Balon attacking the North

[MyLittleFinger]

I disagree, if the IB are raiding the Reach (like they are now, without any problems), while the North continues around the Westerlands, i can't see the Reach sending it's entire army to save KL. So who knows what really happens after that.

So Robb has convinced Balon to attack the Reach?! That is insane and asinine.

[Ser Few of the Fingers]

He could have at least waited a while for the Crown to ask him for help. The IT needed desperate help against Robb, and they were the ones most directly threatening the North. Once Tywin asked for Balon's help, Balon could have asked for much and more in return. But no, Balon is such a cool guy that he gave the gift of attacking Robb Stark for free.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

So Robb has convinced Balon to attack the Reach?! That is insane and asinine.

It's exactly what they are doing now, and succeeding.

Just because Euron has the balls and intelligence, and Balon didn't. It has nothing to do with Robb convincing anybody, he should have been smart enough, more plunder, more land...tougher? Hell yeah, but worth a lot more than the North.

[MyLittleFinger]

It's exactly what they are doing now, and succeeding.

Just because Euron has the balls and intelligence, and Balon didn't.

The Arbor fleet NOW is at Dragonstone, so no opposition at the Shields and minimal at Oldtown, at that point when Balon makes this plan the Arbor Fleet is at the Arbor so if you try to attack Oldtown they descend on the Longships and bust them to pieces. Euron is in an entirely different set of circumstances. This move would be in Clash not ADWD.

[Fat King Robert]

No, he was a complete idiot. He refused long-term self-rule for a chance at petty revenge and short-term opportunistic benefit. He doomed his people, long-term.

And his sons died in his own rebellion he chose to start. The Starks didn't kill them. Balon killed them with his first stupid decision.

The stupidity is in seeing the North as his enemies. They were offering him self-rule, when really all those islands deserve is to be eradicated. He'll find out (well, no he won't - he's dead - but the remaining islanders will) who the enemies are when the whole kingdom teams up to destroy or completely lock down those islands and their pirate inhabitants.

No, he wasn't a complete idiot. You cannot give another man a crown and name him King. Robb had no right to do that. And he didn't doom his people.

Balon didn't kill his own son, no.

The North ARE the enemy. At least for the ironborn. Would you rather attack a strong alliance (Lannister+Tyrell) or the weak North? If he had defeated the North (who was being regarded as traitors) he could always bend knee to Kings Landing later if he wanted.

Genocide, eh? On what facts do you base those on? Sounds pretty damn stupid to me.

[Winnief]

He could have at least waited a while for the Crown to ask him for help. The IT needed desperate help against Robb, and they were the ones most directly threatening the North. Once Tywin asked for Balon's help, Balon could have asked for much and more in return. But no, Balon is such a cool guy that he gave the gift of attacking Robb Stark for free.

THat was pretty much Tywin's response when he got Balon's offer in ASOS...

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

The Arbor fleet NOW is at Dragonstone, so no opposition at the Shields and minimal at Oldtown, at that point when Balon makes this plan the Arbor Fleet is at the Arbor so if you try to attack Oldtown they descend on the Longships and bust them to pieces. Euron is in an entirely different set of circumstances. This move would be in Clash not ADWD.

I still think it's the better move. Riskier? Of course, but what did they really get from the North? They made ennemies of everyone, including the crown.

At least this way they have a chance at something good.

[TheDoomOfValyria]

Never really thought about it. But Victorian or Euron being given rule over Pyke after the rebellion would have been interesting

[MasterJack]

It's exactly what they are doing now, and succeeding.

Just because Euron has the balls and intelligence, and Balon didn't. It has nothing to do with Robb convincing anybody, he should have been smart enough, more plunder, more land...tougher? Hell yeah, but worth a lot more than the North.

That would have been really dumb at that moment. All the realm was still very strong when Balon decided to attack the North. Euron's attack work now because half the fleet is destroyed at the blackwater bay and the rest is busy at dragonstone. And even so this is only a plan without future as long as a big part of the crown remain united. They will come to bite them in the asses later and they will not be any hostage taken this time. At the very least attacking the North was very safe with no possbile retaliation later since the North was very likely to loose. Seriously, crowning himself was the only big mistake he made.

I really think most of ppl hate against Balon attack the North is only because he didnt join the Starks.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

I really think most of ppl hate against Balon attack the North is only because he didnt join the Starks.

I don't really like the Starks, except Ned. lol

I just don't see the point in getting the north, although hindsight is unfair to use, considering we know they literally got nothing from it.

[Lord Reaver]

Genocide, eh? On what facts do you base those on? Sounds pretty damn stupid to me.

Genocide of the Ironborn is simply the favorite wet dream of the "honorable" and "just" greenlander-supporters. Par for the course, really.

Balon's mistake was not sending the letter to the Lannisters before actually attacking the North. That's about it.

[Winnief]

THen there's another scenario altogether....Balon learns his lesson from the last Rebellion and doesn't attack anybody, once Theon comes home, but lets the Iron Islands sit the whole fracas out, and deal with storing up supplies for winter.

[MyLittleFinger]

I still think it's the better move. Riskier? Of course, but what did they really get from the North? They made ennemies of everyone, including the crown.

At least this way they have a chance at something good.

It might have been I won't deny it. I was just trying to argue the often oversimplified idea that what he did was "moronic" and such, it really isn't in the circumstances. His death and all the IB pulling out of the North make it seem like a worse plan in hindsight, but nobody could plan that Euron would murder him with a faceless man and cause a "Civil Vote" where Asha and Victarion take 80% of their soldiers away (other than GRRM :pirate: )

[Good Guy Garlan]

No, he wasn't a complete idiot. You cannot give another man a crown and name him King. Robb had no right to do that. And he didn't doom his people.

Balon didn't kill his own son, no.

The North ARE the enemy. At least for the ironborn. Would you rather attack a strong alliance (Lannister+Tyrell) or the weak North? If he had defeated the North (who was being regarded as traitors) he could always bend knee to Kings Landing later if he wanted.

Genocide, eh? On what facts do you base those on? Sounds pretty damn stupid to me.

Thing is, the Lannisters were at that point at the top of everyone's shit lists. Robb, Renly, Stannis, they all were out to get them and the Lannisters had no allies to defend them.

The logical thing, from Balon's perspective, would have been to attack the Westerlands. That way, whoever wins in the long run, be it Robb, Stannis or Renly would have no problem with Balon keeping whatever he gets in the West. In fact, whoever gets the IT would have to thank him for fighting the Lannisters.

But for all his bluster, Balon was scared of Tywin, even when Tywin was losing. He practically admits as much. That was why he attacked the North, pure and simple

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

It might have been I won't deny it. I was just trying to argue the often oversimplified idea that what he did was "moronic" and such, it really isn't in the circumstances. His death and all the IB pulling out of the North make it seem like a worse plan in hindsight, but nobody could plan that Euron would murder him with a faceless man and cause a "Civil Vote" where Asha and Victarion take 80% of their soldiers away (other than GRRM :pirate: )

Yeah, i do think hindsight really changes my view on his plan, which is a bit unfair, i agree.

I guess i just think the high risk/high reward road is better, especially since the Lannisters don't like the IB anyways.

[Dany Girl]

Petty? What the.....he lost two sons to the Starks (well, one died at Seagard) and the only living son got shipped to WF as a hostage. The North and the Ironislands has always quarrelled with eachother. The North (atm) was very weak and poorly defended with Robb going south. Why not deal with your enemy directly? Why would you team up with your enemy, against your enemies enemy? So that it could weaken yourself, and make it more advantagous for the North to recover before another war? I think not.

Balon wasn't the brightest of all the kings out there, but he wasn't a complete idiot.

Yes, petty. Since he tried to rebel and Robert's forces kicked his ass and killed his sons. His issue should have been with the Baratheons, not Starks. Starks treated his remaining son well and Ned had no choice when he was made warden of Theon. His issues with the Starks is stupid and petty because his real issues should have been with the crown (Joffery) and possibly Stannis sense Stannis lead one of the defining attacks. Ned, even if he has issue with Ned, is dead. Robb was a baby at the rebellion and has treated Theon like a brother.

More importantly attacking the North does not get to grant the Islands independence. They should be fighting against the people who actually hold their independence, not people who make no difference. Allying with the North against the South gives them the best chance for long term independence.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

More importantly attacking the North does not get to grant the Islands independence. They should be fighting against the people who actually hold their independence, not people who make no difference. Allying with the North against the South gives them the best chance for long term independence.

That's pretty much my view on things too.

It was way more risky, but the only option where he truly becomes independent if they survive.

[Fat King Robert]

Seriously, crowning himself was the only big mistake he made.

I really think most of ppl hate against Balon attack the North is only because he didnt join the Starks.

Agreed. I'm not trying to idolise Balon, saying he was the best and smartest King the IB ever had, but he wasn't an idiot.

Genocide of the Ironborn is simply the favorite wet dream of the "honorable" and "just" greenlander-supporters. Par for the course, really.

Balon's mistake was not sending the letter to the Lannisters before actually attacking the North. That's about it.

The ironborn is the reason war, disease and taxes exists appearantly.

[MasterJack]

Another very strong argument. The Stark are weak. If the Stark beat you, they take hostages and leave. If Tywin beats you, he kills all your familly and even the bastard's babies, Sack your entire land and destroy your castles completely..

[Winnief]

Yes, petty. Since he tried to rebel and Robert's forces kicked his ass and killed his sons. His issue should have been with the Baratheons, not Starks. Starks treated his remaining son well and Ned had no choice when he was made warden of Theon. His issues with the Starks is stupid and petty because his real issues should have been with the crown (Joffery) and possibly Stannis sense Stannis lead one of the defining attacks. Ned, even if he has issue with Ned, is dead. Robb was a baby at the rebellion and has treated Theon like a brother.

More importantly attacking the North does not get to grant the Islands independence. They should be fighting against the people who actually hold their independence, not people who make no difference. Allying with the North against the South gives them the best chance for long term independence.

:cheers:

At the end of the day, if Balon wanted independence for the Iron Islands and the Old Way, then a showdown with the IT was inevitable. Again, even Theon saw that coming.