Jojosh Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Assuming Lyanna knew everything that happened as a result of her supposed kidnapping or willingly running off would anyone still have cause to mourn/love herI doubt itNed doesn't seem to pissed off at Lyanna when he thinks about her so I like to think that she was just a victim of kidnapping and stewed because Rhaegar was in the midst of a targ madness spell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 JQC: I just meat that Robert had this whole narrative in his head about how evil Rhaegar abducted his pure One True Love and he went on a Nobel Quest to save her only to have her snatched away after he's slain the Monster. The truth was probably that she just wasn't that into him. We don't have all the facts so feel free to disagree. Hmm.. so Lyanna abduction was like the shooting of Franz Ferdinand? More or less on Franz Ferdinand thing... As for Robert, let we be very clear about this. Robert did not start a war because of Lyanna. Jon Arryn did and Ned and Robert joined him because their heads were on the line. Robert may have been delusional as much as he wanted, but the truth is that he never fought for Lyanna, but for his own life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I am sorry, but you are exaggerating the role Lyanna and Rhaegar had. No one went into the war because Lyanna was abducted. I repeat, no one. Not single person for a split of second (As far as we know) considered war just because Lyanna was "abducted". The war started when Aerys wanted Ned and Robert dead. Aerys' craziness drove lords into Harrenhal, Aerys' madness started the RR. It is that simple. That was why I said a chain of reaction. If Lyanna wasn't *abducted* then Brandon had no reason to go to KL. Someone may say that Brandon was to blame but they forget the reason he was there. Lyanna was like Lysa, they both cared for who they would *love* and they knowingly created chaos and didn't cared about it. Jamie is undoubtedly worse as he knowingly risked war by having an affair with the queen and producing illegitimate children repeatedly over a period of fifteen years and was perfectly willing to go to war for it, he is much closer to causing war regarding causality and actually supplied a direct reason for it. Opposed to that, the abduction itself was not even the reason for war, neither was Brandon's imprisonment following the abduction. Lyanna knew that she was risking to start a war when she left with a married man father of two who happens to be the crown prince. She is worse than Jaime with less common sense. impeccable reasoning, how to argue with this :rolleyes: I cannot respond seriously to something so trollish. Hmm.. so Lyanna abduction was like the shooting of Franz Ferdinand? Exactly. JQC: I just meat that Robert had this whole narrative in his head about how evil Rhaegar abducted his pure One True Love and he went on a Nobel Quest to save her only to have her snatched away after he's slain the Monster. The truth was probably that she just wasn't that into him. We don't have all the facts so feel free to disagree. Whatever Robert thinking has nothing to do whith what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 That was why I said a chain of reaction. If Lyanna wasn't *abducted* then Brandon had no reason to go to KL. Someone may say that Brandon was to blame but they forget the reason he was there. And apparently you forget what was the real cause of the war and who actually killed Brandon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Whatever Robert thinking has nothing to do whith what happened. Yes, that's why I withdrew the point. So you would consider Princip "responsible" for World War I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 And apparently you forget what was the real cause of the war and who actually killed Brandon. I don't, but that doesn't mean that Brandon was there because of what Lyanna did. So you would consider Princip "responsible" for World War I? Rensponsible for the War itself? No. Responsible for the creation of a chain of reaction which lead to War? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Yes, that's why I withdrew the point. So you would consider Princip "responsible" for World War I? He was the match that lit the fuse. Europe was on teetering on the brink of war. WWI probably would have happened eventually but yes Princip started it. If Lyanna doesn't run off with Rhaegar, Aerys probably gets deposed. There would likely be some bloodshed, but it would not have matched RR. I'm guessing Tywin and Rhaegar would have teamed up the lords who wanted Aerys gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Rensponsible for the War itself? No. Responsible for the creation of a chain of reaction which lead to War? Yes. Fine, I can accept that. (Although I still think you're being too hard on her :leaving: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I don't, but that doesn't mean that Brandon was there because of what Lyanna did. Rensponsible for the War itself? No. Responsible for the creation of a chain of reaction which lead to War? Yes. And answer me if Aerys didn't kill Brandon and Rickard and asked for the heads of Ned and Robert, would we have RR? As for WWI analogy, you got even that wrong. The situation was already boiling and it was matter of time and it would start even without Princip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0bR Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 What Lyanna might felt for Rhaegar is in the same league with what Sansa felt for Joffrey. Plain and simple. this from Rhaegar's side it was a pure calcul in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Lyanna knew that she was risking to start a war when she left with a married man father of two who happens to be the crown prince. Did I miss the Lyanna POV where she thinks 'oh, gee, this might start a war'? Which page in which book? Unsurprisingly, you don't adress my point at all: Lyanna's abduction was not an immediate cause for war, seeing how..well.. no one declared war over it. Jaime producing bastard-children with the queen, on the other hand, is. Brandon's and Aerys' extreme(ly unreasonable) reactions were not to be anticipated. She is worse than Jaime with less common sense. Again, how is she worse than Jaime, who knowingly commited a crime over and over again during a period of fifteen years while perfectly aware that it could cause war and willing to go to war over it, who attempted to kill a child to hide his affair, who actually did make the first move in a war by invading the Riverlands whereas the abduction alone did not inevitably set up a war and we don't know whether Lyanna did expect war? Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but you'll hardly claim that she sat down kellhus-like and thougth through every single scenario that could ensue. I cannot respond seriously to something so trollish. Says the one putting her among the top ten worst persons in the series, throwing rocks while sitting in the glasshouse. There was nothing remotely trollish about my point. The abduction was not the immediate cause for war, simply one condition causal in the sense of the conditio-sine-qua-non formula, as were his and her parents, their parents etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 from Rhaegar's side it was a pure calcul in my opinion Yeah, I'm starting to accept that possibility. There go all my girlish dreams. Now I know how Sansa felt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lissa Nymeros Martell Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Considering the only information we have about either of them is 3rd hand hearsay there's not enough information to form an opinion one way or another. The information we do have supports either theory. Either he abducted her against her will or she went willingly. Why not put a pin in this topic and save it until TWoW is released? Or just reread the 10000s threads on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 And answer me if Aerys didn't kill Brandon and Rickard and asked for the heads of Ned and Robert, would we have RR? As for WWI analogy, you got even that wrong. The situation was already boiling and it was matter of time and it would start even without Princip But in order to Brandon not to be killed Aerys should have been sane, so there would be no need of overthrowing him, and Brandon wouldn't had to go to KL,which would happened if Lyanna and Rhaegar hadn't dissapared. I think that it's almost the same. In both cases there were plans of war which were there but it took a single actions to make them moving. In WWI was Franz Ferdinand's assassination in RR Lyanna's abduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Well, I was being mostly sarcastic with the Love and First Sight thing. ASMOF I don't believe in it myself. But yeah, I don't think running off with a boy even makes in into the top 100 of the "List of Horrible Things People Have Done" in this series. Eloping isn't bad by itself. Eloping while knowing the consequence is retarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 I believe that Rhaegar hed his own special kind of the infamous Targ madness and he was obssessed with the 3headed dragon prophecy so she was a tool to help him. On the other hand I believe that Lyanna was infatuated with him. My problem with Lyanna is that if she went willingly or not because if she did she is single handingly one of the Top10 worst persons in the series. Don't you think top 10 is a little much? That's not even putting all the rapists in front of Lyanna. Also, we can't blame Lyanna on hindsight. She couldn't possibly know everything that would happen from her action to run off with Rhaegar. Though I agree that It was stupid and juvenile, I'd put her in a lesser evil than, say, Gregor, Ramsay, Roose, Cersei, Randyl, Tickler, Vargo Hoat, Janos Slynt, Aerys, Khal Johqo, Slavers in General, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 And answer me if Aerys didn't kill Brandon and Rickard and asked for the heads of Ned and Robert, would we have RR? As for WWI analogy, you got even that wrong. The situation was already boiling and it was matter of time and it would start even without Princip This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0bR Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 As for RR happening without Brandon going to KL - I think there's a possibility so I am not going to say it is impossible, especially if Rickard and his allies were really forming their pact with the purpose of overthrowing the Targs. The kidnapping might have been enough of an impuls for them to finish their alliances and act. Any military action they may have been considering (if they even got info about Lyanna before Aerys' summon) went out of the window with Brandon going to KL, which is also the one and only reaction to Lyanna's kidnapping we have got from GRRM. Rickard may have been about to raise his banners when he was summoned by Aerys for all I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 Considering the only information we have about either of them is 3rd hand hearsay there's not enough information to form an opinion one way or another. The information we do have supports either theory. Either he abducted her against her will or she went willingly. Why not put a pin in this topic and save it until TWoW is released? Or just reread the 10000s threads on the subject. No! It's seventeen angels that can dance on the head of a pin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 24, 2014 Share Posted March 24, 2014 But in order to Brandon not to be killed Aerys should have been sane, so there would be no need of overthrowing him, and Brandon wouldn't had to go to KL,which would happened if Lyanna and Rhaegar hadn't dissapared. I think that it's almost the same. In both cases there were plans of war which were there but it took a single actions to make them moving. In WWI was Franz Ferdinand's assassination in RR Lyanna's abduction. But again you go back to Aerys. Exclude Aerys from equation and you don't have war. Exclude Lyanna and you still have dissatisfaction and probable coup. It has always been about Aerys... Only him... Perhaps the better analogy with Ferdinand is actually Aerys killing Brandon, not Lyanna eloping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.