Bran and Bloodraven and aBomination

[Big Daddy]

I like the "Tale of the Body Thief" idea with BR leaving the cave on Hodor's shoulders in Bran's body. The mental image of Bran screaming, trapped deep down in his own body while BR leaves with some agenda would be a pretty chilling cliffhanger end to a chapter.

It doesn't seem like the character that's been set up so far, so I'm not committing to this theory. We'll see I suppose. It just sounds like an interesting one that would jumpstart Bran's story arc again. All of the major POV characters have to keep moving and their status quos change from book to book (ie Tyrion as Hand, later on the run, Jon on the run, later LC, etc) . Bran is going to need to have some interesting crap happen to him in TWOW to keep his OWN arc from getting stagnant. No way is he staying in that cave for the rest of the series. He's either getting out with BR help, or he's getting out to stop some plot of BR from unfolding.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Being warged is the onramp Hodor has to functioning more fully. The BS we engage in about respecting the sanctity of such minds is because we don't have the ability to heal them and draw them out of their bubble existence...... which is what the warging can do. So he's scared of it now. So? My feral cat was scared of me for months while I fed it and took it inside and taught it to not be afraid.

I do think Hodor being warged may be the eventual 'on switch' to his mind, it is a distinct possiblity. I'm just wishing for Bran to stop doing this to Hodor against his will, but I do think there is a chance that somehow it will unlock something in Hodor's mind and help him. I just hate when I see those that post the idea that all Hodor is meant to be is a pair of legs for Bran. I love Hodor and even if he, HE, can eventually talk, I think I'd miss all the Hodoring. :crying:

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I find it highly suspicious that they are so eager to bring Bran into the fold.People automatically assume that BloodRaven/Children are out to stop the walkers.If that was the case wouldn't they you know have sent some sort of message to the watch? or at the very least kept reminding them of the true purpose of the watch? It seems like they have sat in the cave just waiting for Bran to show up.Considering they have the ability to control (or at least restore) coldhands I think its safe to think they have the ability to control other...others.

Personally I think they need Bran to break the blood seals and are using him.

Thoughts like these are also what lead me to the original OP. Not knowing what the CotF's true endgame entails is a thought that is with me when I read, and you've pointed out some very common sense solutions that the Children seem to have ignored.

Also, I wanted to thank everyone for all the answers and participation in the thread. I've been short on free time the past few days and this is the first I've been able to try and catch up on the thread. Being as this is a subject I turn over in my mind, I'd like to give the posts some serious consideration and thought, too. Being as I'm short on time, I just wanted to thank everyone and I'm off to see if I can find some fun around here, I'll be back for serious thought later, perhaps. ;) :P :D

[binga]

There is obviously some twist to Bran's storyline, something that has been kept from the readers. Otherwise George would have given him more chapters in ADWD.

[Ser Creighton]

Oddily enough, this isn't one of my favorite parts of the series but here goes my question?

I've always felt that there is something ominous and not on the up and up with the idea of Bran being stuck in that cave with Bloodraven. I can't put my finger on it, I can't say that it won't serve some good purpose, but I can't get rid of the feeling that Bran needs to get the heck out of there eventually and may have to do so with some kind of force. All those feelings are what has lead me to this question and I wonder if anyone has considered this idea or what they may think of it:

Is it possible that Bloodraven is training Bran with the eventual goal of stealing Bran's body for his second life, once his own is about to expire? The more that Bloodraven trains Bran to use the skills, the better Bran's body would be for a second life for Bloodraven himself. I find it hard to believe that Bloodraven isn't aware of Bran's warging of Hodor, and on rereads I always wonder why (if he does know) nothing is said. All it might take is one opportunity of Bran walking around in Hodor's skin, and WHAMMO......Bloodraven steals Bran's body and unlike Varymr's concern's, Bloodraven has a second life and the chance to still be a skilled skinchanger, if not even more skilled than previously.

I'm am just mighty suspicious of Bloodraven's endgame, and unfortunately, this idea sprung in my mind during my last reread. Perhaps the reason for the Varymr prologue was to warn us of this possiblity?

I'll be happy to put your finger on it. What? You had to know it was coming at some point.

Seriously though, I have been working on something involving this for awhile now and the one thing it comes to is Bloodraven does not need Brans body. Any body will do, it's the mind that matters for Wargs the body is just a vessel, even their own. Though something does not seem right in the cave, though I am not sure what it is, maybe Bran is the actual danger, or Hodor may snap while Bran is warging him. I get mixed signals from Bloodraven, something really isn't right there, but what it is I can't say or won't say really, as to what I think it is that is.

An Arya chapter really has me wondering about him. That scene at High Heart, I always got the feeling that the Ghost was not speaking to Arya, but to Bloodraven. I wonder if Bloodraven has not touched all the Stark children's minds. Grief never fit Arya all that well, she was much more about rage, but Bloodraven has grieved. Brining up Summerhall, the Bloodchild and Darkheart, I don't know that they fit all that well. I mean Arya had some bad things happen to her, but it's really no worse than a lot of people in Westeros, tons of death, people losing loved ones all over the place. It just felt to me as if she was speaking to something older and more deep seeded. Something that scared her, and hurt her, something she has known for awhile. Also the Ghost stays in a place where the weirwoods are blind, though the old gods linger.

[Metopheles]

Maybe Bloodraven has lived a long and tiresome life of being the old god, and now he wants to pass on the torch.. No secret agenda

:agree:

[Ser Creighton]

:agree:

We will see no gods in the series, confirmed by Martin.

[Metopheles]

We will see no gods in the series, confirmed by Martin.

huh ? Did I what ? I never said so. I agreed to the part that BR is just what he seems, an eternally old guy, benevolent and good at heart (except for the warging craziness who I can't live with) who wants to die.

[Blazfemur]

huh ? Did I what ? I never said so. I agreed to the part that BR is just what he seems, an eternally old guy, benevolent and good at heart (except for the warging craziness who I can't live with) who wants to die.

zzzZZZzzz

[Metopheles]

What should they warg then, daisies? Varamyr was a scum-sucking (deleted by censors). None of the Starks have mistreated their warg-buddies.

You bring up an interesting point about dragons. If the wrong person gets a hold of one, warging could actually save the day and simultaneously destroy a lot.

Don't warg at all...

And I highly doubt that the Stark wolves are so crazy about being warged. I think they might be less likely to block their wargs, but I think this might stem from being loyal and blind in following. Maybe like a need and desire for leadership and being subjugated by a pack leader. An alpha male.. I don't know, I think warging isn't the prime of humane (whatever the definition of that word) treatment of anything.

Super weapons, super tools, super methods, the atom bomb, internet spying, these are all great things to use, super things, but use them responsible. And the most responsible way of using them, is to not use them. It's like the lion tamer. It is amazing that it works, but the animal might object. If you want the animal do something, let it do it on its own will, not because you force it. That's not special.

so philosophical. -.-

I guess this has to be done, to fit the genre and the story. warging the trees, do it.. but humans..dragons...at least not the dragons. They belong to the Targaryens. They belong to their mother, not anyone else.

I get that in this forum, and all the fans love it, I am uncertain about it.

Plus, think about it... isn't it such a plot gift, deus ex machina ? Literally everything can now be forced by Bran, He can literally write history. ..

[Tormund GiantsMANE]

I'll be happy to put your finger on it. What? You had to know it was coming at some point.

Seriously though, I have been working on something involving this for awhile now and the one thing it comes to is Bloodraven does not need Brans body. Any body will do, it's the mind that matters for Wargs the body is just a vessel, even their own. Though something does not seem right in the cave, though I am not sure what it is, maybe Bran is the actual danger, or Hodor may snap while Bran is warging him. I get mixed signals from Bloodraven, something really isn't right there, but what it is I can't say or won't say really, as to what I think it is that is.

An Arya chapter really has me wondering about him. That scene at High Heart, I always got the feeling that the Ghost was not speaking to Arya, but to Bloodraven. I wonder if Bloodraven has not touched all the Stark children's minds. Grief never fit Arya all that well, she was much more about rage, but Bloodraven has grieved. Brining up Summerhall, the Bloodchild and Darkheart, I don't know that they fit all that well. I mean Arya had some bad things happen to her, but it's really no worse than a lot of people in Westeros, tons of death, people losing loved ones all over the place. It just felt to me as if she was speaking to something older and more deep seeded. Something that scared her, and hurt her, something she has known for awhile. Also the Ghost stays in a place where the weirwoods are blind, though the old gods linger.

Going back to the "Bloodraven doesn't need BRAN'S body"/"any body will do" angle and the Varamyr prologue, one might think that BR wouldn't want to try to take over Bran's body. We see a feeble minded Hodor very much present while Bran wargs him, though he is powerless while being warged. At the same time you see Varamyr warg/skinchange Thistle, and her reaction (that of a person will normal mental capacity/ability) is quite different, despite being warged by someone who has changed into several animals and even people. My point is Varamyr, couldn't fully control Thistle when he took her body...how are we to know that BR would be able to subdue and control Bran's conciousness given Bran's own skills and abilities. BR is teaching/training Bran for something big. Brans abilities and powers are growing, but all of that is mental not physical. What would be the point of all of that mental training if you're going to subdue someone's consciousness?

BR and the Cotf may have an endgame that is less "noble" than some of us assume, but I have serious doubts that it involves hurting Bran, or tricking him into being stuck in the cave in BR's decayed body.

[Blazfemur]

Going back to the "Bloodraven doesn't need BRAN'S body"/"any body will do" angle and the Varamyr prologue, one might think that BR wouldn't want to try to take over Bran's body. We see a feeble minded Hodor very much present while Bran wargs him, though he is powerless while being warged. At the same time you see Varamyr warg/skinchange Thistle, and her reaction (that of a person will normal mental capacity/ability) is quite different, despite being warged by someone who has changed into several animals and even people. My point is Varamyr, couldn't fully control Thistle when he took her body...how are we to know that BR would be able to subdue and control Bran's conciousness given Bran's own skills and abilities. BR is teaching/training Bran for something big. Brans abilities and powers are growing, but all of that is mental not physical. What would be the point of all of that mental training if you're going to subdue someone's consciousness?

BR and the Cotf may have an endgame that is less "noble" than some of us assume, but I have serious doubts that it involves hurting Bran, or tricking him into being stuck in the cave in BR's decayed body.

*queue the muppets 'we ain't got no room for boring' theme*

Would a super-being want to take over a body with zero ability? or would his powers flourish in a vessel with already-tapped potential? and it might be the other way around, the more bran realizes his abilities, the easier it is for Bloodraven to tap into it. you never know. like the more powerful bloodraven makes bran, the more bran becomes a beacon for those powers, like a magnet, of sorts.

no we ain't got no room for bo-RING

("boring just aint where it's at!!!")

no we ain't got no room for bo-RING

for boring we ain't got no room!

[Tormund GiantsMANE]

but , nothing about Bran is physically enhanced...his body doesn't have any more ability than leaf,hodor,jojen or meera. Furthermore Hodor (damn near giant) would seem like the perfect physically able body to warg into since he's already been warged/broken and posseses uncommon strength and endurance.

[Blazfemur]

but , nothing about Bran is physically enhanced...his body doesn't have any more ability than leaf,hodor,jojen or meera. Furthermore Hodor (damn near giant) would seem like the perfect physically able body to warg into since he's already been warged/broken and posseses uncommon strength and endurance.

no i agree, physically, yes, hodor would be the most impressive vessel. but hodor is a simpleton, with zero warging abilities and nothing to enhance bloodraven's. while he would be able to walk out of there on his own it seems, it might be he would lack or suppress his power to accommidate hodor, whereas with bran, since bran is ao attuned to it all, he may be able to do more magically with

[Metopheles]

no i agree, physically, yes, hodor would be the most impressive vessel. but hodor is a simpleton, with zero warging abilities and nothing to enhance bloodraven's. while he would be able to walk out of there on his own it seems, it might be he would lack or suppress his power to accommidate hodor, whereas with bran, since bran is ao attuned to it all, he may be able to do more magically with

You think the body gives the abilities ? I think it is the mind, the "thing" that shifts into the other body. And I think Bran is quite dull compared to BR's abilities. Bran is just a boy who just learned a bit of it. BR can all the things Bran can and is able to do more. Bran is jut Luke, powerful and untrained, Bloodraven, on the other hand, is Yoda. Ancient, wise, master of these abilities. But exiled.(more or less)

[Blazfemur]

You think the body gives the abilities ? I think it is the mind, the "thing" that shifts into the other body. And I think Bran is quite dull compared to BR's abilities. Bran is just a boy who just learned a bit of it. BR can all the things Bran can and is able to do more. Bran is jut Luke, powerful and untrained, Bloodraven, on the other hand, is Yoda. Ancient, wise, master of these abilities. But exiled.(more or less)

i think the person gives the abilities, not the body. thats why hodor wouldnt benefit bloodraven much.

take for example your example. yes it's like luke, and yoda being imprisoned. would yoda possess, chubacca? or would he go for the one on his way up?

[Blazfemur]

that was beautiful and i cant think of a better analogy than what you just said, Metopheles. suited my idea perfectly.

[Metopheles]

i think the person gives the abilities, not the body. thats why hodor wouldnt benefit bloodraven much.

take for example your example. yes it's like luke, and yoda being imprisoned. would yoda possess, chubacca? or would he go for the one on his way up?

Well, it's Chewbacca,(nevermind :P) and he is not force sensitive, which would make using the force unable to Yoda.. (geek, me knows..)

No but (i don't know if in the sw universe it was ever done) if yoda could enter a mind.. well.. I mean.. Size doesn't matter in a force case.. "judge me by my size, do you?"

If we scratch that midicholorian nonsense from Liam Neeson in Episode I, then all beings that are force sensitive could become the same powerful.

So all that is needed is the knowledge how to use it. So all that matters is the mind, not the body.

Here the same. BR can shift from tree to person, so all that is really needed is his mind. Not a certain body.

If the theories are right, then Bran could shift from tree into Theon, so no tree that could warg needed. Only his own body or mind.

In the expanded universe from sw, Palpatine didn't really die. His spirit went into several clones and in other bodies too. He still had all his powers.

[Metopheles]

that was beautiful and i cant think of a better analogy than what you just said, Metopheles. suited my idea perfectly.

Thanks;)

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I'll be happy to put your finger on it. What? You had to know it was coming at some point.

Seriously though, I have been working on something involving this for awhile now and the one thing it comes to is Bloodraven does not need Brans body. Any body will do, it's the mind that matters for Wargs the body is just a vessel, even their own. Though something does not seem right in the cave, though I am not sure what it is, maybe Bran is the actual danger, or Hodor may snap while Bran is warging him. I get mixed signals from Bloodraven, something really isn't right there, but what it is I can't say or won't say really, as to what I think it is that is.

An Arya chapter really has me wondering about him. That scene at High Heart, I always got the feeling that the Ghost was not speaking to Arya, but to Bloodraven. I wonder if Bloodraven has not touched all the Stark children's minds. Grief never fit Arya all that well, she was much more about rage, but Bloodraven has grieved. Brining up Summerhall, the Bloodchild and Darkheart, I don't know that they fit all that well. I mean Arya had some bad things happen to her, but it's really no worse than a lot of people in Westeros, tons of death, people losing loved ones all over the place. It just felt to me as if she was speaking to something older and more deep seeded. Something that scared her, and hurt her, something she has known for awhile. Also the Ghost stays in a place where the weirwoods are blind, though the old gods linger.

Just the one finger, really? Is that because you're going nice and slow, or just being greedy? ;) :P :o :D

I suppose that it could just be the inner essence for warging that is necessary, and the whole Varmyr angle about a regular person not being a suitable warg was wrong. I'd guess that it's a theory many wargs don't get to test anyway. It's always been Varmyr's wolves I kept an eye on for this angle, not Bloodraven himself.

I'll give some thought to what you said about the Arya chapter, too. I appreciate the answers, I wish I had the time to contemplate all the answers, I hope to be able to get to it all soon. There really is something funny in that cave, I just haven't a sure guess on the whole thing, other than......Bran and company may have to get out of there by force. Bran may serve a good purpose at first, but in the endgame, I think Bran himself needs and deserves a real life of his own, not just as an all seeing tree.

Fingers, and HIGH FIVE!! Talk to ya soon, I hope.

ETA: Oh wait, your fingers or mine? LOL Either way can be........a-okay!!