Daenerys as a "Villain" Appreciation 2.0, with new take

[RoamingRonin]

Aegon, Stannis, Edmure, Doran, and Lysa never used smallfolk attacking methods.

Don't know what you mean by "small folk attacking methods". My question was: who hasn't played dirty or gone to extremes?

All of those people you listed are guilty of one or both.

[RoamingRonin]

I must say I have more respect for this stance than the one's trying to whitewash Daenerys and present her as some sort of savior figure.

Weren't you the one trying to justify Theon Turncloak'a actions in a thread not to long ago by calling him a prisoner of the people of Winterfell?

Please.

No one is trying to whitewash her. Just trying to slay the lie that she's all about burning and killing innocents.

[Wmarshal]

Don't know what you mean by "small folk attacking methods". My question was: who hasn't played dirty or gone to extremes?

All of those people you listed are guilty of one or both.

None of them went the extreme dany went to, which is mass murder of innocent people. The smallfolk attacking method is what Robb, Tywin, Tyrion, and Hoster used to spite lords unaffected by the assaults.

Edmure, Lysa, Doran, and Aegon never used such methods.

[Lord Reaver]

Weren't you the one trying to justify Theon Turncloak'a actions in a thread not to long ago by calling him a prisoner of the people of Winterfell?

Not quite. I was arguing against the people calling his actions a betrayal against the Starks.

There's a difference. I am sorry if you are too obtuse to notice.

[RoamingRonin]

None of them went the extreme dany went to, which is mass murder of innocent people. The smallfolk attacking method is what Robb, Tywin, Tyrion, and Hoster used to spite lords unaffected by the assaults.

Edmure, Lysa, Doran, and Aegon never used such methods.

Your claim that Dany killed innocent people is pure imagination until you can show proof. At the end of the day she killed a bunch of slavers that defied her. Good for her.

Now if you want to hold Lysa Arryn and Doran Martell up as paragons... I got some bad news.

Not quite. I was arguing against the people calling his actions a betrayal against the Starks.

There's a difference. I am sorry if you are too obtuse to notice.

And in your efforts you were whitewashing his behavior. Making him out to be a victim when in reality he was a selfish monster attacking innocent people that did him no harm.

Including the Starks.

[Wmarshal]

Your claim that Dany killed innocent people is pure imagination until you can show proof. At the end of the day she killed a bunch of slavers that defied her. Good for her.

Now if you want to hold Lysa Arryn and Doran Martell up as paragons... I got some bad news.

And in your efforts you were whitewashing his behavior. Making him out to be a victim when in reality he was a selfish monster attacking innocent people that did him no harm.

Including the Starks.

Every noble child in Astapor that looked over twelve was killed for the crimes of good masters. she did not even get her slavery was wrong idea until she was 15. Then she took a crap on any justifications she had that day when she didn't stop the butcher king from making unsullied out of the orphans she made.

Lysa and Doran never ordered mass murder of any kind, not against armless smallfolk or children.

[Lord Reaver]

And in your efforts you were whitewashing his behavior. Making him out to be a victim when in reality he was a selfish monster attacking innocent people that did him no harm.

Nonsense. He was a victim, I don't have to make him out to be anything.

He attacked the stronghold of a nation with which his own was a war, as a commander.

Next thing you're going to hold it against Robb Stark that he attacked the innocent people of the Crag, who did him no harm.

[LordStoneheart]

Nonsense. He was a victim, I don't have to make him out to be anything.

He attacked the stronghold of a nation with which his own was a war, as a commander.

Next thing you're going to hold it against Robb Stark that he attacked the innocent people of the Crag, who did him no harm.

You can appreciate Theon as the confirmed-villain he is all you want. That's perfectly fine. Just not here. (I realize you weren't the one to bring him up but this isn't the place to talk about all that.)

[Lord Reaver]

You can appreciate Theon as the confirmed-villain he is all you want. That's perfectly fine. Just not here. (I realize you weren't the one to bring him up but this isn't the place to talk about all that.)

Sure thing, consider the subject dropped on my part.

[RoamingRonin]

Every noble child in Astapor that looked over twelve was killed for the crimes of good masters. she did not even get her slavery was wrong idea until she was 15. Then she took a crap on any justifications she had that day when she didn't stop the butcher king from making unsullied out of the orphans she made.

Lysa and Doran never ordered mass murder of any kind, not against armless smallfolk or children.

For good reason. It's likely they'd follow in their parents footsteps or perhaps seek revenge. I personally care more about the slaves, the Unsullied and the babes they had to slaughter than I do about the slavers and their children.

It wasn't until she saw the brutality of Slaver's Bay that she decided to "cross the Trident" and fight the good fight against slavery. These people and their children have been living in it all their lives and don't seem intent on changing.

She could not leave Meereen because of her responsibilities there. It is said as much in book five. If she and her army left, she would have two Astapors on her hands. I don't see how this is a "crap justification". She cautioned Cleon about war with Yunkai and he proceeded to follow his own way.

[Lord Reaver]

For good reason. It's likely they'd follow in their parents footsteps or perhaps seek revenge.

Killing children for what they might grow up to be is not what I'd call "good" reason.

[Wmarshal]

For good reason. It's likely they'd follow in their parents footsteps or perhaps seek revenge. I personally care more about the slaves, the Unsullied and the babes they had to slaughter than I do about the slavers and their children.

It wasn't until she saw the brutality of Slaver's Bay that she decided to "cross the Trident" and fight the good fight against slavery. These people and their children have been living in it all their lives and don't seem intent on changing.

She could not leave Meereen because of her responsibilities there. It is said as much in book five. If she and her army left, she would have two Astapors on her hands. I don't see how this is a "crap justification". She cautioned Cleon about war with Yunkai and he proceeded to follow his own way.

I guess Rhaego had to die then...

She did not end slavery, she allowed people to sell themselves, forced labor, and allowed slavery everywhere but the city of Meeren, not its fiefdoms but the city itself. Cleon was making unsullied out of the ghiscari kids. By her beliefs she should have came in and kill him. She did not. they continued being tortured with no one to protect them. She is murderous hypocrite who turned a blind eye on them when she killed their fathers for the crimes of the good masters.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

For good reason. It's likely they'd follow in their parents footsteps or perhaps seek revenge.

Then Dany should die too....*cough* Mad King *cough*...Considering revenge to take back "her" throne is basically her end goal....

She's a horrible villain to those who don't like her, and a girl scout super hero to her fans.

Pretty simple. Both sides usually go to the extreme either way.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

And in your efforts you were whitewashing his behavior. Making him out to be a victim when in reality he was a selfish monster attacking innocent people that did him no harm.

Including the Starks.

And what do you think Dany will do when taking over Westeros.....? Kill many innocent people, by fire most likely, or using a bunch of former slaves as her shields.

So honorable!

[ghosts in winterfell]

So killing children is ok now if they're citizens of Slaver's Bay?

[NaarioDaharis]

1. Do you support Dany's conquest of Westeros?

I do. I do not know why anyone would want to live in Westeros, and I suppose Dany does not really know why she wants to go there either, but she is a good leader and cares about her people, which is what a terrible land like Westeros is crying out for in a leader.

2. Why or why not is it villainous?

This is a touchy topic, but her forced end of the slave trade is morally correct, but can be taken in a tyrannical overtone. She can't be taken as villainous for her desire to reclaim Westeros. Robert, Eddard, etc. are the real bad guys in this story. They really didn't have to usurp the throne. Aerys was the problem, not his family. I don't think anyone could have called Rhaegar a bad person save Robert who had a personal and misguided vendetta against him.

3. Are the noble families (not smallfolk) really worth your sympathy when they've already done what Dany's trying to do? (I don't include smallfolk because each faction has disregarded them as pawns, so they're all guilty of it)

The only faction I really believe is justified at the moment is House Martell. They seek to remove the true monsters from the land and possibly restore the Targaryen dynasty that lasted in Westeros for hundreds of years. I hope they succeed. So much wrong was done to them.

[Wmarshal]

So killing children is ok now if they're citizens of Slaver's Bay?

Hey, it is their fault for being born there, were Dany was forced in Qaarth to use slaves, because how rude would she have looked to do things herself? I swear, refuse a man's hand was bad, but refuse his slaves? It would have been to much for Dany. Those accursed ghiscari kids should have known what she realize at 15 by 13. They are orcs anyway and grow faster then we humans.

[El Guapo]

Yeah those poor poor Astapori. I can't tell you how many times I didn't cry after hearing how they got massacred.

[RoamingRonin]

I guess Rhaego had to die then...

She did not end slavery, she allowed people to sell themselves, forced labor, and allowed slavery everywhere but the city of Meeren, not its fiefdoms but the city itself. Cleon was making unsullied out of the ghiscari kids. By her beliefs she should have came in and kill him. She did not. they continued being tortured with no one to protect them.

Rhaego was an unborn child. Quite different than the tokar wearing slaver's children.

She did not end slavery, no. I think that might take a little bit more time. Dany had her hands full with Mereen. She cannot be in two places at once (or else she would be in Westeros and Essos). It's not as if the knowledge of the Butcher King doesn't bother her. It's the reason why she stays in Meereen in the first place.

Then Dany should die too....*cough* Mad King *cough*

Damn it. Stepped right into the cut.

And I don't consider her a girl scout. Superhero... maybe.

And what do you think Dany will do when taking over Westeros.....? Kill many innocent people, by fire most likely, or using a bunch of former slaves as her shields.

So honorable!

Vague.

Using slaves as shields or... her army as an army? You forget she hoped to lead the attack on Meereen herself but she was advised (rightly so) not to do so. She led the sack on Astapor and drew first blood.

If she plans to use Drogon in battle, she will have to ride him.

I think she will fight her enemies when she lands in Westeros. There will be casualties as there are in any war. But I don't think she's going to ride Drogon to burn down Riverrun and the people there just because. That's what I imagine when people say she's going to kill innocent people.

Even if you disagree with the 163 it's not as if she crucified them for no good reason. It's not as if she sacked Astapor for no good reason.

So when you say "she's going to kill innocents!"... I need more than that. A scenario. A justification. Something other than "because she burns stuff!" (when she really doesn't).

So killing children is ok now if they're citizens of Slaver's Bay?

I think her age rule was justified. I'll admit wording my argument poorly... though I never said killing children was OK if they were of Slaver's Bay.

Twelve years and older. Wearing a tokar. Considering the location, their station and, her intent... I think it was a fair call.

[LordStoneheart]

So killing children is ok now if they're citizens of Slaver's Bay?

What was this a response to?