RoamingRonin Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Even if he thinks Joff is a Baratheon, a discharge of a job doesnt mean his oath to the Baratheon line as dinasty is done. He recognized them as rightful kings as any westerosi knight or Lord. Unlist his oath was ..."as long as you let me keep my fancy Job"... What are you even talking about. Seriously. I don't mean to be rude by asking but Joff dismissed him. He was not a kingsguard member anymore according to the new rules. He would have to go to Stannis (just realized Stannis doesn't have a kingsguard?!) and swear new oaths. Instead he went to the Targaryen claimant to do just that. It's not as if he could just go to whichever king was present and they would have to accept him. Cliff: - Swears oaths to Targaryen. - Swears new oaths to Robert. - Robert's heir dismisses him. - Disses Renly, Robb and Stannis for Dany. - Swears new oaths to Dany. - Profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindchap Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 No. He's already sworn to her queensguard. He didn't leave the Mad King and he didn't leave Robert. Joff had to dismiss him. His entirely too loyal to be so wishy-washy.Barristan was there when Aegon's corpse was presented. Hearing Aegon is alive would not be enough to sway him. Dany's legitimacy cannot be contested. Besides, he is too invested in her campaign to just drop everything because he heard the true king lives.Selmy was not there when the kids were laid before Robert:“Prince Rhaegar had two children,” Ser Barristan told him. “Rhaenys was a little girl, Aegon a babe in arms. When Tywin Lannister took King’sLanding, his men killed both of them. He served the bloody bodies up in crimson cloaks, a gift for the new king.” And what did Robert say when hesaw them? Did he smile? Barristan Selmy had been badly wounded on the Trident, so he had been spared the sight of Lord Tywin’s gift, but oft hewondered. If I had seen him smile over the red ruins of Rhaegar’s children, no army on this earth could have stopped me from killing him. “I willnot suffer the murder of children. Accept that, or I’ll have no part of this.”As to the OPPossible WoW spoiler:I think he is fully behind Dany at this point, he's seen her good and her bad and he's still defending her even though a fair few people are convinced she's dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor de la Tormenta Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 What are you even talking about. Seriously. I don't mean to be rude by asking but Joff dismissed him. He was not a kingsguard member anymore according to the new rules. He would have to go to Stannis (just realized Stannis doesn't have a kingsguard?!) and swear new oaths. Instead he went to the Targaryen claimant to do just that. It's not as if he could just go to whichever king was present and they would have to accept him. Cliff:- Swears oaths to Targaryen.- Swears new oaths to Robert.- Robert's heir dismisses him.- Disses Renly, Robb and Stannis for Dany.- Swears new oaths to Dany.- Profit. Joffrey dismissed him from a job. That doesnt invalidate that he accepted and sworn the Baratheon line as rightful Kings.His King said he should retire in the lands he gave him, and his duty was to obbey. As KG or as a random knight or random westerosi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubarey Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 "and he was sworn to house Baratheon...his place was with Stannis. " He was never sworn to the Barqtheons. He was a Kings Guard before Robert took the crown once the Mad King was killed, Robert became the undisputed King and his previous oath to guard and obay the King required him to follow Robert (it can be argued that like the first Targ Robert reigned by right of conquest). Once Robert died, Joffrey was the heir. While Ned Stark said Joffrey was the product of Jaime's and Cersi's incest he gave no proof. Under those circumstances he correctly transferred his loyalty to Joffrey. When he was illegally removed from the Kings Guard his oath was dissolved. And being removed from the KG does dissolve the oath as it was given in connection with his being a member of the Guard for life. If the ruling King breaks the bargain then the oath is dissolved. He went to Dany and pledged himself to her. It's questionable whether he is technically a part of her's King Guard or simply a lord that has pledged himself to Dany. This is important because if it's the latter he cannot morally switch to A even if he thinks he has a better claim to the thrown. If its the first then he would face a dillema but only if he was offered undisputable proof of A's legitimacy until that happened he would be compelled by his personal oath to serve Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Joffrey dismissed him from a job. That doesnt invalidate that he accepted and sworn the Baratheon line as rightful Kings. He swore to defend and protect Robert, not the Baratheon line. When he took that oath Robert had no children to inherit. Going to Stannis after his dismissal would have meant rising against the crowned king sitting on the throne, and contributing the chaos and bloodshed in the realm. He went looking for someone he could serve with honor. He would have been uneasy under Stannis, and Renly was a jerk for even making a claim. Daenerys is young but if she'll listen to him, and others who are older and wiser than she is, she'll make a great ruler one day. Back to the topic. No, he will not leave Daenerys unless he dies or she does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaseBornBastard Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 If he was truly convinced that he was Rhaegar's son, then I don't think it's implausible. Either way, he's never making it out of Slaver's Bay alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Selmy feels he failed the Targaryens and he should have be on their side since day one. Probably he felt that Robert proved him wrong and he was onthe path to be a great King, but he got sooner disappointed, specially after his son was crowned. Will he leav Dany? Depends. If he knows his claim is rightful and he's real, he might even try to convince her to join him so the Targaryen claim turns stronger than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toed Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I don't know if Selmy was ever really that dedicated to the Barathon dynasty. In fact, I'd say his chosing Dany over any of the other claimants just goes to show how far his devotion to her cause goes. I'd infer that he deeply regrets abandoning his oaths to Aerys and seeks some degree of atonement through supporting the Mad King's last surviving child. I mean, the guy tossed aside his cloak, threw his sword at the kings feet, crossed the narrow sea and searched Essos for her. He's expressed many times that she would make a good Queen, offered her sound advice, and - as was mentioned - has seen her at her best and her worst, sticking with her through both. He knows Tywin Lannister doesn't mess around (and neither does the Mountain) so I highly doubt he would abandon Danaerys (crossing the narrow sea again) because some boy says he's Rhaegar Targaryan's long-lost son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fresh PtwP Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 If anything I could see Barristan advising Dany to seek out Aegon instead of you know going all fire and blood on him.But no he is pretty invested in Dany and semi adores her so he won't swap teams IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Selmy was not there when the kids were laid before Robert: As to the OP Possible WoW spoiler:I think he is fully behind Dany at this point, he's seen her good and her bad and he's still defending her even though a fair few people are convinced she's dead. Oh, my fault. I recalled him saying he was there and if he saw Robert smile he would have killed him. Got one part right at least. *whiteflag* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 He swore to defend and protect Robert, not the Baratheon line. When he took that oath Robert had no children to inherit. Going to Stannis after his dismissal would have meant rising against the crowned king sitting on the throne, and contributing the chaos and bloodshed in the realm. He went looking for someone he could serve with honor. He would have been uneasy under Stannis, and Renly was a jerk for even making a claim. Daenerys is young but if she'll listen to him, and others who are older and wiser than she is, she'll make a great ruler one day. Back to the topic. No, he will not leave Daenerys unless he dies or she does. I assume the oaths include any future heirs of the King, rather than just swearing to the individual. Otherwise it would open up a whole can of worms, with Kingsguard no longer being bound as soon as the reigning king died That said, I agree that Selmy is pretty blameless as far as what happened in AGOT. His honor was screwed no matter what: he still believes Joffrey is the rightful heir, so he can't betray him for Stannis. On the other hand he would have become complicit in Joffrey/the Lannister's crimes if he had stayed on with them. But getting fired for the first time in Kingsguard history wasn't the ideal way to go either... All in all, Selmy handled it well by sticking to what he believed was right and trekking across the Earth to find Viserys and Daenerys. Would have been much easier and more rewarding just to join Stannis or Renly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindchap Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Oh, my fault. I recalled him saying he was there and if he saw Robert smile he would have killed him. Got one pat right at least. *whiteflag* I actually thought the same thing once and had it pointed out to me, that's the only reason I remembered. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 It'd make Selmy look uncommitted, flighty, flitting here and there. And part of his plot is that this is his last chance because..... old. So he's made his choice and will abide by it, says I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeStallion Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Who says he needs to switch sides? (F)Aegon knows Dany has dragons, and he believes he needs her to truly secure Westeros. He was convinced by Tyrion to try and take Westeros by force and it could help soften the landing for when Dany gets there. Whether or not Barristan needs to switch sides would be irrelevant at this point because (F)Aegon wants to be on the same side as Dany, and if Dany meets (F)Aegon, her sense of having to marry somebody to keep the peace and secure her position would lead her to accept him as husband (and given the fact that (F)Aegon, real or not, has been raised and educated to be a good king would put Dany into a no-brainer position judging from her past actions). There would have to be some kind of major fall out for Aegon and Dany to oppose one another, there seems to be so much mutual benefit between the two. (F)Aegon wants Dany as a queen and an equal, but of course the wild card here is Dany's transformation during her final chapter in Dance (if indeed it is a transformation of personality). All of the above are possible because there is evidence for Dany to change internally, but there's also precedent that she may choose (F)Aegon to be her husband, and so Barristan doesn't need to switch sides at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 ^I agree with Orangestallion- this all hinges on the idea that Dany and fAegon are destined for conflict. If they ever interact, I have no doubt it will be as allies, either betrothed or actually married. But my personal theory is that Euron will kill fAegon (with a dragon, no less!) before the pretender even meets Dany. The second Dance of Dragons will be Euron vs. Dany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylin Stark Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Firstly, Barry will need irrefutable evidence that Aegon is truly who he claims he is.Then Dany will have to do something really stupid which leads Barry wanting to break his vows and switch sides. Perhaps this will be her last betrayal. Barry could leave her when he finds out about his prince's son being alive. But even if he does leave Dany, I doubt he'll survive long enough to get there.My guess is he'll advise Dany to join Aegon, she'll refuse saying the imposter must be killed, he'll leave, but Dany will burn him.Sick, I know, but I wouldn't put it past Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeStallion Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 ^I agree with Orangestallion- this all hinges on the idea that Dany and fAegon are destined for conflict. If they ever interact, I have no doubt it will be as allies, either betrothed or actually married. But my personal theory is that Euron will kill fAegon (with a dragon, no less!) before the pretender even meets Dany Im with you here that the main conflict will be between the ironborn and fAegon, but somehow I see Dany coming to Westeros with the iron born ships, and agreeing to an alliance (or marriage) with Euron before spurning him when they land and realize that fAegon has ascended the throne. What Euron does after this in my prediction is anyone's guess, but he won't like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuem Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 No he sworn his sword to her, he is not the man to against his sworn word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Im with you here that the main conflict will be between the ironborn and fAegon, but somehow I see Dany coming to Westeros with the iron born ships, and agreeing to an alliance (or marriage) with Euron before spurning him when they land and realize that fAegon has ascended the throne. What Euron does after this in my prediction is anyone's guess, but he won't like it Thing is, I think Euron is savvy enough to know that the last Targaryen Princess might want to marry the last "Targaryen" Prince. So neutralizing fAegon before she lands, making himself the best option, would be the way to go for Euron. And dragons would be a quick way to do that Of course this series is impossible to predict, but I like this theory because it would establish Euron as a big boss villain, set up a nice conflict between him and Dany, and be very unexpected. fAegon has the "noble, brave, warrior Prince" vibe of Robb Stark or Rhaegar, thus marking him as doomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Not a chance. He will remain loyal to his queen. I don't think he'll believe Aegon is legit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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