Balon attacking the North

[Jasta11]

That's why I said they were loosely based on them...

The Old Way is far from "alive and well". Euron Greyjoy is said to be the only person still living by it. Balon has it as an ideal. You taking that and making it something that all Ironborn live by falls on it's face when faced with the realities: The Ironborn can no longer reave in any large scale. Yet they still have things. Clearly they obtain these in other ways than taking it out of a dead person's hands.

It is in fact you who are victim blaming. Aegon the Conqueror subjugated the Iron Islands, took away significant lands and forbade their culture and a main source of income without replacing it with anything. Putting down Balon's rebellion was about continuing this subjugation, nothing else.

Of course the Ironborn yearn for the days of the Old Ways. Aegon reduced them to a miserable lifestyle with his cultural imperialism. Anyone would do the same if put in their position.

And your argument that, because the Norse did it, the Ironborn will do it (namely, stop reaving when the victims fight back) still completely fails.

Euron was elected on a platform of reaving and conquest. It's what they immediately set out to do, and any dissention in their fleet was actually because he's not really getting closer to the ''conquest'' part (IE the dragons aren't getting any more real by faffing around the Reach). Theon gets disdain from basically everyone, not just Balon, because he's wearing expensive clothes he bought. A lot of their economy is still worked by proto-slaves because doing it themselves is too much work. There is definitely a cultural affinity for reaving and ''taking what is theirs'', even if the Old Way is now impossible.

And are you sure you want to make me cry over the Ironborn no longer being able to attack anyone they wish willy-nilly because they can't be arsed to actually be productive? The Ironborn got their land by force, and lost it by force. They may not sow, but they still reap the wind of their actions. And it's not like they themselves do anything for the people they conquer in any way, unless you count thralls as helping people I suppose. What, was Aegon supposed to shower them in gold because they were special and the poor babies don't know any other way to generate riches than to take it from others?

And you haven't addressed the idiocy of Balon's strategy either.

[Lord Reaver]

And your argument that, because the Norse did it, the Ironborn will do it (namely, stop reaving when the victims fight back) still completely fails.

No, it doesn't. You haven't actually shown anything, all you have done is made false claims like this:

The Norse reaved for a relatively short amount of time, and mostly stopped as soon as they got good land.

Which is complete nonsense. 400 years is "relatively short" now ? We all know things have been stretched in time in Westeros, it stands to reason this sort of thing would as well. As for "Mostly stopped as they got good land" ? Where was the land the vikings got in Britain, that stopped them reaving there ? You can't seriously be referring to the Danelaw, which existed for a very brief period indeed. Where was the land they got in spain, the Baltic, perm, Finland, etc ?

Some vikings took land and settled, yes, like Rollo in Normandy or the Rus in what would later become Russia. That made those particular people stop reaving, but it did very little for changing the view of raiding as an added source of income and wealth. That came as result of the rest of Europe developing more stable and unified regimes that were capable of reliably repulsing the Vikings, leading to raiding not being a profitable venture.

[Lord Reaver]

And you haven't addressed the idiocy of Balon's strategy either.

No need. I can simply refute your unsupported assertment.

[MyaStoned]

Haha, that's hilarious. Let me spell it out for you: A nation is not a person. They don't operate by the same methods or according to the same rules at all. If that is too hard for you to grasp, I think you'd better stick to reading chldren's literature.

The issue aren't single pirates. Every region has those, it's not just the Ironborn. There's pirates off the stepstones, and there's pirates off the fingers. The issue here is full-scale reaving by an entire region. And that does not operate by the same rules as your average drug addicted felon. I'm sorry, but you're comparing apples with skyscrapers here.

Furthermore your comments show no familiarity with the actual historical reality of the cultures the Ironborn are (loosely) based on. The Norse stopped attacking their neighbours when it became more rewarding to instead trade with them AND it became too risky to simply attack them. Not a few raids simply ended with them being paid off with a sum. Eventually all the raids ended and they joined the rest of Europe in "normal" relations.

So what you're saying, oh learned student of history, oh master logician, oh genius, is that real life pirate cultures ceased being so for reasons that do not exist in the case of the fictional pirate culture under discussion.

They have little to trade and to a man they disdain work. You think such a people would cease raiding willingly because a few people fought back against them (that was your original assertion, remember)? The books say otherwise. The Ironborn are soundly beaten - and rebel. Are soundly beaten - and rebel. Endlessly. Nothing short of what you call genocide would eliminate them or their way of life. If that's unrealistic, don't tell me, tell GRRM. He's the one who's written them as incorrigibly, hopelessly, endlessly, happily piratical.

[MyLittleFinger]

No need. I can simply refute your unsupported assertment.

I don't think he gets that the plan was working perfectly before

1. Theon "Killed" the Stark boys

2. Well...you know, he fucking died and everybody left.

Robb's brilliant plan to run up the Moat and assault it by the Crannogmen and blah blah bullshit was plain bullshit. Victarion with his 5k+ reavers or whatever he had in the original assault on the Moat and occupation would have crushed them as did every army invading the North, as could such a huge number defend against any resistance group in the North (We know the numbers from what Stannis and Roose have scrounged from what remains...little). Theon goes to the Moat and there are 60 guys left, the only reason the IB plan looks retarded is because Balon died...and everybody abandoned it to play the Game of Thrones Pirate edition.

[Lord Reaver]

They have little to trade and to a man they disdain work.

Unsupported by the text. As such any argument based on these premises are null and void.

You think such a people would cease raiding willingly because a few people fought back against them (that was your original assertion, remember)? The books say otherwise. The Ironborn are soundly beaten - and rebel.

Being fought off does not equal being invaded and subjugated. The former happened to the Norse, not the latter. So, no, the books don't say otherwise. That is you reading into what's described in the books what you need in order to come to your already preconcieved conclusion.

[Lee-Sensei]

So what you're saying, oh learned student of history, oh master logician, oh genius, is that real life pirate cultures ceased being so for reasons that do not exist in the case of the fictional pirate culture under discussion.

They have little to trade and to a man they disdain work. You think such a people would cease raiding willingly because a few people fought back against them (that was your original assertion, remember)? The books say otherwise. The Ironborn are soundly beaten - and rebel. Are soundly beaten - and rebel. Endlessly. Nothing short of what you call genocide would eliminate them or their way of life. If that's unrealistic, don't tell me, tell GRRM. He's the one who's written them as incorrigibly, hopelessly, endlessly, happily piratical.

It's scary how many people advocate genocide. Also not all of them are bad.

[shearstone]

I don't think he gets that the plan was working perfectly before

1. Theon "Killed" the Stark boys

2. Well...you know, he fucking died and everybody left.

Robb's brilliant plan to run up the Moat and assault it by the Crannogmen and blah blah bullshit was plain bullshit. Victarion with his 5k+ reavers or whatever he had in the original assault on the Moat and occupation would have crushed them as did every army invading the North, as could such a huge number defend against any resistance group in the North (We know the numbers from what Stannis and Roose have scrounged from what remains...little). Theon goes to the Moat and there are 60 guys left, the only reason the IB plan looks retarded is because Balon died...and everybody abandoned it to play the Game of Thrones Pirate edition.

His plan wasn't to run up the moat like an idiot, it was to have the Crannogman attack the moat with their arrows like they were doing when Theon gets there whilst Howland Reed leads Robb and his army through the marshes of the neck around to the north where the Moat is vulnerable. It was an effective strategy. It probably would have worked as most of Robb's plans did.

Crowning himself or not, Balon never would have held the North so it was a stupid plan and only Theon's ambitious move on Winterfell gave it any chance of succeeding. If Theon had followed his fathers plan and stayed reaving the Stony Shore. Rodrik and Winterfell could have gathered the men from the North's eastern side (which is more populous) and driven out the IB without needing Robb at all. Once Winter comes travelling by sea will be very dangerous so there logistics will break down make it even easier and just look at how Asha copes with Winter compared to the Northman. It was a folly Balon should either have attacked the west or done nothing like during RR.

[MyaStoned]

It's scary how many people advocate genocide. Also not all of them are bad.

It's scary how many people on here don't know what genocide means.

Did the US, Europe, Israel et al commit (or attempt) genocide against the Nazis?

No. Because by the definition of genocide, that would have been impossible. Did they try to wipe Nazi culture and the Nazi belief system and way of life from the face of the planet? YES. They did, to the point that you still can't legally express or advocate many Nazi-ish things in Europe.

By the arguments of those here against wiping out Ironborn culture, what was done to the Nazis and Naziism was genocide, and a grave sin. Because that's all it was - a particular culture and way of life, not even a people. And the same is true of the Ironborn. Kill the leaders, kill the worst of the rest - as was done with the Nazis - and you'll be fine. The rest will willingly live normal acceptable lives as productive members of Westerosi society.

[MyaStoned]

Unsupported by the text. As such any argument based on these premises are null and void.

Being fought off does not equal being invaded and subjugated. The former happened to the Norse, not the latter. So, no, the books don't say otherwise. That is you reading into what's described in the books what you need in order to come to your already preconcieved conclusion.

Wait, so now you're advocating MY position? That they should be wiped out/locked down? Pick a side, man.

And I'd say the text obviously supports the notion that the Ironborn - at least the heads of houses on the islands, and their best warriors - disdain work and long for a return to the Old Way. Or are they all currently raping and pillaging around the globe at gunpoint?

[MyLittleFinger]

His plan wasn't to run up the moat like an idiot, it was to have the Crannogman attack the moat with their arrows like they were doing when Theon gets there whilst Howland Reed leads Robb and his army through the marshes of the neck around to the north where the Moat is vulnerable. It was an effective strategy. It probably would have worked as most of Robb's plans did.

Crowning himself or not, Balon never would have held the North so it was a stupid plan and only Theon's ambitious move on Winterfell gave it any chance of succeeding. If Theon had followed his fathers plan and stayed reaving the Stony Shore. Rodrik and Winterfell could have gathered the men from the North's eastern side (which is more populous) and driven out the IB without needing Robb at all. Once Winter comes travelling by sea will be very dangerous so there logistics will break down make it even easier and just look at how Asha copes with Winter compared to the Northman. It was a folly Balon should either have attacked the west or done nothing like during RR.

Look I don't really care at this point, but Robb himself says that his entire plan is based on Balon being dead and Theon being inconspicuously absent from worldly affairs whilst Euron sits on the Sea Stone Chair. Robb believes Victarion who holds the Moat with the majority of the Ironborn army/fleet will leave with as many captains and men as he can to oust Euron.

His entire plan is based on fighting weak ass leftovers with all those sweet stealthy moves, he needs all this intricate planning and pin point precision to beat a skeleton crew at best...why? Because you can't bring a 15,000k man army through narrow lagoons in the neck to sneak attack Moat Cailin, If Balon is still alive, Victarion would remain with the majority of their forces at the Neck and Robb could never get back unless he 1. Bent the knee to the IT and got their fleet to help him which is pretty much impossible or 2. Lysa agreed to let him go through the Vale to Gulltown and land at White Harbor and attack the IB from the North where they would have the numbers and position to take things back.

Rodrick barely gathered enough men to beat the Cleftjaw and his 100 warriors.

[Lord Reaver]

It's scary how many people on here don't know what genocide means.

Did the US, Europe, Israel et al commit (or attempt) genocide against the Nazis?

No. Because by the definition of genocide, that would have been impossible. Did they try to wipe Nazi culture and the Nazi belief system and way of life from the face of the planet? YES. They did, to the point that you still can't legally express or advocate many Nazi-ish things in Europe.

Normally, I don't respond once someone has taken it to Hitlerisms, but I'll play, just this once, just in case you have an epiphany or something. Hope is ever green, as they say.

Your analogy is flawed. If you wanted to use this particular analogy, the correct portrayal would be for Ironborn culture to be analogous to German culture, while Nazism would be analogous with the Old Way.

Clearly, then, you arguing for the destruction of Ironborn culture (not genocide, unless you also want all of them dead, which some posters around here do) is equal to you arguing for the destruction of the German culture. If the allies had attempted this, it would indeed have been a massive violation with unpredictable results.

[Lord Reaver]

Wait, so now you're advocating MY position? That they should be wiped out/locked down? Pick a side, man.

No. Whatever gave you that idea ? Again, wiping out the Ironborn is genocide, no matter how you try and twist it.

And I'd say the text obviously supports the notion that the Ironborn - at least the heads of houses on the islands, and their best warriors - disdain work and long for a return to the Old Way. Or are they all currently raping and pillaging around the globe at gunpoint?

They are following their elected King in war. Just like the northern lords followed Robb. I don't see why it's all nice and honorable for northerners to go to war for independence, but when the Ironborn do so, they're horrible people who disdain work.

[shearstone]

Look I don't really care at this point, but Robb himself says that his entire plan is based on Balon being dead and Theon being inconspicuously absent from worldly affairs whilst Euron sits on the Sea Stone Chair. Robb believes Victarion who holds the Moat with the majority of the Ironborn army/fleet will leave with as many captains and men as he can to oust Euron.

His entire plan is based on fighting weak ass leftovers with all those sweet stealthy moves, he needs all this intricate planning and pin point precision to beat a skeleton crew at best...why? Because you can't bring a 15,000k man army through narrow lagoons in the neck to sneak attack Moat Cailin, If Balon is still alive, Victarion would remain with the majority of their forces at the Neck and Robb could never get back unless he 1. Bent the knee to the IT and got their fleet to help him which is pretty much impossible or 2. Lysa agreed to let him go through the Vale to Gulltown and land at White Harbor and attack the IB from the North where they would have the numbers and position to take things back.

Rodrick barely gathered enough men to beat the Cleftjaw and his 100 warriors.

Obviously you dare care as you replied but nevermind. You're wrong by the way Robb only knew that Balon was dead and that Victarion and a lot of the captains (the leaders) would go with him to help press his claim and oust Euron he didn't know he'd pretty much all the men. He believed that Victarion would leave the best part of his garrison to hold the Moat. Even before we hear of Balon's death Catlyn asks Riobb his plans and he says North and smiles when she mentions taking the Moat so he had a plan in mind well before the Iron Fleet left. I might edit in the quotes later if your're not suitably convinced.

Your second point, he definitely would have preferred Lysa's help but as I said above he was already heading North way before we learn of Balon's fate.

Rodrik didn't know it was the Ironborn and just took what men he had to hand and when he got there Dagmer ran. It was only when Rodrik heard about Winterfell did he take the men back, leaving Torhens Square suitably undefended for Dagmer to take it. He then gathered over 2,000 men from nearby in a quick space of time to take it back and if it wasn't for Ramsay he would have managed it, the boys would have been found, there probably wouldn't have been a Red Wedding if The Stark's still had heirs and Winterfell making it alot easier for Robb.

[Lee-Sensei]

It's scary how many people on here don't know what genocide means.

Did the US, Europe, Israel et al commit (or attempt) genocide against the Nazis?

No. Because by the definition of genocide, that would have been impossible. Did they try to wipe Nazi culture and the Nazi belief system and way of life from the face of the planet? YES. They did, to the point that you still can't legally express or advocate many Nazi-ish things in Europe.

By the arguments of those here against wiping out Ironborn culture, what was done to the Nazis and Naziism was genocide, and a grave sin. Because that's all it was - a particular culture and way of life, not even a people. And the same is true of the Ironborn. Kill the leaders, kill the worst of the rest - as was done with the Nazis - and you'll be fine. The rest will willingly live normal acceptable lives as productive members of Westerosi society.

I don't even know what to say.

gen·o·cide (jĕn′ə-sīd′)

n.

The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.

So. Yes. Killing all of the Ironmen would be considered genocide.

Oh. And Godwin's Law? Really?

[The Marquis de Leech]

Genocide has a technical legal meaning, as per the Genocide Convention 1948. It involves:

any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group; (b ) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; © Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Not sure if the Ironborn count as a national, ethic or racial group, but you could make a case that destruction of the Ironborn would be destruction of a religious group (no others worship the Drowned God), thereby making it Genocide.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Anyway, as for the original question, Robb was doomed the moment he put the crown on. Joining the North would have doomed the Ironborn.

The smartest option would have been to attack the North, but not declare independence.

[Lord Reaver]

Not sure if the Ironborn count as a national, ethic or racial group

They are clearly an ethnic group, and they define themselves as a nation separate from the other 7k (it's a bit hard taking modern definitions of words into a "medieval" environment, particularly because the concept "nation" wasn't invented yet). So yes, by any definition of the word, killing all the Ironborn would be genocide.

[Barty]

Anyway, as for the original question, Robb was doomed the moment he put the crown on. Joining the North would have doomed the Ironborn.

The smartest option would have been to attack the North, but not declare independence.

Actually Robb was doomed the moment he added the Riverlands to his dominion.

Also I believe had the IB joined the North then together they could have won their independence(at least partly - there really is no way for the North to hold the riverlands forever against the south). No fall of WF, no marriage of Robb-Jeyne, no Bolton rebellion, no release of Jaime(all of which can be traced to the IB invasion of the North) and a further inflow of 20k men to Robb's cause(or against his enemies' cause) and suddenly Robb's position is very strong.

Though I agree that from the perspective of the IB the smartest option was what you said - too bad Balon was too dumb to see it.

[Sullen]

Obviously you dare care as you replied but nevermind. You're wrong by the way Robb only knew that Balon was dead and that Victarion and a lot of the captains (the leaders) would go with him to help press his claim and oust Euron he didn't know he'd pretty much all the men. He believed that Victarion would leave the best part of his garrison to hold the Moat. Even before we hear of Balon's death Catlyn asks Riobb his plans and he says North and smiles when she mentions taking the Moat so he had a plan in mind well before the Iron Fleet left. I might edit in the quotes later if your're not suitably convinced.

The fact that he wants to go North before Balon's death doesn't mean he had a plan to take it back yet, Balon dying and Vic leaving with most of his force (he takes the most part of his captains, who will need their crews to man their oars and back their words at the Moot) thus leaving the moat garrisoned by a laughably small amount of men is what Robb was basing his whole plan on.

A fully garrisoned castle would have been extremely costly, if not impossible, to take.

Rodrik didn't know it was the Ironborn and just took what men he had to hand and when he got there Dagmer ran. It was only when Rodrik heard about Winterfell did he take the men back, leaving Torhens Square suitably undefended for Dagmer to take it. He then gathered over 2,000 men from nearby in a quick space of time to take it back and if it wasn't for Ramsay he would have managed it, the boys would have been found, there probably wouldn't have been a Red Wedding if The Stark's still had heirs and Winterfell making it alot easier for Robb.

Rodrick did know it was the Ironborn, that was the point of using a well-known and feared reaver like Dagmer Cleftjaw. I think you're confusing Rodrick's retaking of Torrhen Square with the Hares's defensive manoeuvres along the Stony Shore, where they were effectively blind as to who was attacking them.