Cayrouse Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I rather feel ser Barristan over estimates the poor girl. But that is often the case with yes-men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I think that Barristan and Dany are perfect for each other. They are both cowards, inconsistent and turncloacks. I'm pretty sure Ser Barristan is considered one of the most noble men that ever lived for a reason. I don't get Ser Barristan hate, that's just jumping the shark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I'm pretty sure Ser Barristan is considered one of the most noble men that ever lived for a reason. I don't get Ser Barristan hate, that's just jumping the shark. I believe that every honorable man would have done the same thing; they would have turned the blind eye to rape and torture. Who wouldn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cayrouse Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 He's served five monarchs kings guard aren't supposed to outlive the kingsHe's noble but chooses poorly. Of the five kings he served one was a drunk lecher and two were more or less insane and another was Joffrey for however short a time. The poor man is brave and tries to be good and is undoubtedly an honest man he just has poor judgement and cannot be honest to those he serves thus denying them true service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I believe that every honorable man would have done the same thing; they would have turned the blind eye to rape and torture. Who wouldn't? I do agree that he's morally ambiguous, but coward? I guess I do hold against him serving on Robert's reign knowing he condoned the murder of the children, and the rape and murder of Elia, so I guess you're right about some things. But he's not that bad. Why so much hate for him? At least he seemed to feel the same as Ned about Elia and the Children, unlike others that try to justify their deaths on Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I do agree that he's morally ambiguous, but coward? I guess I do hold against him serving on Robert's reign knowing he condoned the murder of the children, and the rape and murder of Elia, so I guess you're right about some things. But he's not that bad. Why so much hate for him? At least he seemed to feel the same as Ned about Elia and the Children, unlike others that try to justify their deaths on Westeros. Yes it was cowardice, someone is brave not only when it's safe but most importantly when is dangerous. It’s easy to play safe and kidding yourself that you did what was right. But the real honor and bravery is when it’s not safe, when you have to put yourself on the line in order to help those who need help. Remember their oath: a touch on the right shoulder with the blade. "In the name of the Warrior I charge you to be brave." The sword moves from right shoulder to left. "In the name of the Father I charge you to be just." Right shoulder. "In the name of the Mother I charge you to defend the young and innocent." The left. "In the name of the Maid I charge you to protect all women... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingOfTheRock Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I thought this thread was to determine whether Barristan is underestimating Dany...not how honorable Barristan is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yomi Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I thought this thread was to determine whether Barristan is underestimating Dany...not how honorable Barristan is. Using threads to discuss the topic the OP wanted? What strange new ideas you have! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I do agree that he's morally ambiguous, but coward? I guess I do hold against him serving on Robert's reign knowing he condoned the murder of the children, and the rape and murder of Elia, so I guess you're right about some things. But he's not that bad. Why so much hate for him? At least he seemed to feel the same as Ned about Elia and the Children, unlike others that try to justify their deaths on Westeros. Moral coward, not physical coward. Very similar to Robert: Brave when facing somebody with a weapon, but runs from every moral decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Dany wants her suitor to be more attractive even if she knows she can't marry him. I honestly do not see the problem with this. Most people (especially if you were as attractive as Daenerys) would feel exactly the same. When you are limiting yourself to between 5 and 15 families that can have sons beggars can't be choosers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I do agree that he's morally ambiguous, but coward? I guess I do hold against him serving on Robert's reign knowing he condoned the murder of the children, and the rape and murder of Elia, so I guess you're right about some things. But he's not that bad. Why so much hate for him? At least he seemed to feel the same as Ned about Elia and the Children, unlike others that try to justify their deaths on Westeros. As BBE says, he's a moral coward. Ser Barry is brave in battle but a coward outside it. He hides behind his vows and makes claims on what he would have done "if". As to Barristan's assessments of Dany, I think he's doing a fair amount of projecting when it comes to Quentyn, which supports the idea that Ashara was involved with Brandon and not Ned. Barry believes he is the mud that never stood a chance against fire (Brandon). I don't give Barristan much credence when it comes to Dany and men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I wouldn't call Barristan a moral coward. He speaks out against the proposed assassination of Daenerys. He refuses to let the Shavepate murder Hizdahr, insisting he be kept alive for trial.He's conflicted between his various oaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Kraken Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Dany makes horrible decisions, mainly because she never learned how to rule. She thinks she is doing what is best based off emotion, when in reality they are poor decisions. Example: marrying the slave master, staying in Mereen, Locking up here dragons.. endless. She needs to leave slaver's bay, perhaps in TWoW someone will talk some sense into her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Dany makes horrible decisions, mainly because she never learned how to rule. She thinks she is doing what is best based off emotion, when in reality they are poor decisions. Example: marrying the slave master, staying in Mereen, Locking up here dragons.. endless. She needs to leave slaver's bay, perhaps in TWoW someone will talk some sense into her. I think you're simply labeling any decision you disagree with (or that turns out in retrospect to have bad consequences) as 'based off emotion'. There's no sensible way to say that her decision to marry Hizdahr is 'based off emotion' as opposed to based on reason. Her decision to lock up her dragons is anything but emotional: emotionally, she wants them to be free. This is, unfortunately, a common trope by which female characters' decisions are written off. What in a man would be a forgivable mistake, in a woman is all to often a 'horrible decision based off emotion'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Barristan seems to think that had Quentyn been a more handsome young man, Dany might have agreed to marry him and go to Westeros.Dany rejected Quentyn not because he was ugly to look at, but because it would mean she would have to abandon her people. Barristan is not wrong; he is at least partially right. Yes, it is partly her choosing to prioritize the here-and-now needs of Meereen over the distant dream of Westeros, and honouring her word already given, but Ser Grandfather is also right about her emotional decision making. Dany is willing to risk her queenly reputation (and impending Meereenese marriage) for a gutter rat like Daario, but not for Prince Quentyn and Dorne (who are also "her people" back in Westeros). Quentyn was doomed by being too late and also being mud, not fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I think you're simply labeling any decision you disagree with (or that turns out in retrospect to have bad consequences) as 'based off emotion'. There's no sensible way to say that her decision to marry Hizdahr is 'based off emotion' as opposed to based on reason. Her decision to lock up her dragons is anything but emotional: emotionally, she wants them to be free.This is, unfortunately, a common trope by which female characters' decisions are written off. What in a man would be a forgivable mistake, in a woman is all to often a 'horrible decision based off emotion'.Yeah, I find that very annoying. Especially in a series chock full of male characters making terrible decisions for emotional reasons yet not getting nowhere near as much bashing for that as the women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Barristan underestimate Dany? Yes. I think we all underestimate Dany. And Barristan's morals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RK Rajagopal Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 Barristan is not wrong; he is at least partially right. Yes, it is partly her choosing to prioritize the here-and-now needs of Meereen over the distant dream of Westeros, and honouring her word already given, but Ser Grandfather is also right about her emotional decision making. Dany is willing to risk her queenly reputation (and impending Meereenese marriage) for a gutter rat like Daario, but not for Prince Quentyn and Dorne (who are also "her people" back in Westeros). Quentyn was doomed by being too late and also being mud, not fire. Dany was essentially using Daario as a concubine. It would be a gross disrespect to Quentyn if she even suggested that - it was never an option for her. Even if Quentyn had been handsome, he would still have been rejected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RK Rajagopal Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 I wouldn't call Barristan a moral coward. He speaks out against the proposed assassination of Daenerys. He refuses to let the Shavepate murder Hizdahr, insisting he be kept alive for trial.He's conflicted between his various oaths. Agreed. It;'s the Jaime Lannister situation all over again. Obey your King vs. Knightly oaths. Barristan underestimate Dany?Yes.I think we all underestimate Dany.And Barristan's morals. ^Sarcasm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I have always said that Dany was justified rejecting Quentyn both from an ethical and from a practical point of view. From an ethical point of view, following him meant leaving behind all her followers who had bled for her. Unacceptable. From a practical point of view, following him meant leaving behind all her power base, her armies, wealth, resources and land, and becoming a beggar again, completely at the mercy of Doran, who could do with her as he wished. He's a guy who hasn't moved a finger to help her for years...why should Dany trust him with her life?.She had dragons, but those were small and untrained, useless as weapons, and she may be unable even to take them to Dorne, since she couldn't ride them and they were too wild to be transported by ship (they would burn the vessel).Even if she could take her dragons to Dorne, it was a gamble to expect that their mere existance would inspire the Westerosi enough so that a sizeable portion of the nobility and knighthood or Westeros would side with her. And if that didn't happen...would Doran still protect her? or would he sell her to her enemies?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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