eyes) And when Bran met the Liddle in the cave, the Liddle seemed to think Rickon was alive too.He implied that the Boltons were still looking for both of them.

Also...

On 7/15/2016 at 7:24 AM, King Endymion Targaryen said:

Manderly & Glover have Wex.They know that the Stark boys are alive.Theon is needed alive for a while to reveal what happened in Winterfell.His execution will be delayed until one of the Boltons is arrested.

 Yes, they have Wex, at least .. and there's some reason to believe that they may have actually had a hand in getting Rickon to safety .. that sending Davos for him was in order to keep Davos from giving Stannis the information too soon. They don't really want Stannis to have Rickon, and they don't really want Stannis to have WF. They want Rickon and WF to be in Stark/Northern hands ... then they may ally with Stannis against KL.

I think they'd all be more likely to send Theon to the wall, rather than execute him.

Edited by bemused

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3 hours ago, bemused said:

 

I absolutely agree.

Stannis believes he would lose his Northmen , but the clans all know the boys are alive... remember, they were watching Bran as he travelled north (he saw them through Summer's eyes) And when Bran met the Liddle in the cave, the Liddle seemed to think Rickon was alive too.He implied that the Boltons were still looking for both of them.

Also...

 Yes, they have Wex, at least .. and there's some reason to believe that they may have actually had a hand in getting Rickon to safety .. that sending Davos for him was in order to keep Davos from giving Stannis the information too soon. They don't really want Stannis to have Rickon, and they don't really want Stannis to have WF. They want Rickon and WF to be in Stark/Northern hands ... then they may ally with Stannis against KL.

I think they'd all be more likely to send Theon to the wall, rather than execute him.

It is unlikely that Stannis will know that Bran and Rickon are still though, and he effectively controls what happens to Theon..  If he believes that it is necessary for Theon to die to hold his army together, it won't really matter that the boys are alive, as it seems unlikely that the Northerners are going to inform Stannis.  Plus, there is still a lot to hate Theon for.  Even without the deaths of Bran and Rickon, he took Winterfell, and destroyed any hope for victory for Robb.

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@Nevets.. It's quite possible that the survival of the Stark boys may be revealed at the tree. Bran is definitely (IMO) trying to communicate to and/or through Theon. Many of us feel he'll succeed

Stannis really only wants to execute him to please the northmen . I'm quite convinced that they will ask that Theon be taken to the tree ,as well. They (say, Alysanne or Middle Liddle) probably advised Asha to make the request. .. perhaps because they believe "no man can lie before a heart tree" Yes, they have more to hate Theon for, but are they executable offenses?.. and if so, would they be satisfied with offering Theon the chance to "take the black" (as Luwin once did)? He took WF, but Ramsay was the one who put it to the torch. .. And remember that even though he didn't stop it, and went so far as to dress their dead bodies, he didn't even kill the miller's boys. Ramsay did.

Before going to the tree, Stannis may think Theon killed the boys, but he also thinks Theon helped rescue Jon's little sister. We know how Stannis punished the wrong Davos did, while rewarding the good. For Theon, being sent to the wall would be the punishment and reward rolled into one.

Stannis particularly wouldn't care that Theon destroyed hope of victory for Robb, since Stannis never considered Robb a legitimate king, but a rebel trying to carve away a large chunk of what Stannis sees as his own kingdom.

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I'm relatively new to the forums, but I'd like to touch on the Bran interfering with Theon's execution scenario. What makes you think Bran will interfere with the intent to save Theon? Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Theon to be saved, but we haven't had Bran's perspective in quite a while. All we know is that he may or may not have used weirwood magic to say Theon's name. If it is Bran, saying Theon's name through a tree doesn't provide context. Is he sympathetic to Theon, having witnessed what he's gone through as Ramsay's pet, or is he seeing the young man who was basically a part of the family but later took Winterfell and killed a few Northmen and thinking, die motherfucker, die!?

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28 minutes ago, Ser Ronan Storm said:

I'm relatively new to the forums, but I'd like to touch on the Bran interfering with Theon's execution scenario. What makes you think Bran will interfere with the intent to save Theon? Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Theon to be saved, but we haven't had Bran's perspective in quite a while. All we know is that he may or may not have used weirwood magic to say Theon's name. If it is Bran, saying Theon's name through a tree doesn't provide context. Is he sympathetic to Theon, having witnessed what he's gone through as Ramsay's pet, or is he seeing the young man who was basically a part of the family but later took Winterfell and killed a few Northmen and thinking, die motherfucker, die!?

He hears Bran sobbing when he is front of the heart tree:

A thin film of ice covered the surface of the pool beneath the weirwood. Theon sank to his knees beside it. "Please," he murmured through his broken teeth, "I never meant …" The words caught in his throat. "Save me," he finally managed. "Give me …" What? Strength? Courage? Mercy? Snow fell around him, pale and silent, keeping its own counsel. The only sound was a faint soft sobbing. Jeyne, he thought. It is her, sobbing in her bridal bed. Who else could it be? Gods do not weep. Or do they?

The sound was too painful to endure. Theon grabbed hold of a branch and pulled himself back to his feet, knocked the snow off his legs, and limped back toward the lights. There are ghosts in Winterfell, he thought, and I am one of them.

 

And then:

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands."

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. "… Bran," the tree murmured.

They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran's face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran's ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon. They were only miller's sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water. "I had to have two heads, else they would have mocked me … laughed at me … they …"

 

Bran is unconsciously, the catalyst for Theon's redemption in ADWD. It's no mistake that right after this scene, the next chapter is titled "Theon 1".

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6 hours ago, Ser Ronan Storm said:

I'm relatively new to the forums, but I'd like to touch on the Bran interfering with Theon's execution scenario. What makes you think Bran will interfere with the intent to save Theon? Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Theon to be saved, but we haven't had Bran's perspective in quite a while. All we know is that he may or may not have used weirwood magic to say Theon's name. If it is Bran, saying Theon's name through a tree doesn't provide context. Is he sympathetic to Theon, having witnessed what he's gone through as Ramsay's pet, or is he seeing the young man who was basically a part of the family but later took Winterfell and killed a few Northmen and thinking, die motherfucker, die!?

There's loads of foreshadowing. I made a long post about it years ago elsewhere but I think I reposted it here, maybe page 1 or 2? 

ETA: nope, it's on page 6 or 7. 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/106038-twow-spoilers-theon-i-part-vi/&do=findComment&comment=7142979

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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Thanks for the refresher! I'm sold, there is a lot of foreshadowing here. Do you think Theon will really be warged? Not sure about Bran, but Bloodraven ought to be more than capable. I just read in The World of Ice and Fire that when Bloodraven was sent to join the Night's Watch, many of the men who made up his private guard, the Raven's Teeth, went with him. Was he just an inspiring leader or could he have been warging that many people into basically becoming his slaves?

Also, I wonder how independently Bran's actions have been from Bloodraven? I can understand Bran wanted to save Theon. I'm not sure Bloodraven would see much of a point in letting the North know Theon didn't murder Ned's sons. Theon's a bit lacking in the physicality department at this point, and Bloodraven seems to be more interested in Jon Snow than in Dany, so I doubt he's currently thinking of saving Theon and getting him back to the Iron Islands where he can try to turn the Ironborn against Euron, Euron being forewarned as the biggest threat to Dany.

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2 minutes ago, Ser Ronan Storm said:

Thanks for the refresher! I'm sold, there is a lot of foreshadowing here. Do you think Theon will really be warged? Not sure about Bran, but Bloodraven ought to be more than capable. I just read in The World of Ice and Fire that when Bloodraven was sent to join the Night's Watch, many of the men who made up his private guard, the Raven's Teeth, went with him. Was he just an inspiring leader or could he have been warging that many people into basically becoming his slaves?

Also, I wonder how independently Bran's actions have been from Bloodraven? I can understand Bran wanted to save Theon. I'm not sure Bloodraven would see much of a point in letting the North know Theon didn't murder Ned's sons. Theon's a bit lacking in the physicality department at this point, and Bloodraven seems to be more interested in Jon Snow than in Dany, so I doubt he's currently thinking of saving Theon and getting him back to the Iron Islands where he can try to turn the Ironborn against Euron, Euron being forewarned as the biggest threat to Dany.

Well, yes, I think he'll be skinchanged into, and I think definitely by Bran not BR. Maybe in TWoW Bran will have surpassed his teacher, or at least will be on the same level. We have BR telling Bran that there's no point in trying to communicate through the weirnet, that he's tried it and was never able to do it. Now, did he say that knowing it is possible and he just didn't want Bran to try it yet? Or does he actually believe it isn't possible? Because we know Theon and Eddard sort of "heard" Bran talking to them, calling their names. We'll only learn which in the next book. But regardless, Bran did "talk" through the heart tree, but I don't think he'd be able to carry a whole proper conversation this way, and that's why he needs to skinchange into Theon. The point, as I see it, is not necessarily, or primarily, to save Theon. But rather to pass on important info on to Stannis. About Winterfell and its secret passageways, about the fact that both Bran and Rickon are alive...

For instance, we know that the Boltons have sent the Freys and the Manderlys to battle Stannis, and each group has left Winterfell (or are about to leave) using a different gate. Let's say, for argument's sake, that Bran manages to pass all this info to Stannis before the Freys and Manderlys reach the crofters' village. Then we have the Freys getting there ahead of the Manderlys and maybe falling into the trap in the lake, with the Manderlys arriving closely behind. There's no way the Manderlys will actually fight with the Freys, they hate and despise each other. Maybe whoever is in command of the Manderly forces (is it Wyman's cousing? Can't remember now) knows about Davos' mission? If so, and they manage to talk to Stannis and tell him that, and given that in this hypothetical scenario, Stannis will have received info from Bran, he has no reason not to believe the Manderlys. 

I can't wait to read all about it. :)

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On 23/07/2016 at 5:17 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Well, yes, I think he'll be skinchanged into, and I think definitely by Bran not BR. Maybe in TWoW Bran will have surpassed his teacher, or at least will be on the same level. We have BR telling Bran that there's no point in trying to communicate through the weirnet, that he's tried it and was never able to do it. Now, did he say that knowing it is possible and he just didn't want Bran to try it yet? Or does he actually believe it isn't possible? Because we know Theon and Eddard sort of "heard" Bran talking to them, calling their names. We'll only learn which in the next book. But regardless, Bran did "talk" through the heart tree, but I don't think he'd be able to carry a whole proper conversation this way, and that's why he needs to skinchange into Theon. The point, as I see it, is not necessarily, or primarily, to save Theon. But rather to pass on important info on to Stannis. About Winterfell and its secret passageways, about the fact that both Bran and Rickon are alive...

For instance, we know that the Boltons have sent the Freys and the Manderlys to battle Stannis, and each group has left Winterfell (or are about to leave) using a different gate. Let's say, for argument's sake, that Bran manages to pass all this info to Stannis before the Freys and Manderlys reach the crofters' village. Then we have the Freys getting there ahead of the Manderlys and maybe falling into the trap in the lake, with the Manderlys arriving closely behind. There's no way the Manderlys will actually fight with the Freys, they hate and despise each other. Maybe whoever is in command of the Manderly forces (is it Wyman's cousing? Can't remember now) knows about Davos' mission? If so, and they manage to talk to Stannis and tell him that, and given that in this hypothetical scenario, Stannis will have received info from Bran, he has no reason not to believe the Manderlys. 

I can't wait to read all about it. :)

Honnestly, I can t imagine Bran using the weirwoods to send information to stannis... they never even met, there is no reason for them to talk. Besides it would be extremelly weird if it is stannis that defeats the boltons after everything... and wouldn t make sense for jon to quit the NW nor bring any peace to westeros. Don t forget that neither the vale (through eventually sansa) nor the riverlands have any reason to align with stannis... Basically I believe that stannis and the manderlys will kill the freys and then go to the wall because of some urgent letter.

On the other hand, if I am not mistaken in the second book Jon thinks he sees bran's face in a weirwood tree when he is alone in the land beyond the wall. I can t remember it they talk, but it is another example that bran can interact through the trees.

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13 minutes ago, divica said:

Honnestly, I can t imagine Bran using the weirwoods to send information to stannis... they never even met, there is no reason for them to talk. Besides it would be extremelly weird if it is stannis that defeats the boltons after everything... and wouldn t make sense for jon to quit the NW nor bring any peace to westeros. Don t forget that neither the vale (through eventually sansa) nor the riverlands have any reason to align with stannis... Basically I believe that stannis and the manderlys will kill the freys and then go to the wall because of some urgent letter.

On the other hand, if I am not mistaken in the second book Jon thinks he sees bran's face in a weirwood tree when he is alone in the land beyond the wall. I can t remember it they talk, but it is another example that bran can interact through the trees.

There's lots of foreshadowing for what I proposed n another post a few pages back. Bran has every reason to "speak up" if Theon is brought before the heart tree. We'll see, hopefully sooner rather than later. 

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

There's lots of foreshadowing for what I proposed n another post a few pages back. Bran has every reason to "speak up" if Theon is brought before the heart tree. We'll see, hopefully sooner rather than later. 

I agree he might influence theon's future in a discrete way although I have no idea if theon wouldn't prefer to just die an honorable death... 

What I disagree is that he will relay information to stannis about anything.

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