The source of all Sansa-hate

[Florina Laufeyson]

She is highborn lady of course she never thought of it, because society raised her to not question those things. She lives in a classist society. Besides most of the noble people have this attitude. It is not something special in Sansa.

Yeah cuz leik Cat or Cersei never thought about anything right? :rolleyes: Its pretty funny how insufferable you can be.

Actually you just proved my point. The hatred for Sansa comes from a portion of her storyline. To ignore the progress actually means not to pay attention. She is not stupid which can be easily seen in her chapters. Part of having one character spread through 5 books is that the character in question changes, readers find out the new things and change the POV about them. If we don't change the POV in how we see certain characters due to progress they make over the course of the books, what's the point of reading pass page 1?

But Sansa begins the story as an idiot. So that guy isnt necessarily wrong is my point. :P It takes...a long time for it to really show that Sansa's not quite as dumb as she seems. And its really not obvious. :dunno:

[harry_dresden]

Honestly I kind of have to agree with Arya_Nym.

Sansa is merely a POLARIZING character. She isn't like Joffrey, Walder Frey or Janos Slynt where pretty much everyone hate/hated those guys.

What other character gets as much "analysis" on this board?

See the pawn topics.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

excuses excuses excuses

They don't work out.

Cersei actually did realize the bullshit, doesn't matter if Sansa doesn't have a Jaime equiv. around.

She only realizes how different they are treated after she dresses up as Jaime. She literally explains it to Sansa in one of her blackwater chapters.

Yeah cuz leik Cat or Cersei never thought about anything right? :rolleyes: Its pretty funny how insufferable you can be.

And how old was Catelyn when she figured out how "flawed" the system was? You seem to have unrealistic view how an eleven year old should behave. And there is no reason to attack me as I didn't do such thing.

[harry_dresden]

But Sansa begins the story as an idiot. So that guy isnt necessarily wrong is my point. :P It takes...a long time for it to really show that Sansa's not quite as dumb as she seems. And its really not obvious. :dunno:

Furthermore, one can still make the argument that she is still indeed, kind of an idiot.

"b-but Sansa figured Loras might have b-become an-a new Kingslayer!!"

Not really much of an accomplishment.

[Mladen]

But Sansa begins the story as an idiot. So that guy isnt necessarily wrong is my point. :P It takes...a long time for it to really show that Sansa's not quite as dumb as she seems. And its really not obvious. :dunno:

And Jon starts the story as whining bastard, Jaime as child killer, Tyrion as relatively kind man. The beginning is just one part of the story. There is a whole journey which has to be appreciated and assessed. Well, as for how much time someone needs to realize Sansa is not stupid or the obviousness of it, I admit, it varies...

What other character gets as much "analysis" on this board?

I am sorry, but why is the word analysis under apostrophes?

[Cloud]

You raise up very good points what the source of Sansa hate is, but I would like to add a couple things. One of the things that Sansa is disliked by readers is because normally when people read a book they do it because they want to escape reality and delve into another world. However Sansa is so hyper realistic and I have a feeling it frustrates people to read someone who is so.. normal. There is no magic in her narrative when most of the pov characters have magic to a certain degree in their narrative. Several people have said that Sansa was too passive in King's Landing and right now in the Vale when they don't realize that most people would have behaved like Sansa. To me it feels like a lot of people deny they were ever like Sansa or could ever be.

I agree with most of your post except for the bolded part (which was bs).

It seems to be that most people (including me) dislike/hate Sansa because we don't want to read about what's normal. We want characters who break typical conventions and tropes.

I'm pretty sure most people would behave like Sansa in her type of situation as you said, but nobody cares what "most" people would do. People want to read about a character doing what most people wouldn't do, and that's where the entertainment comes from.

You forget that people read this series to be entertained.

[Dicer]

However Sansa is so hyper realistic and I have a feeling it frustrates people to read someone who is so.. normal.

Sansa is hyper realistic and normal? That's a bit of an insult to 11 year old girly girls the world over. Sansa is GRRM's version of the cliche' 'dumb blonde'. I don't know any child of that age who would act as foolishly as she did. Can you imagine a child trusting the person, who killed their beloved pet, to do the right thing?

Even Sansa's sibling rivalry with Arya is extreme. It's no childish, ordinary sibling rivalry. After Joffrey tries to kill Arya, Sansa still loves Joffrey. I don't see any realistic teenager falling in love with a guy who cruelly cuts up another child's face or tries to kill their sibling. Maybe if that child is another sadist herself.

GRRM writes Arya as the clever, perceptive tomboy and Sansa as the silly, infatuated dumb teen. Reading Sansa's POV chapters in AGoT was painful. Ugh. She got slightly better in the next few books since she gave us an insight into the workings of KL and hopefully her character actually gets to use her brain and do something before the story ends.

[harry_dresden]

She only realizes how different they are treated after she dresses up as Jaime. She literally explains it to Sansa in one of her blackwater chapters.

excuses excuses excuses

It doesn't matter. She still was able to think things through.

Sansa didn't.

End of story.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

It amuses me that people write off Sansa as dumb when Arya contradict this in her first chapter in AGOT. She says she is an excellent student and better than most of their subjects with the exception of householding and horseriding at which Arya is better than her. She reads and writes better than all her brothers combined and yet somehow a lot of people write her off as dumb. Last time in the dictionary naivety is no synonym to stupid, dumb etc.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

There is a major difference between dislike and hatred.

I hate characters i don't find entertaining, because it wastes my time.

Most people who say "hate" just mean dislike anyways.

[Mladen]

It seems to be that most people (including me) dislike/hate Sansa because we don't want to read about what's normal. We want characters who break typical conventions and tropes.

OK, this also sounds a bit unreasonable... I mean, you don't want to read about what's normal. Great portion of human literature is written on ordinary people sometimes doing extraordinary things and sometimes being plainly human. Yes, you can entertain with anything, Twilight, some comic book movie adaptations or even 50 shades of grey. They all break some conventions... Sometimes, heroes are just humans and that is their greatest strength and special thing about them.

[cocoalover1956]

excuses excuses excuses

They don't work out.

Cersei actually did realize the bullshit, doesn't matter if Sansa doesn't have a Jaime equiv. around.

It hardly seems reasonable to expect Sansa to deconstruct the various social orders of her society by age eleven, even if someone else did. Some people realize what kind of world they live in early on, some don't until their adult years, some never do. But Sansa is learning.

[Florina Laufeyson]

And Jon starts the story as whining bastard, Jaime as child killer, Tyrion as relatively kind man. The beginning is just one part of the story. There is a whole journey which has to be appreciated and assessed. Well, as for how much time someone needs to realize Sansa is not stupid or the obviousness of it, I admit, it varies...

I am sorry, but why is the word analysis under apostrophes?

Dude, you know i have fondness for Sansa. I just know why people dont like her. Like, really know. Sansa is a really well written character and extremely subtle. That subtlety totally gets lost in translation for a lot of people. Its not as obvious as Jon becoming BAMF In Charge, or Arya becoming more cautious, Bran getting wiser, etc. Sansa's character development is easy to miss even if you are reading her chapters without skimming them.

She only realizes how different they are treated after she dresses up as Jaime. She literally explains it to Sansa in one of her blackwater chapters.

And how old was Catelyn when she figured out how "flawed" the system was? You seem to have unrealistic view how an eleven year old should behave. And there is no reason to attack me as I didn't do such thing.

No i dont. You obviously have never paid attention to any of my posts ever. Sorry, not sorry.

[Alaynsa Starne]

The argument that Sansa is stupid or spoiled because she doesn't question the classist society in which she lives doesn't hold water. Cersei didn't realize there was anything different between being a man and being a woman until she pretended to be Jaime. And had she not been a woman, had she been the one to be born male, she would never have questioned it at all. Cersei is on the side of the oppressed, therefore it is natural for her to question the system that oppresses her. Sansa didn't grow up oppressed because she was given everything a highborn girl is expected to receive. Had she been one of the smallfolk, she would have questioned the system. We see Gendry have issues with class, but not Arya because Arya has never had to bow and scrape and be treated as a lesser individual due to her birth.

[harry_dresden]

I'm not arguing she isn't stupid or spoiled because she didn't question things at a young(eleven) age, but The Sun of Dorne's argument is that highborn girls don't ever think things out.

We've seen this isn't true via Cersei.

[Mladen]

Dude, you know i have fondness for Sansa. I just know why people dont like her. Like, really know. Sansa is a really well written character and extremely subtle. That subtlety totally gets lost in translation for a lot of people. Its not as obvious as Jon becoming BAMF In Charge, or Arya becoming more cautious, Bran getting wiser, etc. Sansa's character development is easy to miss even if you are reading her chapters without skimming them.

Well, I can live with this reasoning... And I agree that most of Sansa's character is in nuances that are not just easily missed but sometimes even when focused difficult to understand.

[Cloud]

OK, this also sounds a bit unreasonable... I mean, you don't want to read about what's normal. Great portion of human literature is written on ordinary people sometimes doing extraordinary things and sometimes being plainly human.

Pretty much proves my point.

Sansa is normal. Sansa has always been normal. She has done nothing extraordinary or worth interest (in my humble opinion) which is why some would hate her.

People want to read "normal" people doing things outside of their comfort zone, which is what I meant by people getting entertained about things that aren't "normal".

Probably didn't explain myself properly.

[harry_dresden]

Pretty much proves my point.

Sansa is normal. Sansa has always been normal. She has done nothing extraordinary or worth interest (in my humble opinion) which is why some would hate her.

People want to read "normal" people doing things outside of their comfort zone, which is what I meant by people getting entertained about things that aren't "normal".

Probably didn't explain myself properly.

I think in a fantasy series, people don't want to read about normal.

You can bring up other literature if you want, but really, if you are reading actual literary novels its not as much of an issue. But in ASOIAF, where there are so many "badass" characters doing awesome things, I can see how it could be boring.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I'm not arguing she isn't stupid or spoiled because she didn't question things at a young(eleven) age, but The Sun of Dorne's argument is that highborn girls don't ever think things out.

We've seen this isn't true via Cersei.

No what I said was it's unfair to hold an eleven year old accountable to not question her society when most noble people don't care about the hierarchy nor do they question it because it benefits them.

[Mladen]

Pretty much proves my point.

Sansa is normal. Sansa has always been normal. She has done nothing extraordinary or worth interest (in my humble opinion) which is why some would hate her.

People want to read "normal" people doing things outside of their comfort zone, which is what I meant by people getting entertained about things that aren't "normal".

Probably didn't explain myself properly.

I am sorry, but Sansa's survival through the constant beatings and rape threats, her struggle to remain emotionally stable and psychologically sane when each of her family member is dropping dead, when she has been forcefully made to be part of enemy's family is actually quite the achievement. It isn't the heroism of Iron Man or Superman type, it isn't Antigone or Anna Karenina defying the norms, but it is a story about strength of human spirit and determination to survive. In my book, that is special... But, that's just me :)