Bran and Bloodraven and aBomination

[Lady Blizzardborn]

And what kind of message would that be?

Persons with a mental defect just need someone to warg them so they can speak? And they are only cool if they can speak ?

That is what bugs me about the Hodor speaking. It would be a horrible message.

Uh...you do know this is a fantasy story right? We don't know why Hodor only says Hodor. We don't know that he has a "mental defect." And I haven't seen anyone say that speaking would make him cool. In fact a lot of people think he's cool as he is and would consider him less cool if he was like everyone else.

Looking for the link. By the way it doesn't say he'll speak just like regular people, but he will say more than just Hodor. Actually it's possible that he'll do it on his own, forced by the trauma of having been warged repeatedly. But I still think Bloodraven will warg him to get out of there.

Hodor is a brand of Westerosi whiskey. Poor guy's just been trying to get a drink all these years. ;)

[Metopheles]

Hodor is a brand of Westerosi whiskey. Poor guy's just been trying to get a drink all these years. ;)

ha :D

[kephv]

I'm am just mighty suspicious of Bloodraven's endgame, and unfortunately, this idea sprung in my mind during my last reread. Perhaps the reason for the Varymr prologue was to warn us of this possiblity?

Absolutely. Actually, this is right in line with what I was thinking, except I think you have the wrong Stark. Bloodraven wants someone to replace him and he needs Bran for that. And why take a crippled body? Mostly likely he'd want someone with some command, something similar to where he left off when he went to live in the cave. This would situate him to come back into power, oppose the new Blackfyre invasion, and give him a chance to lord it up over the seven kingdoms again.

That is, he could have Jon Snow, if he could heal him, which he probably could. This could be the real three eyed crow, and be the start of the three-headed dragon (three minds in one body).

[Metopheles]

That is, he could have Jon Snow, if he could heal him, which he probably could. This could be the real three eyed crow, and be the start of the three-headed dragon (three minds in one body).

Explain further ?

Sounds interesting. But how does Bloodraven get into Jon ? and who will be the third mind inside the dragon ? the dragon itself ?

[Tormund GiantsMANE]

why would Bloodraven need the BODY of a crippled Warg to Warg others? If it's just his consciousness that enters the body of another,then even assuming Bran is out warging his wolf when BR takes him over, he's still as crippled as ever and woun't be able to upgrade his physical abilities until he encountered an able bodied warg who was out warging another creature to take his body. The rub there IMHO is that he could have warged any number of creatures before he had Bran go north of the Wall to achieve the same end. If John Snow was the "persona" he wanted, then why not slip into his skin while he's wolf dreaming and BR is warging Mormont's raven? Seems to me like BR should be able to skinchange into just about anything he wants whenver he wants (1000 eyes in one) as poweful as he is, and if he had wanted to
"possess" someone he could. I also see no benefit in teaching Bran a whole buncha warging/skinchanging/cotf stuff just to steal his body and ride around on hodor's back.

[Metopheles]

Wouldn't it be comic if BR wargs into Bran and thinks yes! yes! and wants to stand up, just to not being able to and the cotf come by and say "Hah, good deal, right ?"

I

[kephv]

Explain further ?

Sounds interesting. But how does Bloodraven get into Jon ? and who will be the third mind inside the dragon ? the dragon itself ?

How does any warg get into anything else? They just do -- granted, there wouldn't be a struggle this time as there was in the Dance prologue with Varamyr and Thistle, since Jon would most likely be inside Ghost. As for the third head, obviously it's short one, but who's to say what's already inside Bloodraven, or if not, who could join them later -- I meant another person, but I have no idea who it could be.

[Metopheles]

How does any warg get into anything else? They just do -- granted, there wouldn't be a struggle this time as there was in the Dance prologue with Varamyr and Thistle, since Jon would most likely be inside Ghost. As for the third head, obviously it's short one, but who's to say what's already inside Bloodraven, or if not, who could join them later -- I meant another person, but I have no idea who it could be.

But Jon's body at least unable to move at the Wall, and Ghost too or at least near it...

And Melisandre... She just burned that eagle, god knows why. Doesn't BR fear she would simply do this, once she feels a warg thing going on?

[kephv]

But Jon's body at least unable to move at the Wall, and Ghost too or at least near it...

And Melisandre... She just burned that eagle, god knows why. Doesn't BR fear she would simply do this, once she feels a warg thing going on?

I don't know; she'd have to burn Jon's body then, and it's not even clear if she's going to stick with him the entire time or not. Anway, I don't picture this happening any time soon -- that is, not right after his assassination. I feel he's going to have to go north, past the Wall, first, to be healed or resurrected or whatever (another reason to think this is because his journey always parallels Dany's to some extent, and Dany is about to do the same before she heads back south). Plus, there's some loose ends he has to tie up there, such dealing with the Weeper and his men.

[Metopheles]

I don't know; she'd have to burn Jon's body then, and it's not even clear if she's going to stick with him the entire time or not. Anway, I don't picture this happening any time soon -- that is, not right after his assassination. I feel he's going to have to go north, past the Wall, first, to be healed or resurrected or whatever (another reason to think this is because his journey always parallels Dany's to some extent, and Dany is about to do the same before she heads back south). Plus, there's some loose ends he has to tie up there, such dealing with the Weeper and his men.

No I rather think Melisandre would protect Jon from such a thing. I think she got some major crush on Jon. She does everything to get his favor and saved Mance for him, she is so obsessed with him, I doubt she would give up his soul, now that she has him.

She would only cripple BR or whatever is BR warging to force him to do it

[binga]

Bloodraven doesn't move anyways so why wouldn't he be willing to warg into Bran? He would have new life and perhaps Bran in raw talent is even more powerful than Bloodraven. Walking around isn't central to Bloodraven's mission and Bran is perfectly healthy otherwise. He also has the children of the forest to carry him around. I have had this theory for a long time now. I even wonder if the great Other or a child of the forest is currently inhabiting the body of Bloodraven.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Here's a thought: Jon is led to the cave by Hodor, sees Bran sitting there becoming Branch, offers to take his little brother's place.

Bloodraven will probably contact Jon while he is unconscious (I don't think he's dead, by the way, just badly wounded), same as he did with Bran.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Blazfemur, on 25 Mar 2014 - 4:34 PM, said:

In reference to the original post, I've actually thought about this idea for awhile. In truth, I think Bloodraven is trapped in that cave by magic, and that's why he chose to train bran and get the hell out.

I was always betting, Bloodraven does a possession type-thing by way of warg, and bran and him swap bodies, or, Bloodraven takes his body by force, and buries Bran deep within like Bran does with Hodor. Bloodraven's body is old, decayed, and for all intents and purposes, trapped, as weirwood roots imprison his body through the flesh and bone to chain him to that throne in the cave.

The same magic that keeps the wights/whitewalkers out of the cave, could be the same magic that keeps Bloodraven in. Could very well be the same magic that is apparent at the weirwood door underneath the wall. Now, while Bloodraven is in fact a Targaryen, who are known to show extended life, no one's ever thought that Bloodraven could already be dead, a similar revenant that Coldhands is. If this is true, and a ward/barrier was raised in that cave, it could be possible he's trapped in there and needs a living body to leave.

It's even furthermore possible, Coldhands delivered Bran to the cave to meet Bloodraven, knowing Bloodraven's plan to escape. Not much is known about Coldhands either other than he was a member of the Night's Watch.

Excluding a Coldhands crackpot conspiracy though, I always believed since we met Bloodraven as an imprisoned-by-weirwood revenant, that he woul dneed Bran's body to get the hell out of there. Better a broken, crippled body, than a decaying, rotting one that's imprisoned by magic.

Based on his own words and his appearance I'll say that Bloodraven is already dead. He carries on only as a consciousness supported by the weirwood web that retains an ability to communicate. Think of his appearance -- he's decaying, with some of his bones already visible through his skin. The roots of the weirwoods grow through him, including through his head, to pop out his empty eye socket, implying that the root has grown through his brain, and through his thigh, among other things.

More important is what he says. When Bran asks BR his name he says "when I was quick I was called Brandon." "Quick" means alive. BR is no longer alive. When he fades completely, losing the ability to communicate and control the physical world, I think he will do what other greenseers and skinchangers have done -- merge with the weirwoods and/or his closest animal. Expect a lot more from Mormont's raven.

This is my theory, derived from hints and such, about how BR got to the CotF. If my math is correct, he was 57 when he was sent to the Wall, which is quite mature for an medieval man that's spent the previous 12 years in the black cells. I'm assuming, however, that because he's a sorcerer and skinchanger, he already knows about the CotF, the greenseers, the cavern, etc., he might have already visited them in animal form. So when, after serving as LC for some time, BR feels that his useful life is ending, he does what Northern elders do -- he rides out into a blizzard to die. BR's magic gets him to the cavern, the CotF put him in his chair, feed him some weirwood soup, and that's the end of his human life.

I don’t think BR and the CotF are evil, but I don’t believe that they care about human values and ambitions anymore. I take that back, sort of; BR certainly cares about Jon, but Jon, I believe has a supernatural destiny. Let’s say that they have a different agenda and that they’re indifferent to certain human standards and sensibilities. They probably think that it’s better for Bran to become a greenseer than to go back to his family, especially because Bran, and his friends, are magically protected while in the cavern. They might also think that it’s good and fine to sacrifice Jojen to do the blood magic required to hook Bran up to the weirwood web. Sooooo . . . some of this and some of that.

[The Mother of The Others]

Being warged is the onramp Hodor has to functioning more fully. The BS we engage in about respecting the sanctity of such minds is because we don't have the ability to heal them and draw them out of their bubble existence...... which is what the warging can do. So he's scared of it now. So? My feral cat was scared of me for months while I fed it and took it inside and taught it to not be afraid.

[Metopheles]

So he's scared of it now. So? My feral cat was scared of me for months while I fed it and took it inside and taught it to not be afraid.

But you did not enter her/his mind to teach her/him not to be afraid. I think as cool and special warging is, I am with the wildlings that there are limits, and I would say that warging should not be done to any animal. We saw that Varamyr mistreated the animals. They don't like it.

What if (I don't believe it) the dragons are being warged at some point.. what if they defend themselves against it, they could go mad and crazy and burn cities because of that.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Being warged is the onramp Hodor has to functioning more fully. The BS we engage in about respecting the sanctity of such minds is because we don't have the ability to heal them and draw them out of their bubble existence...... which is what the warging can do. So he's scared of it now. So? My feral cat was scared of me for months while I fed it and took it inside and taught it to not be afraid.

It would be interesting if Hodor's lack of speech is due not to any kind of deficiency but to past trauma. Could a more powerful and more experienced skinchanger/weirperson like Bloodraven find that out and use warging to somehow help Hodor?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

But you did not enter her/his mind to teach her/him not to be afraid. I think as cool and special warging is, I am with the wildlings that there are limits, and I would say that warging should not be done to any animal. We saw that Varamyr mistreated the animals. They don't like it.

What if (I don't believe it) the dragons are being warged at some point.. what if they defend themselves against it, they could go mad and crazy and burn cities because of that.

What should they warg then, daisies? Varamyr was a scum-sucking (deleted by censors). None of the Starks have mistreated their warg-buddies.

You bring up an interesting point about dragons. If the wrong person gets a hold of one, warging could actually save the day and simultaneously destroy a lot.

[The Black Kraken]

Maybe Bloodraven has lived a long and tiresome life of being the old god, and now he wants to pass on the torch.. No secret agenda

[Aetta]

We have some good ideas.

The next king after Aerys I, Egg's father, Maekar, had him thrown in the dungeons because Bloodraven was picked over him for the job of Hand. His reign is marked by watching for the greater threat of Blackfyre rebellions, which were still a huge problem at the time because Aerys was a pretty ineffective king and it would be easy for the people to rally around someone else.

After Aerys dies, Maekar takes the job and chucks him into the dungeons. For what, we don't quite know as he served House Targaryen pretty faithfully, so unless Maekar REALLY carries a grudge (which I don't think he does to the extreme enough to chuck BR in the dungeons for it) that means BR was doing something shady or appeared to be shady. I reckon he was suspected of killing Aerys or something.

Emphasis on appeared. Lord Bloodraven's appearances in D & E leave little doubt that he is a true gem. His timing, his badassness, his deadpan humor, the way he teases with Egg, and all of the between the lines stuff, make it very hard to believe that he is malicious. Calculated, yes...malicious, not too sure. I do know for sure that the line about 'shit upon your shoulder' still gets me...

At any rate, I have a theory that I can't quite communicate clearly, but let's just say that I think that whatever Bloodraven did to find himself in the black cells was for the sake of Egg, something that appeared bad, but was pure of intent.

I love that old tree man. Bran should be so lucky as to embody Lord Brynden Rivers upon his death. I am hoping that whatever Bran and BR are up to, that the Long Night to come has a cyclical nature, as mythology so often does, and both can be rejuvinated, reborn, regenerated after the winter.

[A Bastard Snow]

I find it highly suspicious that they are so eager to bring Bran into the fold.People automatically assume that BloodRaven/Children are out to stop the walkers.If that was the case wouldn't they you know have sent some sort of message to the watch? or at the very least kept reminding them of the true purpose of the watch? It seems like they have sat in the cave just waiting for Bran to show up.Considering they have the ability to control (or at least restore) coldhands I think its safe to think they have the ability to control other...others.

Personally I think they need Bran to break the blood seals and are using him.