Balon attacking the North

[Dany Girl]

Balon was stupid. End of story. No matter what anyone says he made decisions based on his pride that would not ever grant him what he wants.

Euron is not as stupid at least. He's attacking a fertile and rich land. A land that can lead to his goal of independence.

The IB have the right to fight for their independence in my opinion, but not just to return to the old ways, which is was Balon's goal. They do not have the right to invade, rape, pillage, and destroy others lands justs because they can. There's a big difference between doing so as an act of war (still not cool) and doing so as a way of life. If that's the way the IB want to go, then just like SB, I have no issue with their irradiation. If they want to be an independent kingdom that actually plays fair, trades, doesn't snatch up slaves, doesn't rape for the lolz of it, by all means I support that.

[Fat King Robert]

Balon was stupid. End of story. No matter what anyone says he made decisions based on his pride that would not ever grant him what he wants.

Euron is not as stupid at least. He's attacking a fertile and rich land. A land that can lead to his goal of independence.

The IB have the right to fight for their independence in my opinion, but not just to return to the old ways, which is was Balon's goal. They do not have the right to invade, rape, pillage, and destroy others lands justs because they can. There's a big difference between doing so as an act of war (still not cool) and doing so as a way of life. If that's the way the IB want to go, then just like SB, I have no issue with their irradiation. If they want to be an independent kingdom that actually plays fair, trades, doesn't snatch up slaves, doesn't rape for the lolz of it, by all means I support that.

Sigh. Two can play at that game. Balon wasn't stupid. End of Story. No matter what anyone says he made decisions based on his pride AND at the right time.

Euron is stupid though. He wants to conquer all of Westeros. Balon only wanted the north.

[Dany Girl]

Sigh. Two can play at that game. Balon wasn't stupid. End of Story. No matter what anyone says he made decisions based on his pride AND at the right time.

Euron is stupid though. He wants to conquer all of Westeros. Balon only wanted the north.

How is it not stupid to fight a country for independence that doesn't hold your fealty? That's just dumb. It's like California fighting Canada in order to become it's own country, illogical. Attacking the North while crowning himself accomplishd

nothing. If he hadn't crowned himself, it would be brilliant, but he did, therefore it was dumb.

[Lord Reaver]

Given that the Reach is probably at least ten times larger and many more times denser populated, the Iron Islands being able to field half what they can is pretty darn close.Fur

Further 40k men is higher than the military estimates for every single other kingdom, by quite a lot in fact. This despite the Iron Islands being far and away the smallest and poorest of them. Maybe there's something wrong with your estimate, maybe there's something wrong with Martin's numbers but common sense says that can't be right.

It's not all that hard, really. Euron has somewhere between 500-1000 ships in his fleet. That may or may not be with the Iron Fleet included.

An average of 50 men pr ship give 25-50k. Now that is rather low, as we know even Theon's ship has a crew of 100. The ships in the Iron fleet are all stated to be bigger than that.

If you want an absolute minimum, I'd say 30 men pr ship as average is starting to push into the ludicrous. With 500 ships, you end up with 15k men. On the other hand, with a ship average of 100 men and 1000 ships, you end up with 100k. So 40 seems a reasonable estimate, all variables taken into consideration.

And those numbers are Iron Fleet excluded, which is another 100 ships with something like 1.5-3k men.

The Reach's entire army, including it's navy, have left, that certainly includes the bulk of the forces that would normally have defended the Shield Islands.

It "certainly" does, eh ? Have any actual textual references for that ?

What's the point in crowning yourself if you're just going to take it off later? And that's assuming anyone let's him just take it off. After all, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice... won't get fooled again.

Because the future is uncertain. It wasn't certain by far that the outcome would be one king on the IT.

Balon isn't rebelling against Joffery, he's rebelling against the Throne. Since the Throne belongs to Renly (according to Renly), Balon is therefore rebelling against him.

Demonstrately not the logic used by people in the books. Did Stannis string up all those lords of the Reach and Stormlands who had followed Renly ? No. Curious...

[averde]

The Ironborn follow a simple principle, raid and take what you can and get outta there before anyone can come and actually fight back. Attack the Westerlands and you've attacked Tywin Lannister and one of the richest and most powerful houses who are a stones throw away from the Iron Islands or do you attack the North which is completely undefended with no way of ever threatening the iron islands (the northern navy is on the wrong side of westeros and besides that wouldn't have a chance against the iron fleet). It was just the ironborn way to attack the north.

[GallowsKnight]

Balon tried so hard and got so far. But in the end it didn't even matter.

[MyLittleFinger]

Balon tried so hard and got so far. But in the end it didn't even matter.

One thing, I don't know why,

It doesn't even matter how hard you try,

Daddy, why you don't love me,

Preferring my bitch sister and her hypocrisy,

Time is a valuable thing,

Watch it fly by as that horn blower sings,

Watch it count down as threatening a girl keeps them at bay,

The clock ticks life away

Trying to hold on but you didn't even know,

That I'm the Prince of Winterfell but only for show.

I wasted it all just to watch you go...off a bridge.

[Carter209]

Balon's plan was not thought out, IMO. He got nothing for attacking the Starks; no alliance from the Lannisters/Tyrells, no meaningful(read: fertile) lands, just pinecones and rocks, as Asha shows at the Kingsmoot. Had he allied with the Starks and Tullys, he has the opportunity to get the Westerlands for his family, and in doing so, get rid of Theon as his heir for Asha, who is, let's be honest, the true Greyjoy marriage prize in Balon's eyes.

With that in mind, here's what could have happened:

Robb sends Theon to Pyke, except the offer is changed in order for Theon to receive Casterly Rock and the rule of the Westerlands from Robb if Theon:

a. Renounces all claim to Pyke and the Iron Islands

b. Gets his father to join Robb's war effort

Now, I'm sure you all see me as crazy for thinking that Theon would renounce his claim on the Isles, but Theon was always more suited to rule a mainland region. Should Theon give up his claim to the Isles, it gives Balon the heir he wants (Asha) and a family member ruling the region closest to you (Theon). Seems like a win-win both personally for Balon and on a more geopolitical scale, as well.

Why should Theon agree to those terms? Well, for one he gets his own region, one a whole lot wealthier than either the North or Iron Islands, and two, by renouncing his claim peacefully, Robb Stark may just let him marry his sister once she is returned to him. The North/Riverlands are allies with the Greyjoys through a marriage(Theon/Sansa), and Balon gains himself a few powerful allies to cover his ass for joining in the effort. Not to mention that Theon would more than likely allow him to partake in some of the plunder from the West. Hell, maybe Victarion even gets his own seat, Lannisport perhaps?

So again, Balon chose the short fix over the long-term solution. The Tyrells, if the Starks/Tullys/Greyjoys become aligned may not be in such a hurry to go headlong with the Lannisters when Ironborn are actively pillaging and burning the West with Tywin unable to get back since he's protecting the capitol. Who knows if the Reach could be next? The Vale may even join with the two Kings, considering LF may start feeling his life expectancy is rapidly decreasing by staying with the Lannister regime. Tywin is pinned, either having to fight Robb and Edmure or Stannis without numerical superiority in either case.

As an aside, while I writing this up I got kind of sad, considering how fascinating it would have been to see the dynamics between a functional Greyjoy-Stark alliance. Especially when it came to the inevitable showdown against Stannis that would have happened when he becomes King after his victory on the Blackwater.

Sigh. Oh well.

[IRON BANK]

No, he was a complete idiot. He refused long-term self-rule for a chance at petty revenge and short-term opportunistic benefit. He doomed his people, long-term.

And his sons died in his own rebellion he chose to start. The Starks didn't kill them. Balon killed them with his first stupid decision.

The stupidity is in seeing the North as his enemies. They were offering him self-rule, when really all those islands deserve is to be eradicated. He'll find out (well, no he won't - he's dead - but the remaining islanders will) who the enemies are when the whole kingdom teams up to destroy or completely lock down those islands and their pirate inhabitants.

Exactly: The Starks offered hima crown and he threw it away. Now he resides at the bottom of the Ocean. His house seems to be on its way out.

[Fat King Robert]

How is it not stupid to fight a country for independence that doesn't hold your fealty? That's just dumb. It's like California fighting Canada in order to become it's own country, illogical. Attacking the North while crowning himself accomplishd

nothing. If he hadn't crowned himself, it would be brilliant, but he did, therefore it was dumb.

Because the north didn't have Tywin Lannister. Attacking the north would leave more options with the IT. The Lannisters and the IT were at the time Balon crowned himself fighting Robb Stark, Stannis Baratheon and Renly Baratheon. I know, many people argues that he should have attacked Lannisport etc, but what Balon wanted was a piece of the north. He also didn't have any real quarrel with the Lannisters.

It makes very much sense for us readers why Balon shouldn't have crowned himself. I agree, hadn't he crowned himself, he'd been in a much better situation. His plan about the north, however, wasn't bad. It could very well have worked. But he died before we could find out.

Saying that Balon was stupid, because of a stupid decision doesn't make him an unintelligent person (not saying that he was the brightest of them all) at all. Robb Stark made stupid decisions. Ned made stupid decisions. Tywin made stupid decisions. Stannis made stupid decisions. The same "rule" applies to them as well, that doesn't make them idiot and fools.

Exactly: The Starks offered him a crown and he threw it away. Now he resides at the bottom of the Ocean. His house seems to be on its way out.

He might be dead, but denying that crown isn't what got him killed. I'll ask again, what man will be respected if he is given a crown from someone else, who doesn't have the right to do that exactly.

Also, his house isn't dead. Vic is alive, Euron is alive, Damphair is alive, Ahsa is alive. And Theon.....well, let's not count him out just yet.

[Lord Reaver]

Balon was stupid. End of story.

Sorry, you don't get to decide that, however much you like.

No matter what anyone says he made decisions based on his pride that would not ever grant him what he wants.

Look, noone is saying that attacking the North was the optimal solution, based on reader knowledge and a clear, unbiased head.

Clearly, the option to join the North in rebellion is better from such a standpoint.

That is far from equaling Balon's plan or himself being "stupid". Balon's decisions weren't based on pride (as his letter to Tywin shows), it was based on hatred. Some may say misguided hatred, since his sons died in a war he started, though he surely has a right to hold a grudge toward the Starks for kidnapping his youngest son.

His plans, based on that ill-advised decision, however, were pretty much flawless. Much better than say Robb's plans after he decided to rebel and crown himself, which pretty much amounted to "go down south and kill stuff!". Sadly (or perhaps rather not, depending on your POV) Balon died by deus ex machina while his plans were barely starting to be carried out.

[Lee-Sensei]

Exactly: The Starks offered hima crown and he threw it away. Now he resides at the bottom of the Ocean. His house seems to be on its way out.

Actually, the Starks are out. Note that Euron isn't called Lord Euron. He's King Euron. The Iron Islands are still considering themselves independent while the other warring Kingdoms were defeated.

Also, while I think his plan was shortsighted I don't blame him for refusing. Robb's letter was pretty condescending.

What he should have done was either crown himself and work attack the Lannisters. If he still wants to attack the North, first become allies of the Lannisters in exchange for parts of the Riverlands and invade the North.

[The Frosted King]

What was King Euron's first order of business?

Do exactly what Robb advised, plus aim for dragons.

Promptly abandoned everything Balon worked for, because really, who wants to conquer the north on the cusp of winter?

Only for the south to retake it come spring?

It was stupid.

[Lee-Sensei]

What was King Euron's first order of business?

Do exactly what Robb advised, plus aim for dragons.

Promptly abandoned everything Balon worked for, because really, who wants to conquer the north on the cusp of winter?

Only for the south to retake it come spring?

It was stupid.

Robb didn't advise Balon.

[Lord Reaver]

Indeed. As for what Robb demanded of Balon in return for "giving" him the kingship, it certainly wasn't to attack the reach.

So, even giving the benefit of the doubt, that's just plain wrong.

[Cas Stark]

Indeed. As for what Robb demanded of Balon in return for "giving" him the kingship, it certainly wasn't to attack the reach.

So, even giving the benefit of the doubt, that's just plain wrong.

It still would have been a better strategy than attacking the North. And, his hatred of the Starks is wholly irrational, it was the realm he rebelled against, he wasn't a Stark bannerman, so if he's going to hate anyone for the death of his sons and destruction caused by his rebellion it should be the Baratheons, not the Starks and they did not "kidnap" Theon, they did their duty to the realm. Taking high born hostages is SOP, as we see Jamie doing it in the Riverlands, even Tyrion sends his niece to Dorne as a de facto hostage.

[Winnief]

One thing, I don't know why,

It doesn't even matter how hard you try,

Daddy, why you don't love me,

Preferring my bitch sister and her hypocrisy,

Time is a valuable thing,

Watch it fly by as that horn blower sings,

Watch it count down as threatening a girl keeps them at bay,

The clock ticks life away

Trying to hold on but you didn't even know,

That I'm the Prince of Winterfell but only for show.

I wasted it all just to watch you go...off a bridge.

LOL! That was pure gold!

[Lord Reaver]

Taking high born hostages is SOP, as we see Jamie doing it in the Riverlands, even Tyrion sends his niece to Dorne as a de facto hostage.

It being SOP or not is fairly irrelevant. I doubt those Riverlands lords like it any more than Balon did.

What Tyrion does (or attempts to do) is called brokering a deal and sealing it with a marriage pact. It's not the same thing, at all.

But, I already said Balon's hatred against the Starks for his two eldest sons don't make all that much sense, so I suppose we can at least agree to that.

[Cas Stark]

It being SOP or not is fairly irrelevant. I doubt those Riverlands lords like it any more than Balon did.

What Tyrion does (or attempts to do) is called brokering a deal and sealing it with a marriage pact. It's not the same thing, at all.

But, I already said Balon's hatred against the Starks for his two eldest sons don't make all that much sense, so I suppose we can at least agree to that.

It make sense on a personal level, since it was the Starks who killed his sons.

But, to let it influence such a major decision as to how/where/whom to ally with in your quest to restore the Iron Islands to independence is like Daenerys level bad/emotional clouded judgment. Especially since he clearly had already given Theon up for dead, planning to attack the North when he was still in Stark custody...which makes poor Theon's quest for approval all the more tragic.

[Lee-Sensei]

It make sense on a personal level, since it was the Starks who killed his sons.

But, to let it influence such a major decision as to how/where/whom to ally with in your quest to restore the Iron Islands to independence is like Daenerys level bad/emotional clouded judgment. Especially since he clearly had already given Theon up for dead, planning to attack the North when he was still in Stark custody...which makes poor Theon's quest for approval all the more tragic.

The Starks didn't kill his sons. One was killed by Jason Mallister. The other was killed when a tower came down at Pyke. Hating them for taking his son hostage and turning him might make sense though, but blaming them for his older sons' deaths is irrational.