The source of all Sansa-hate

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I am sorry, but Sansa's survival through the constant beatings and rape threats, her struggle to remain emotionally stable and psychologically sane when each of her family member is dropping dead, when she has been forcefully made to be part of enemy's family is actually quite the achievement. It isn't the heroism of Iron Man or Superman type, it isn't Antigone or Anna Karenina defying the norms, but it is a story about strength of human spirit and determination to survive. In my book, that is special... But, that's just me :)

Well said :D. Sansa does on the first glance seem very normal, but there is also something extraordinary to her. I would say that Sansa is a metanarrative ^_^

[Florina Laufeyson]

Well, I can live with this reasoning... And I agree that most of Sansa's character is in nuances that are not just easily missed but sometimes even when focused difficult to understand.

The one cool thing is that Sansa herself doesnt even seem to be aware that she is becoming more aware until like, her last chapter in Feast. She is the Sponge that has been absorbing information and wasnt even really aware of it. But when it dawns on her just how much ammo she has. Omg.

Pretty much proves my point.

Sansa is normal. Sansa has always been normal. She has done nothing extraordinary or worth interest (in my humble opinion) which is why some would hate her.

People want to read "normal" people doing things outside of their comfort zone, which is what I meant by people getting entertained about things that aren't "normal".

Probably didn't explain myself properly.

Sansa is definitely outside her comfort zone now. But i get what yer chirpin' about. Take a look at that one link in my sig doe. I think Sansa will do lots of things worth interest...The foreshadowing...it is there....Oh yes...

[Cloud]

I am sorry, but Sansa's survival through the constant beatings and rape threats, her struggle to remain emotionally stable and psychologically sane when each of her family member is dropping dead, when she has been forcefully made to be part of enemy's family is actually quite the achievement. It isn't the heroism of Iron Man or Superman type, it isn't Antigone or Anna Karenina defying the norms, but it is a story about strength of human spirit and determination to survive. In my book, that is special... But, that's just me :)

Fair enough, if that's your interpretation.

Just be understanding that not many people will interpret her story that way, or even see deep enough into it. And even if they do, they might not buy it - hence the hatred.

[Ambria]

I feel like if Sansa was living in modern times she'd be the type of girl that posts a ton of selfies of herself on facebook, and tweets about the new pair of $300 shoes that her rich boyfriend bought her because she's a spechul little princess

[Fey]

I understand where the hate comes from, but I wish most of the haters realized that pretty much everything she's done to make them hate her is from the first book alone - they seem to refuse that she's changed throughout the series and still judge her as though she's still the same person she was in first book ... or they don't realize how much she's changed, which is also understandable since her development is extremely subtle and she hasn't had that "turning point" or "special scene" that really shows how far she's come.

I hated her at first, too, but immediately began to sympathize with her because I think she's incredibly realistic. The fact that she's this "average" and "normal" girl with fantastical ideas about growing up and a very close "relationship" with the stories she hears and reads to the point where she's even willing to go to lengths to ensure her "vision" isn't shattered, which is true for many children who enjoy reading (I know I grew up similarly), isn't really something you see a lot in these darker, high fantasy stories that are typically filled with these extraordinary younger characters. So she almost felt like a breath of fresh air ... someone who I could ACTUALLY relate to, not someone who I secretly wish I was like and so bend my own perception of myself to think I can relate to them. :P

[Blazfemur]

Wow, let's all bash on Sansa again, eh?

I think Sansa's evolutionary curve is at it's medium, right now.

-She began a pretentious highborn condescending spoiled little brat, that always got her way. Agreed, I agree with that point.

-She was then humbled, at the height of her pretentiousness, when Lady was slaughtered and the real Joffrey was revealed.

-She then endured copious amounts of physical, mental and emotional trauma. Yet more humbling, and desecration of the "Lady" in her. This not only covers the slaughtering of her family, but her betrothals, forced marriage and kingsguard constantly beating her in joffrey's name.

-In later books, she experienced a medium-ground sense of affection, as she seemingly cant recall whether the Hound actually kissed her or not, and refers to him occassionally, hinting her missing him, but inevitably, to her he's lost as well.

-After she leaves, things look a bit better with Baelish. However, to me, while she's adapting with all her experience to lie and get herself out of certain situations, and adapt to other situations, she's still Baelish's pawn. She's still getting used for her birthright, though she appears to be adapting to knowing that you have to use your birth to get ahead.

One would argue, she's on her way back to her highborn luxaries. Especially if Baelish's plans thrive. Her arc is incredible, and I never would assume she's "stupid" and "dumb." If she gets to opportunity to rise to power, I wonder if the Stark in her will remain noble, or if her recent humbling, and Baelish's influence, will corrupt her and twist her into someone vengeful for her recent upbringing.

Hers is the political side of this story, and I'd love to see her and Hardyng rule at some point (though we both know Baelish would do the ruling and use their faces).

[Mladen]

The one cool thing is that Sansa herself doesnt even seem to be aware that she is becoming more aware until like, her last chapter in Feast. She is the Sponge that has been absorbing information and wasnt even really aware of it. But when it dawns on her just how much ammo she has. Omg.

Yeap, that is cool and in the same time so f***ing infuriatingly difficult to catch sometimes. She rarely just sit and consider how much she is evolved, but you can sense it with her each chapter. She doesn't reconsider how much she has changed in many aspects, but the text extremely subtly shows us that progress. Sometimes it is just by quiet acts of defiance, sometimes by quick glimpse of her understanding some situations. We see her thinking about how she growth and we see that herself hasn't fully understood some things that happened to her. And as you said, it is much easier to catch the progress Bran, Jon or Arya made when it's overwhelmingly laid out in their chapters and they acknowledge some things they learnt, than to see step by step progress Sansa herself sometimes doesn't give the credit for.

Fair enough, if that's your interpretation.

Just be understanding that not many people will interpret her story that way, or even see deep enough into it. And even if they do, they might not buy it - hence the hatred.

I understand that, that is why me and Florina discussed that "missing the evolution during the reading" aspect. Simply, we are not the same and we all cherish different things... I learnt long time ago that on this forum it is one of those brilliant things. Just as I am passionate about Sansa, I always enjoy to see people defending their favorite characters and showing me something I perhaps missed. And that's why I think people can learn so much here... It's all about brain trust :)

I feel like if Sansa was living in modern times she'd be the type of girl that posts a ton of selfies of herself on facebook, and tweets about the new pair of $300 shoes that her rich boyfriend bought her because she's a spechul little princess

I am sorry, but this is completely wrong... It would be even a stretch for AGOT Sansa, let alone AFFC Sansa.

[Blazfemur]

I understand where the hate comes from, but I wish most of the haters realized that pretty much everything she's done to make them hate her is from the first book alone - they seem to refuse that she's changed throughout the series and still judge her as though she's still the same person she was in first book ... or they don't realize how much she's changed, which is also understandable since her development is extremely subtle and she hasn't had that "turning point" or "special scene" that really shows how far she's come.

Now that's an idea I can get behind.

[Elaena Targaryen]

She is actually one of the more popular characters.

I think because she's not as popular as Arya there seems to be essays on here and elsewhere to defend her and why she needs to be liked and more popular. Your fave is not going to be everyone's fave.

As an example, just because many people say Arya is either a psychopath or sociopath who needs to die in ADoS doesn't mean that she's a hated character. She's one of the more popular characters.

Even Dany who I think does get the most amount of hate on these forums is actually still popular in the fandom especially with show viewers.

I think y'all must have missed this^ 'cause ARYa_Nym nailed it!

What would be refreshing is if the FANS could realistically discuss the true flaws of their Faves instead of taking it to the mattresses every time ;)

[cocoalover1956]

I feel like if Sansa was living in modern times she'd be the type of girl that posts a ton of selfies of herself on facebook, and tweets about the new pair of $300 shoes that her rich boyfriend bought her because she's a spechul little princess

Those are actions, not a personality. I tend to see as being more like the straight-A, student volunteer, parents-and-teachers-love-her kind of kid who tries too hard to be perfect.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Hers is the political side of this story, and I'd love to see her and Hardyng rule at some point (though we both know Baelish would do the ruling and use their faces).

I don't really see this happening. Not only because Sansa herself doesn't want to enter into another arranged marriage, but someone made a very clever comment that Harry Hardyng is literally a red herring. The sigil of the house Hardyng is a field of red and white diamonds and hardying = herring. So he literally is a "red herring" :D

[IRON BANK]

I always felt that Sansa was an interesting character. Especially when she became a hostage in KL and survived. Nothing is worse than a woman scorned and Sansa has a big grudge.

[Ramsay B.]

She started out as a typical highborn spoiled girl and has definitely grown but some people just don't care for her arc...it happens. There are a lot of interesting things going on lately with her but her chapters are definitely on the slower side. Sansa's defense team reminds me of Dany's attackers, people acting like your reading comprehension is bad if you don't like Sansa or don't hate Dany...such silliness.

[Blazfemur]

I don't really see this happening. Not only because Sansa herself doesn't want to enter into another arranged marriage, but someone made a very clever comment that Harry Hardyng is literally a red herring. The sigil of the house Hardyng is a field of red and white diamonds and hardying = herring. So he literally is a "red herring" :D

Oh now that's clever. Why can't i find information to confirm this. Granted I didn't know his sigil coming in here, but on AWOIAF all I see is a sigil of white and red checkers, and him being called "The Young Falcon," i dont see anything regarding fishes.

Can you show me where his sigil is an actual red herring? That would make me chuckle.

[Florina Laufeyson]

she is evolved, but you can sense it with her each chapter. She doesn't reconsider how much she has changed in many aspects, but the text extremely subtly shows us that progress. Sometimes it is just by quiet acts of defiance, sometimes by quick glimpse of her understanding some situations. We see her thinking about how she growth and we see that herself hasn't fully understood some things that happened to her. And as you said, it is much easier to catch the progress Bran, Jon or Arya made when it's overwhelmingly laid out in their chapters and they acknowledge some things they learnt, than to see step by step progress Sansa herself sometimes doesn't give the credit for.

This is something i struggle with regarding Sansa's character to be honest. Sansa rarely just sits back and thinks of junk. Shes very much in the moment. Thats all fine and dandy, but the rest of the cast tends to sit back at times and goes "Oh man, that one time totally sucked and i was such a moron." And its why i liked how the show had Sansa voice how clueless she was in that convo with Marg. Sansa does not self reflect much in the books. Its a little ~irritating~ to say the least. So in this narrative, we see lots of peeps discussing themselves in their own minds and thinking about junk. Sansa doesnt do this a lot and it makes her stick out like a sore thumb. Perhaps this is the reason why some people just dont realize she has grown as a person right away?

[Blazfemur]

P.S. One of my secret wants for the end is to see Baelish come to power, even if it's through Hardyng and Sansa, even if it's just Winterfell. It'd be a big middle finger to those who swear by daenerys, jon, and daenerys & jon together.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Oh now that's clever. Why can't i find information to confirm this. Granted I didn't know his sigil coming in here, but on AWOIAF all I see is a sigil of white and red checkers, and him being called "The Young Falcon," i dont see anything regarding fishes.

Can you show me where his sigil is an actual red herring? That would make me chuckle.

No his family's sigil isn't an actual red herring, but the main color of the sigil is red and his last name, Hardyng, sounds pretty similar to a herring. Hence why he literally is a "red herring".

[Blazfemur]

No his family's sigil isn't an actual red herring, but the main color of the sigil is red and his last name, Hardyng, sounds pretty similar to a herring. Hence why he literally is a "red herring".

oh, come on! you had me going, too! that i dont buy, i can understand if it was an anagram like when Mance uses Abel for a cover name and Abel=Bael the bard, but i cant buy that hardyng=herring.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

oh, come on! you had me going, too! that i dont buy, i can understand if it was an anagram like when Mance uses Abel for a cover name and Abel=Bael the bard, but i cant buy that hardyng=herring.

Fair enough, but I do still think Harry is a red herring literally or not ;).

[Mladen]

This is something i struggle with regarding Sansa's character to be honest. Sansa rarely just sits back and thinks of junk. Shes very much in the moment. Thats all fine and dandy, but the rest of the cast tends to sit back at times and goes "Oh man, that one time totally sucked and i was such a moron." And its why i liked how the show had Sansa voice how clueless she was in that convo with Marg. Sansa does not self reflect much in the books. Its a little ~irritating~ to say the least. So in this narrative, we see lots of peeps discussing themselves in their own minds and thinking about junk. Sansa doesnt do this a lot and it makes her stick out like a sore thumb. Perhaps this is the reason why some people just dont realize she has grown as a person right away?

Probably. But also can we hold that against her when every chapter of hers is some new battle, some new torment? Living in a moment, focusing on surviving that day is something, IMO, Sansa does rather often. She doesn't have time ti look behind and see the changes, of some of which she is aware of. Yes, also, she doesn't reflect how some of her actions hurt her and her family, but is she able to self-reflect while she is constantly being attacked on the grounds what her last name is. And I mean, her clinging to it finding strength in her surname, memories of her home and her family is perhaps the only way of living. Yes, it certainly does stick like sore thumb, but not because she hasn't progressed or because she hasn't realized some things but because she actually rarely does that. It's not like Arya and her death list, or Jon's lessons who are shaping him into something different, not even Bran's journey to Bloodraven, because Sansa is neither vocal nor expressive over some things. They happen, change her bit by bit and she is not realizing many of those changes... She does progresses only that she doesn't think about that progress very often.