Did Rhaegar and Lyanna truly love each other?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Did I miss the Lyanna POV where she thinks 'oh, gee, this might start a war'? Which page in which book?

Unsurprisingly, you don't adress my point at all: Lyanna's abduction was not an immediate cause for war, seeing how..well.. no one declared war over it.

Jaime producing bastard-children with the queen, on the other hand, is. Brandon's and Aerys' extreme(ly unreasonable) reactions were not to be anticipated.

I said that created a chain of reactions not started the war itself. If she couldn't understand that what she did was dangerous and could cause chaos then she was more dump than Vic.

Of course it's Brandon't fault Lyanna was an angel along with Rhaegar the immaculate silver prince. Victim blaming.

Again, how is she worse than Jaime, who knowingly commited a crime over and over again during a period of fifteen years while perfectly aware that it could cause war and willing to go to war over it, who attempted to kill a child to hide his affair, who actually did make the first move in a war by invading the Riverlands whereas the abduction alone did not inevitably set up a war and we don't know whether Lyanna did expect war?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but you'll hardly claim that she sat down kellhus-like and thougth through every single scenario that could ensue.

She did commited *crime* against her family.

The fact that she was dump and that she didn't saw what she did doesn't make her innocent it makes her stupid.

Says the one putting her among the top ten worst persons in the series, throwing rocks while sitting in the glasshouse.

There was nothing remotely trollish about my point. The abduction was not the immediate cause for war, simply one condition causal in the sense of the conditio-sine-qua-non formula, as were his and her parents, their parents etc.

For me she is just like Jaime but she takes Jaime's place to TOP10 because at least he has tried to save people she only cared about herself.

It was trollish.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

And answer me if Aerys didn't kill Brandon and Rickard and asked for the heads of Ned and Robert, would we have RR?

I agree with you. Whatsoever, I have a few things to consider.

When Robert was summoned (along with Ned) to KL, there is something that caused that, which is Brandon being there to "challenge" Rhaegar and consequently, the crown. We know Aerys was already paranoid so, instead of thinking logically that he was mad because his sister was missing, it was simply an intend of take over the crown. To make it short, Aerys saw a man asking for his sister, but he actually saw a man wanting to kill his son and him, and decided to punish his house and anyone related. Whether there was a real conspiracy or not, we have no real data yet, except few theories and Rhaegar's promise of change. We know Aerys didn't know anything about that otherwise, Rhaegar would have been fried by them.

Putting aside the fact that Lyanna might have gone willingly with Rhaegar or not, Rhaegar was doing what it was logical for him: defend his own dynasty and name, even if that mean fight on his father's side. He told Jaime about changes but he never explicated said "I will kill my father to be King instead". Whatever his reasons were, he was witness of his father's mental state and yet, he did nothing. Maybe he loved him after all, or maybe he didn't want to be a kinslayer. Or maybe he had a plan to replace him without any war involved. We know that didn't happened because Lyanna's absence enraged at least two houses. So, any peaceful plan he might have had, it was already doomed as soon as he and Lyanna were together.

Now, many people like to think that Robert and his rebellion happened because "they wanted to free Westeros from a mad man!!!". We don't know if Robert had ever thought about that before the abduction of Lyanna and if he did, Robert didn't know there was a small chance of Rhaegar wanting the same. Yes, I know Aerys wanted Robert and Ned both dead but besides that, Robert was hurt on his own pride of seeing "his woman" running away with another man and probably didn't even listened not considered other options. I doubt Rhaegar first tried to speak to him and say "look, I also want the crazy old fuck gone, listen to me first" and simply tried to kill the guy who was "leading" the rebellion against his family (which, even though he couldn't have known then, indeed ended up with his wife and kids butchered). Also, Robert did not even considered for a moment that with Rhaegar dead, Lyanna could die too (after all, Aerys was still alive and he could have wanted her dead in retaliation).

So, while I do agree that it was Aerys who caused the Rebellion, R+L was the sparkle that started the fire (npi).

[StarkNaked]

I have no idea about what Lyanna felt about Rhaegar or anything that happened. She may have been strong and independent and she may have had reservations about marrying Robert but that doesn't mean she wasn't kidnapped. Simply, there's not enough information about what did or didn't happen.

As for Rhaegar, I'm inclined to think that he never loved her and even if he was romantically inclined towards her then these feelings were never his primary motivation. He'd worked since childhood for the prophecy and I think that's all that he had in his mind.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Don't you think top 10 is a little much? That's not even putting all the rapists in front of Lyanna. Also, we can't blame Lyanna on hindsight. She couldn't possibly know everything that would happen from her action to run off with Rhaegar. Though I agree that It was stupid and juvenile, I'd put her in a lesser evil than, say, Gregor, Ramsay, Roose, Cersei, Randyl, Tickler, Vargo Hoat, Janos Slynt, Aerys, Khal Johqo, Slavers in General, etc.

And the most of them are villains, so for me they don't count. That is why I am mostly discusted about *good* people's crimes than villains' crimes. What Lyanna did was unforgivable.

But again you go back to Aerys. Exclude Aerys from equation and you don't have war. Exclude Lyanna and you still have dissatisfaction and probable coup. It has always been about Aerys... Only him...

Perhaps the better analogy with Ferdinand is actually Aerys killing Brandon, not Lyanna eloping.

We don't know that. If Aerys wasn't there then Rhaegar was the King and we don't know what kind of kind he would have been to be sure about what would happen.

[Wmarshal]

And answer me if Aerys didn't kill Brandon and Rickard and asked for the heads of Ned and Robert, would we have RR?

As for WWI analogy, you got even that wrong. The situation was already boiling and it was matter of time and it would start even without Princip

Yeah, save far more destructive and headed by Brandon. The STAB alliance was forged to stop Targs from doing this, and with his heir not arrested, Rickard has free range to mass a mighty host with allies to attack Aerys. Kidnapping a lords child is grounds to wage war.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I agree with you. Whatsoever, I have a few things to consider.

When Robert was summoned (along with Ned) to KL, there is something that caused that, which is Brandon being there to "challenge" Rhaegar and consequently, the crown. We know Aerys was already paranoid so, instead of thinking logically that he was mad because his sister was missing, it was simply an intend of take over the crown. To make it short, Aerys saw a man asking for his sister, but he actually saw a man wanting to kill his son and him, and decided to punish his house and anyone related. Whether there was a real conspiracy or not, we have no real data yet, except few theories and Rhaegar's promise of change. We know Aerys didn't know anything about that otherwise, Rhaegar would have been fried by them.

Putting aside the fact that Lyanna might have gone willingly with Rhaegar or not, Rhaegar was doing what it was logical for him: defend his own dynasty and name, even if that mean fight on his father's side. He told Jaime about changes but he never explicated said "I will kill my father to be King instead". Whatever his reasons were, he was witness of his father's mental state and yet, he did nothing. Maybe he loved him after all, or maybe he didn't want to be a kinslayer. Or maybe he had a plan to replace him without any war involved. We know that didn't happened because Lyanna's absence enraged at least two houses. So, any peaceful plan he might have had, it was already doomed as soon as he and Lyanna were together.

Now, many people like to think that Robert and his rebellion happened because "they wanted to free Westeros from a mad man!!!". We don't know if Robert had ever thought about that before the abduction of Lyanna and if he did, Robert didn't know there was a small chance of Rhaegar wanting the same. Yes, I know Aerys wanted Robert and Ned both dead but besides that, Robert was hurt on his own pride of seeing "his woman" running away with another man and probably didn't even listened not considered other options. I doubt Rhaegar first tried to speak to him and say "look, I also want the crazy old fuck gone, listen to me first" and simply tried to kill the guy who was "leading" the rebellion against his family (which, even though he couldn't have known then, indeed ended up with his wife and kids butchered). Also, Robert did not even considered for a moment that with Rhaegar dead, Lyanna could die too (after all, Aerys was still alive and he could have wanted her dead in retaliation).

So, while I do agree that it was Aerys who caused the Rebellion, R+L was the sparkle that started the fire (npi).

Rhaegar might have been willing to parlay with Robert and dismiss their differences had Aerys not been keeping his children and Elia as hostages. Had Rhaegar actually been thinking, he could have sent his family to Dorne, stripped Aerys of his leverage (and Dornish reinforcements) and merely forced the change.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Rhaegar might have been willing to parlay with Robert and dismiss their differences had Aerys not been keeping his children and Elia as hostages. Had Rhaegar actually been thinking, he could have sent his family to Dorne, stripped Aerys of his leverage (and Dornish reinforcements) and merely forced the change.

It's true. Rhaegar was pretty much tied up to do anything but in a way, he caused that himself.

OTOH, I doubt Robert would have agreed to parlay. He was a proud man.

[Mladen]

So, while I do agree that it was Aerys who caused the Rebellion, R+L was the sparkle that started the fire (npi).

R+L created only a spark, but Aerys actually blew into it until it became proper fire... (if we are going to use this metaphor)

The chain of events is rather complicated because this one goes into circles where Aerys madness plays a key role. Simply, no madness, no need for Harrenhal (if it indeed was some sort of secretive Great Council), no R+L, thus no eloping and no Brandon's fury. Simply, when you see it, it always came down to Aerys. He had power to avert the chain and he simply didn't. He is the key link...

Yeah, save far more destructive and headed by Brandon. The STAB alliance was forged to stop Targs from doing this, and with his heir not arrested, Rickard has free range to mass a mighty host with allies to attack Aerys. Kidnapping a lords child is grounds to wage war.

Yes, except no one waged a war over Lyanna's supposed abduction.

We don't know that. If Aerys wasn't there then Rhaegar was the King and we don't know what kind of kind he would have been to be sure about what would happen.

We do know one thing. If Aerys didn't kill Brandon and Rickard, we would never have RR. And that, my dear, has nothing to do with Lyanna.

[Jory Cassel]

I said that created a chain of reactions not started the war itself. If she couldn't understand that what she did was dangerous and could cause chaos then she was more dump than Vic.

Yes, and opposed to that, Jaime supplied a direct cause for war and was perfectly willing to go to war over it (again, neglecting all his other misdeeds for a second). How is an abduction/elopement that is not the direct cause for war worse than that?

Of course it's Brandon't fault Lyanna was an angel along with Rhaegar the immaculate silver prince. Victim blaming.

It is no surprise that you have to resort to strawmen as your stance holds no water, I never claimed that eloping was not unreasonable and no repercussions whatsoever were to be expected, only that it did not set up war as an inevitable consequence.

The fact that she was dump and that she didn't saw what she did doesn't make her innocent it makes her stupid.

For me she is just like Jaime but she takes Jaime's place to TOP10 because at least he has tried to save people she only cared about herself.

Pray tell, if war was obviously a foreseeable consequence, why did Rickard not take any military action, at least raise his banners, collect a host in order to exert pressure to bargain with?

It was trollish.

Because why bother bringing a factual argument and actually adress the point when this is an option?

[Universal Sword Donor]

It's true. Rhaegar was pretty much tied up to do anything but in a way, he caused that himself.

OTOH, I doubt Robert would have agreed to parlay. He was a proud man.

Maybe, but I think Robert's beef was with how Aerys wanted him dead for no reason. Rhaegar could have sweetened the pot (dragonstone or some crownlands) for him to ignore the whole Lyanna thing.

[Wmarshal]

Yes, except no one waged a war over Lyanna's supposed abduction.

Because Brandon got himself captured.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

We do know one thing. If Aerys didn't kill Brandon and Rickard, we would never have RR. And that, my dear, has nothing to do with Lyanna.

If Aerys was out of the picture Rhaegar, who had done something that not even Aerys had dared to, was the King. Is there anyway for us to know that Rhaegar wouldn't be worse than Aerys?

Yes, and opposed to that, Jaime supplied a direct cause for war and was perfectly willing to go to war over it (again, neglecting all his other misdeeds for a second). How is an abduction/elopement that is not the direct cause for war worse than that?

Jaime at least tried to help people in KL. All Lyanna and Rhaegar did was copulate. So imnsho it’s worse.

It is no surprise that you have to resort to strawmen as your stance holds no water, I never claimed that eloping was not unreasonable and no repercussions whatsoever were to be expected, only that it did not set up war as an inevitable consequence.

What you said was that "Brandon acted extreme(ly unreasonable)" which in my book is simply at the best case scenario victim blaming.

Pray tell, if war was obviously a foreseeable consequence, why did Rickard not take any military action, at least raise his banners, collect a host in order to exert pressure to bargain with?

Who said that Rickard was better than Lyanna? For all we knew he would gladly sold his daughter to Rhaegar.

Because why bother bringing a factual argument and actually adress the point when this is an option?

Because isn’t a point at all, is a wannabe smart gag which fails it’s purpose.

I am out.

[Julia Martell]

I am out.

Word girlfriend.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Maybe, but I think Robert's beef was with how Aerys wanted him dead for no reason. Rhaegar could have sweetened the pot (dragonstone or some crownlands) for him to ignore the whole Lyanna thing.

I definitely completely totally doubt Robert would ignore that Rhaegar took Lyanna, even if Lyanna herself told him she did it willingly. I agree that Robert wanted Aerys dead for wanting him dead as well, but I also believe he hated Rhaegar with the same passion for have taken what it was "his", maybe even thinking they were both allied. For what we know, Aerys had no idea where the hell Lyanna was.

R+L created only a spark, but Aerys actually blew into it until it became proper fire... (if we are going to use this metaphor)

Yes, this part I agree. Had Aerys being a reasonable man, he could have summoned Rhaegar and Brandon (and his father) and solve the situation with words and promises. Even a duel to first blood (like the one Oberyn had) if needed but definitely not what he did to the Starks.

The chain of events is rather complicated because this one goes into circles where Aerys madness plays a key role. Simply, no madness, no need for Harrenhal (if it indeed was some sort of secretive Great Council), no R+L, thus no eloping and no Brandon's fury. Simply, when you see it, it always came down to Aerys. He had power to avert the chain and he simply didn't. He is the key link...

And no Dany and half the board would be happy.

Yes, Aerys madness plays a key role, that I agree. But once the rebellion started, I think there is a reason why it's called "Robert Rebellion" and not "Ned" or "The Starks" and it's because he, at the end, not only won but killed Rhaegar, the heir.

(and yes, I don't like the bastard either...).

[Mladen]

If Aerys was out of the picture Rhaegar, who had done something that not even Aerys had dared to, was the King. Is there anyway for us to know that Rhaegar wouldn't be worse than Aerys?

...

I am out.

We don't know but given what we have been told about Rhaegar, he certainly was quite different from Aerys...

Also, I forget... I think congrats are in order. You fulfilled your promise and I can only say that I love and appreciate you for that...

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Word girlfriend.

It's not my fault! I was watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAbWmjUyhhs 0:15. :D

Also, I forget... I think congrats are in order. You fulfilled your promise and I can only say that I love and appreciate you for that...

Thank you! But, what promise? :idea:

[Mladen]

Thank you! But, what promise? :idea:

We made the pact at the end of the year for the sake of our friendship and as far as I know, you honored it... It was about your trollish activity on one subject :)

[Jory Cassel]

Jaime at least tried to help people in KL. All Lyanna and Rhaegar did was copulate. So imnsho it’s worse.

Not adressing the point, I've repeated it several times now:

Jamie is undoubtedly worse as he knowingly risked war by having an affair with the queen and producing illegitimate children repeatedly over a period of fifteen years and was perfectly willing to go to war for it, he is much closer to causing war regarding causality and actually supplied a direct reason for it. Opposed to that, the abduction itself was not even the reason for war, neither was Brandon's imprisonment following the abduction.

Furthermore, Jaime did commit more atrocious acts in addition to that, e.g. actually start a war by invading the riverlands (which should be worse than simply being causal by your own standards), attempting to kill an innocent child etc.

What you said was that "Brandon acted extreme(ly unreasonable)" which in my book is simply at the best case scenario victim blaming.

Again, not adressing the point, your strawmen of me supposedly absolving them of any blame does not change the fact that Brandon did act extremely unreasonable. Now, by your own standards, Lyanna was to expect war as a consequence, in which case Brandon should've, too, making his action all the more unreasonable.

Who said that Rickard was better than Lyanna? For all we knew he would gladly sold his daughter to Rhaegar.

Still not adressing the point at all. If war 'obviously' could not be avoided, and, by your own standards, expected by Lyanna, an experienced ruler like Rickards definitely should have.

Because isn’t a point at all, is a wannabe smart gag which fails it’s purpose.

I don't think it failed considering that you still refuse to adress it and instead insist on calling me a troll.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

We made the pact at the end of the year for the sake of our friendship and as far as I know, you honored it... It was about your trollish activity on one subject :)

Silly me :bang: I should understand. I was like http://data3.whicdn.com/images/28274523/large.gif . Saw everything tried too hard to not speak. :D THANK YOU ANYWAY! :cheers:

Too much alcohol right now.

[Kiss of Fire 2]

In Dany's POV...she says Rhaegar died defending the woman he loved....

Who told her that? Or why does she think that?

So to answer the OP...Yes!..no kidnapping...true love or hot lust...married or no......it was mutual.

Jon Snow would kill himself if he found out he was the product of rape....he can barely tolerate the fact he is a bastard.