Is Sansa going to be placed in deeper (no pun intended!) sexual situations in the latter books?

[Woman of War]

Look, the relationship is not merely emotionally abusive, it's coercive. If you see a guy murdering people right in front of you, your ability to deny that person something diminishes to nothing. You instinctively grasp that such a denial is probably actual, literal suicide. Any sexual contact initiated with the threat of bodily harm or death present is non-consensual. So your original argument that Sansa will be having consensual sex with LF is dead on arrival.

I do not think that Sansa feels threatened physically by Baelish. She should objectively, not because he would rape her, that is not his style, but because he may simply need to get rid of her at some point. But she does not see the threat despite Dontos ans Lysa. She has already started to identify "Father and I have...", and so any instinct for danger has been numbed - for now. Sansa feels taken seriously by that clever manipulator. There finally is someone who believes that she is capable of grasping clever plots, the ultimate seduction: she is a partner worthy of confidence. Sex would only be a byproduct.

[juanml82]

This is a strawman. I said it's normal and healthy to not want to read about someone getting raped. Said nothing about anyone being abnormal. The fact that the character in question is so young and defenseless at the moment makes it even harder to bear, and it's understandably upsetting to me and others. Wanting to read about Sansa getting raped because "it's ok she's not real" is stupid. Enjoying a chapter with this in it is different from WANTING and HOPING for it to happen. It's understandable that people don't want this, writing their concerns off because "lulz teh characters are not real" is nonsense.

As for bdsm and bestiality I have no idea what the fuck your point is there. What does not wanting Sansa to get raped have to do with that?

Also getting down and dirty=sex. Your feigned outrage over the term is hilarious though.

Well, I don't see the strawman in my post. If not wanting to read about rape it's normal, then it stands to reason that wanting to read about rape it's not. And there are entire subgenres in erotic fiction about that, or worse. Normal people we cross in the street every day might enjoy reading about them. That doesn't make them rapists, nor rape apologists in real life.

And there is no "feigned outrage". I'm not a native English speaker, which doesn't mean I can't pull definitions by context or by a quick google search. "Down" and "Dirty" are two words with negative connotations, which are used to describe a delightful and we can even say beautiful act.

Because BDSM is just like bestiality, cannibalism and rape, right? :rolleyes:

Well, ok, you have a point.

I do not think that Sansa feels threatened physically by Baelish. She should objectively, not because he would rape her, that is not his style, but because he may simply need to get rid of her at some point. But she does not see the threat despite Dontos ans Lysa. She has already started to identify "Father and I have...", and so any instinct for danger has been numbed - for now. Sansa feels taken seriously by that clever manipulator. There finally is someone who believes that she is capable of grasping clever plots, the ultimate seduction: she is a partner worthy of confidence. Sex would only be a byproduct.

True, Sansa doesn't feel threatened by Baelish. I'm not sure he can manipulate her like an uncle or stepfather abusing a young teenager and using guilt to keep her quiet. Littlefinger has a huge leverage on her. But Sansa also has a certain leverage on him, as well as a hairnet full of poison. They are partners in crime by now. What we don't know if is Sansa realizes that. After all, a modern young teenager abused by a relative has leverage on that relative but more often than not, they don't realize that.

Those aren't the buttons LF is pushing so far, though. Unfortunately, what passed for sex ed in Catelyn Stark's home can be summarized in "be dutiful to your husband". So we have this

“I’d sooner break my fast with a kiss.”

A true daughter would not refuse her sire a kiss, so Alayne went to him and kissed him, a quick dry peck upon the cheek, and just as quickly stepped away.

“How... dutiful.” Littlefinger smiled with his mouth, but not his eyes.

The hour was closer to dawn than to dusk, and most of the castle was asleep, but not Petyr Baelish. Alayne found him seated by a crackling fire, drinking hot mulled wine with three men she did not know. They all rose when she entered, and Petyr smiled warmly. “Alayne. Come, give your father a kiss.”

She hugged him dutifully and kissed him on the cheek. “I am sorry to intrude, Father. No one told me you had company.”

“You are never an intrusion, sweetling. I was just now telling these good knights what a dutiful daughter I had.”

“I would never have known it from the kiss you gave me.” He pulled her closer, caught her face between his hands, and kissed her on the lips for a long time. “Now that’s the sort of kiss that says welcome home. See that you do better next time.”

“Yes, Father.” She could feel herself blushing.

He did not hold her kiss against her

So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa... Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That’s worth another kiss now, don’t you think?”

Now pardon me, I need to go to throw up

[E-Ro]

Look, the relationship is not merely emotionally abusive, it's coercive. If you see a guy murdering people right in front of you, your ability to deny that person something diminishes to nothing. You instinctively grasp that such a denial is probably actual, literal suicide. Any sexual contact initiated with the threat of bodily harm or death present is non-consensual. So your original argument that Sansa will be having consensual sex with LF is dead on arrival.

Yeah, and considering all this you'll have to forgive me if i get upset over posts that say sansa will sleep with bealish and it might even be a positive physical experience for her.(this sort of thing is a very real issue in the real world, victims of kidnapping cant consent to sex with whoever kidnapped them)

Well, I don't see the strawman in my post. If not wanting to read about rape it's normal, then it stands to reason that wanting to read about rape it's not. And there are entire subgenres in erotic fiction about that, or worse. Normal people we cross in the street every day might enjoy reading about them. That doesn't make them rapists, nor rape apologists in real life.

And there is no "feigned outrage". I'm not a native English speaker, which doesn't mean I can't pull definitions by context or by a quick google search. "Down" and "Dirty" are two words with negative connotations, which are used to describe a delightful and we can even say beautiful act.

Strawman in so much as you claiming my stance is aimed at people that enjoy bdsm and other, uhh, things. I stated that WANTING sansa to get raped and then going on about how shes not real so its ok is wrong and stupid, because it is. I made no claims on bdsm(which is between consenting adults) at all. So yeah. Enjoy all the erotic fiction you want in your free time, asoiaf is not erotic fiction or some bdsm novel, I would rather not sit down and read about a 14 year old character that I have grown emotionally invested in get raped. Thats all.

[KingOfTheRock]

Well, I don't see the strawman in my post. If not wanting to read about rape it's normal, then it stands to reason that wanting to read about rape it's not. And there are entire subgenres in erotic fiction about that, or worse. Normal people we cross in the street every day might enjoy reading about them. That doesn't make them rapists, nor rape apologists in real life.

And there is no "feigned outrage". I'm not a native English speaker, which doesn't mean I can't pull definitions by context or by a quick google search. "Down" and "Dirty" are two words with negative connotations, which are used to describe a delightful and we can even say beautiful act.

Well, ok, you have a point.

True, Sansa doesn't feel threatened by Baelish. I'm not sure he can manipulate her like an uncle or stepfather abusing a young teenager and using guilt to keep her quiet. Littlefinger has a huge leverage on her. But Sansa also has a certain leverage on him, as well as a hairnet full of poison. They are partners in crime by now. What we don't know if is Sansa realizes that. After all, a modern young teenager abused by a relative has leverage on that relative but more often than not, they don't realize that.

Those aren't the buttons LF is pushing so far, though. Unfortunately, what passed for sex ed in Catelyn Stark's home can be summarized in "be dutiful to your husband". So we have this

Now pardon me, I need to go to throw up

Its gotten to the point with her storyline that I now hate the word dutiful.

[Mladen]

Enjoy all the erotic fiction you want in your free time, asoiaf is not erotic fiction or some bdsm novel, I would rather not sit down and read about a 14 year old character that I have grown emotionally invested in get raped. Thats all.

Thank you very much E-Ro. Between idiocies about "positive physical experience with LF" and "Sansa story needs to contain at least one rape for not to be yawn" I find this thread repulsive and truly disgusting... So, thank you for some reason...

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Thank you very much E-Ro. Between idiocies about "positive physical experience with LF" and "Sansa story needs to contain at least one rape for not to be yawn" I find this thread repulsive and truly disgusting... So, thank you for some reason...

Agreed. I find the idea that a female character has to be raped so she gets more "character development" and "compelling" incredibly disturbing.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Agreed. I find the idea that a female character has to be raped so she gets more "character development" and "compelling" incredibly disturbing.

It saddens me it even needs to be said.

[KingOfTheRock]

Agreed. I find the idea that a female character has to be raped so she gets more "character development" and "compelling" incredibly disturbing.

It basically shows that future rapists might be reading these books. Since they derive interest from having a character raped. Either that or they're sadists.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

As someone who really enjoys erotic fiction that involves submission or domination, I have to say that erotic fiction doesn't involve a 14 years old being raped by some creepy Lord twatbeard.

Eww.

[E-Ro]

As someone who really enjoys erotic fiction that involves submission or domination, I have to say that erotic fiction doesn't involve a 14 years old being raped by some creepy Lord twatbeard.

Eww.

:agree: I definitely agree with this. I also think Its important to separate CONSENSUAL ROLE PLAY, from rape.

[John Hulboy]

Glad you dealt with that..I didn't even want to open thread but I knew someone would stepnup.

[OldGimletEye]

Thank you very much E-Ro. Between idiocies about "positive physical experience with LF" and "Sansa story needs to contain at least one rape for not to be yawn" I find this thread repulsive and truly disgusting... So, thank you for some reason...

Yeah, put me down as one of those who will gripe at the idea of Sansa being seduced by LF because it would be "great plot development" or "great character development" or whatever.

[juanml82]

As someone who really enjoys erotic fiction that involves submission or domination, I have to say that erotic fiction doesn't involve a 14 years old being raped by some creepy Lord twatbeard.

Eww.

You mean like Daennerys Targaryen?

[KingOfTheRock]

You mean like Daennerys Targaryen?

Have to agree, people do not seem to remember the girl raped at the age of 13..

[Mad Monkey]

Classic Stockholm Syndrome. Doesn't really put a positive light on Sansa/LF.

[The Mother of The Others]

As for bdsm and bestiality I have no idea what the F-Word your point is there.

Was it a reference to The Bear and the Maiden Fair? Sure, that song suggests one possible option. It's important to stress that no one is saying Sansa should choose this path, though. Nobody's saying that. The fact that a prominent song in Westeros points the way to that lifestyle choice is in no way relevant to this discussion. It's neither here nor there, the Bear & Maiden Fair. I feel confident Sansa's love life will not go in that direction. She may be a lost babe in the wilderness who found a hidey hole to winter in where she kept safe from the cold and snow by cozying up with the dormant predator who dwells there, a shadowy potential giant amongst men who starts pawing at her listlessly from time to time. Okay, so her life already parallels The Bear and Maiden Fair with Petyr cast as the bear----but this should come as a relief to us because it strongly suggests that actual beastiality will now no longer be necessary! Sansa has already scratched that off her list by lipsmacking her Petey Bear.

It saddens me it even needs to be said.

None of this needs to be said, that's the beauty of it. These topics are like finger exercises on the piano with their rising and falling notes of scandal and outrage. LF is still pressing our buttons like he does to everyone in-world, getting us to react in predictable ways that distract us while he absconds with the prize, be it titles or IOU's or castles or Sansa. Are you aware that everyone just came out against rape, for example? An important team building exercise. It's possible the turbulence we're encountering is what happens when 10,000 people jostle to bring Sansa under their protective umbrellas. We know how crazy it can get when just two parents try to claim custody of a twirp in court, and now Sansa has a herd of online mothers (and a gaggle of dads) trying to replace LF by copying him---we all want to pull Sansa out of the sea of tears like he did before she drowns in the salty Blackwater by way of swallowing too much LF saliva. (Except for those who are rooting for a pirate & pervert victory!) But we can't do this; We can't pick her out of the river and lift her onto our raft because no matter how we try we can't reach into the text and affect it via these shows of protectiveness. I believe that's what people are saying with their reminders of how it's just a character, not a person that we should actually be moving to protect from further slings and arrows like those Africa babies with the flies around their heads who need someone's help. So it amounts to being tricked into feeling motherly instincts for a collection of words and letters, doesn't it? Which is a fine testament to the writer's.... aplomb? (if that means skill). And it's a fine passtime for fans, as long as we don't let it get us into needless fights.

Woman of War please take stock of how the things you're continually suggesting for this plotline are continually causing a ruckus. If this is the predictable outcome and no converts are really being won but only more people alienated, and if you're already known for the opinions you voice (which means you've been heard), then why continue with similar repetitions? Is the truth in the user name and it's as simple as that? If you're all about War, then haven't you had one by now? Doesn't the natural cycle of wars include alternating eras of Peace during which other aspects of the books could be explored without having to wear riot gear? I mean, sure, if Sansa developed a taste for LF's saliva that'd be a victory for pervs everywhere, but is it worth it to keep mentioning such an Immaculate Seduction on here when doing so only causes ulcers? The burning indignation from this chatboard has got to be at least 3 times as hot as any father/daughter heat generated by the in-book characters. Again, to reiterate, taking advantage of a young confused runaway is sort of hot, but the outrage over this notion is as hot as burning magma. So why stroll into the volcano repeatedly? I mean we're all fascinated and perturbed by the prospect of Pete taking Sansa's nubile flesh in his hands and manipulating it with the same gusto with which he's manipulated Westeros as a whole. But we're sitting on the edge of our seats for years now because of how wrong this attempt at nubile nookie is. So wrong! :devil: An oldster with means reaching for a barely legal hottie? I can't stress enough how Outrageous! this is. I'm outraged. And I agree with all the people who agree. That's why the rest of us are slapping ourselves out of guilt over our prurient interest in these matters. Why aren't you slapping yourself?!! (End of bit.) Still, I hope you got the gist of the song.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Arya and puberty: OK. I was wrong. I'm sorry, TWE, if my posts bothered you.

I stand by my belief that Arya was simply exploiting herself to get what she wants rather than developing some violence fetish. I don't think TWE was arguing against that, but I just wanted to clarify what I was saying I wrong about.

Sansa and Littlefinger: This whole conversation just seems like trollin'.

Thanks, and fwiw I agree re the idea of Arya's direction/intention regarding that chapter.

[Woman of War]

Mother of the Others,

I get what you are saying, fortunately I have not been completely lost in your brilliant style of writing, feeling so very insufficient as non native speaker. Your posts are a pleasure to read even if I disagree.

My name has nothing to do with being belligerent but it has a very different story, my cute little icon may be a hint here, but that is off topic.

But we're sitting on the edge of our seats for years now because of how wrong this attempt at nubile nookie is. So wrong! An oldster with means reaching for a barely legal hottie? I can't stress enough how Outrageous! this is. I'm outraged. And I agree with all the people who agree. That's why the rest of us are slapping ourselves out of guilt over our prurient interest in these matters. Why aren't you slapping yourself?!!

The whole Sansa debate may take up half of the forum and is indeed the height of hypocrisy. I guess you are right and I'm part of it. There are about twenty important characters who are at least as story shaping as that "nubile flesh :) ", meaning the perfectly invented character of Sansa, and who have to be content with the small leftovers of forum pages they get granted because Sansa's erotic adventures must be the center of the books according to these forums.

Seriously. If people were interested in Sansa having a quiet peaceful life, untouched by all cruelty in Martinworld - why don't they leave the girl alone? Why do they start one topic after the other "why is Sansa so great (without question mark)", "With whom will she end up?" She may have become their role model at the dinner table, sitting at the edge of their laptop, sharing their thoughts and their tea. Maybe I have indeed the wrong approach to book characters. But I am arrogant enough to believe having the right approach to books: it is the story that counts, the creation as a whole. Pleasing everyone, using political correctness as excuse to stay flat, haphazard and gratuitous is not my idea of art. Art may hurt. I'm saying this as someone who is a professional artist, not a writer, beware, not even in my own language. But trying to please everyone is death to good art. I guess Martin will not step into that trap. After all there are Dany fans, Tyrion fans, Stannis fans etc out there who would rightfully ask for their share of the cake. Shall Martin please them too?

Back to Sansa via Arya: with that "Mercy" chapter Martin has shown once again that he does not shy away from being controversial. Great! It does not really matter if I personally like it - I do - but that Martin had the courage to drag that main character through the very realistic damage that Arya's approach to life and death may do to herself. Nobody, really nobody should want a child to use any kind of weapon, gun, knife or their own body. And yet they do in our world, killing others and killing their own soul at the same time. Arya is developing towards a direction we as fans may dread. And yet this part of her is an inevitable part of the books.

I do not see how the book character Sansa can develop without being in the middle of disasters, actually all characters move on by fighting or by succumbing to a series of unfortunate events. Posters here seem to have picked that person of "nubile flesh" as you so very carnally described it, as the blue screen for erotic fantasies and fanfic. At the same time causing outrage if others do right the same but not the way some fans want it done. If it's not their ship it has to be drowned. Hypocrisy and actually kind of funny when the politically incorrect are always the other ones.

Now back to Sansa: I think the whole debate whether Baelish will ever lay hand on Sansa and if she will agree to it or not isn't the important one for her character. It is a fixation of her fans that does a disservice to that protagonist. LF offers her so much more than more or less good sex: he offers her what no one gave her so far: being taken seriously as partner, as co-thinker. Her asks her opinion, tells her his plans and listens to her answers. No one did that for her until now: Ned talked to Arya when things got serious, Cersei thought her to be stupid, Sandor called her Littlebird that repeats prefabricated lines and Tyrion was unable to start any exchange with her. The thrilling, fascinating and so very new seduction in the relation to Baelish is not sex. Sansa may be in puberty, the fascination of sex is very much there and she may find an offer from Baelish interesting. While he knows that sexual pleasure is a good means to keep upright a dependency he knows as well that it is not his most important key to Sansa. (And for the story mentioning it as having happened off screen would certainly be enough, I do not need that carnal description of nubile flesh in action.)

Baelish knows what Sansa is craving for: Adulthood, being an equal, a partner, someone whose opinion counts. She never had that before, a whole new world. This all for sure is one big illusion and her fall will be deep, her revenge may be fascinating, but so far Baelish's approach in thrilling her self confidence is the most tempting seduction, not some crush or some butterflies in her lady parts.

The subtle seduction of brain, not body. Sansa is starved here and Baelish knows.

[SeanF]

Oh, people were and many are still bothered with that scene... Later, Dany develops as the sexual being so it was a bit mitigated, but the first impact was rather horrendous. And it has always been used as one of the examples of Planetos being extremely perverse world.

One of the most unsettling parts of Dany's story comes right at the start, when Viserys makes her undress and gropes her. She doesn't react against this, suggesting it's something she's used to. She's 12 at that point.

[Mladen]

None of this needs to be said, that's the beauty of it. These topics are like finger exercises on the piano with their rising and falling notes of scandal and outrage.

Mother of the Others, I will try to answer some points and if I have misunderstood you due to language barrier, please be kind to correct me. To be honest I don't think you are far from truth. These Sansa threads come out as some sort of stepping up and declare yourself as moral authority. Nevertheless, as one of those whose moral authority has perhaps been confirmed by undeniable desire not to see Sansa raped, I can say that this thread (and many others in the past) have always drawn out the best and worst in people. Would I have the need to step in and say something that is considered moral highground unless we have read the opposite? At the beginning, I tackled the question of adulthood being interchangeable term with sexuality, and while it is normal to expect some growth on that field, for humans are indeed sexual beings, it comes as if the only way one character can grow is to allow to be sexually exploited. Also, is it the only way someone's story escaping the "yawn" factor? I mean, would Sansa's story be so terribly wrong if LF never rapes her? Is that the only way we could be satisfied with her story? Throw in a rape, a bit of pseudo-incestuous relationship and by God, we got the story that is not "yawn"-ish.

This thread has just given me the wonderful opportunity to use some of the best lines from a very dear friend's textbook. It seems to me that here some posters have managed to project their deeply rooted sexual frustrations and pathological desire for a girl to be shaken up with a good "banging". It is rather strange that no other character has need to go through the same. For instance, Arya's growth isn't connected with her having some sort of non-consentual sex, I doubt many people here see Stannis, Tyrion or Jon being thrown to the whomever wants to screw them. Unlike so many other character's arcs, the opinion about Sansa's storyline has to be connected with sexuality and by God, if that girl escaped "bulbous purple" penis Tyrion had, why should she escape LF's little finger? I mean, she has to grow... And the woman can't grow unless a guy teaches her to be woman through sex... Yes, feminism died and the irony is that "feminists" killed it.

We can't pick her out of the river and lift her onto our raft because no matter how we try we can't reach into the text and affect it via these shows of protectiveness.

I can't argue with this. I simply can't affect the story in any plausible way... But what I can do is to argue against the nonsense being thrown around... And that is mainly how this thread started before entire morality exercise (which is partially my fault). Problem is that this should not be whether Sansa should go through rape, but whether we see it happening in the narrative. The problem I have here is that people don't discuss what might be Sansa's future, but what they want Sansa's future to be. For me, simply put, I don't see how Sansa might find intercourse with LF satisfactory in any way. My opinion is based on what we know about Sansa and her obvious disgust towards a man. The counterargument for my POV is that "she needs", "her story would be much more interested" etc... So, the moral exercise of this thread came as by product of some people not arguing in what direction Sansa story might take inside the narrative, but where they would take Sansa's story. And when we discard the narrative and start talking about what each of us wants, then these exercises happen.