Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 5! (DwD)

[bemused]

I've only been able to lurk a bit in the last week or so. So much to respond to. I hardly know where to start...

I'd like to expand on .. and diverge a bit from Fire Eater's post about the trees. I think the three trees can be seen as symbols of Jon's destiny if he can pass the test to acieve it... I had always thought the World tree , or Yggdrasil , was an ash.. and I'm in the camp that only sees a hint of a thunder god in The Dagda when compared to Thor. The Dagda is really much more of a father figure. His club can be devastating, but it gives life as well as taking it, and it tills the earth as he drags it behind him... and so on. His cauldron makes him the provider and his harp ,on which he plays the turn of the seasons... well , that could have implications, too.

ASH - as the World Tree in Celtic, and Yggdrasil in Norse mythology , it denotes knowledge ,inspiration , protection , healing, strength..and so , so many things that can apply to Jon.. The following are just two links out of many that distill a lot of ideas - http://www.druidry.org/library/trees/tree-lore-ash

and http://www.treesforlife.org.uk/forest/mythfolk/ash.html

"Ash was often used for spear shafts or handles for weapons. Hence Ash can be also seen to be ‘checking the powers of peace’ as above in the Word Ogams of Morann Mac Main. In this sense, application of force to destiny may bring peace through resolution of a conflict - which would be seen as healing. The English name Ash may have been derived from the Anglo-Saxon word Asec which is the name for a ritualistic spear. The name Nuin or Nin, literally means letters in the Celtic languages."

"The Ash was seen as the feminine counterpart to the All-Father tree, the Oak: in these two trees, the oak and the ash, the concepts of the All-Father and the all-embracing World Mother, found the widest lodging. They are still found by many to be deeply symbolic and meaningful."

"Thus the Ash tree is associated with positive enchantment and application of will to destiny, which in many cases represents a healing process as the individual comes into contact with the truth of their own identity and the shamanic wound."

I can almost imagine the above quotes being written with Jon specifically in mind... I love the feminine aspect here , alluding to Jon's innate abilities that come to him through his mother. I love that ash was used for weapon handles - connecting to the point previously made that Jon made the handle for Sam's obsidian knife .. and the question proposed ( by implication) in Dalla's "Magic is a sword without a hilt " - can Jon craft a hilt for it ? The application of force to destiny and of will to destiny bringing conflict resolution , peace and healing .. through coming into contact with the truth of his own identity is simply perfect , IMO.

This is the promise that Jon holds simply by being who he is ,but he will have to exert his will and the force of his actions to live up to it.. and we do see signs of him trying.

DRUNKARD - That the tree is a drunkard probably only refers to its leaning sideways in Edd's mind . Still, I can't help but think of Tormund continually plying Jon with mead, especially at important moments. Mead encouraged truth, was consumed by the gods themselves, and may have been used as an offering , sacrament?.. etc.. In the search for his purpose / identity / truth maybe Jon needs to consume a bit more ? :laugh:

CHESTNUT - abundance , fertility, provision , foresight ,longevity , invigoration...

http://www.symbolic-meanings.com/2007/10/23/symbolic-meaning-of-chestnut/

"Many Native American Indian tribes (indigenous to the northeast) held fertility & abundance as the prime symbolic meaning of chestnuts because of its prolific production of nuts.

The symbolism of longevity and provision were touted in the 12th century when Christian mystic Hildegard von Bingen extolled the virtues of the chestnut, including their propensity to prolong life when consumed in natural remedies."

.. Lyanna Stark points out that the chestnut would be too far north in our world , which probably accounts for it not being much represented in Celtic or Norse mythology, but it has a strong early medieval connection in Saint Hildegard .. and since she was a mystic and visionary , there's a secondary connection made to Bloodraven , perhaps..

It's unclear whether the tree is dead or just dormant ( I'm going with dormant ). I don't see it as particularly connected with the underworld and haven't found any outside reference to that ( not to say one doesn't exist , just not to my knowledge)... In story, the raven evokes BR and we know his location .. but I think associating the tree with the underworld alone , based on BR in the cave , misses the point , slightly ( or it's only a part of it)...

Considering that the chestnut is associated with provision, abundance , etc... and that is a BIG problem facing Jon , it can be seen as the challenge ( test ) Jon must face on his way to the third symbol (Oak)..Mormont's raven perching in the tree may show BR's awareness of the problem and wanting to stress the importance of it to Jon. Jon's mission at the moment is one of provision , but he'll still have to solve it in a much larger context.

OAK - "King of green", "King of the wood" , " King of trees" - strength , wisdom , endurance, nobility, rulership.

( All the Arthurian connotations have, I think, been well covered )

http://www.druidry.org/library/trees/tree-lore-oak

http://www.whats-your-sign.com/celtic-meaning-oak-tree.html

"Indeed, wearing oak leaves was a sign of special status among the Celts (as well as ancient Greeks and Romans). Today we see artistic renditions of the "Leafman" ( Green man) in which a man's face is covered in leaves. This is an evolution of lore that dates back to earth-based spirituality in which the regal power of the oak was recognized and honored."

The Oak represents the possible outcome for Jon ( the role of True King )... but his path from Ash to Oak lies through reinvigorating Chestnut. ( Eyes open for the man in the three tiered hat ! )

For the free folk who carved the trees, the ash gazing toward CB and the Wall is solemn - serious, not angry, but not trusting or happy either.Taking the feminine aspect of Ash into account .. ( if the carvers subscribe to it in any way ) ..mother nature is precariously out of balance , certainly cause for solemnity.

The chestnut's face is not described , but it's watching to see what's coming from CB, the Wall or beyond. ( watching a bridge and who will cross it ) Jon crosses the bridge to the free folk , instead of again requiring them to be the ones to move.

The oak sits on the northern perimeter of Mole Town.. "its deep eyes fixed upon the kingsroad. That is not a friendly face," ... "the great oak looked especially angry, as if it were about to tear its roots from the earth and come roaring after them. Its wounds are as fresh as the wounds of the men who carved it." ... and no wonder. The people who carved it have lost their king and their gods .. ( Although Jon notes that taking their Gods from them is not so easy as Mel seems to think , the affront to their gods alone must be a considerable source of anger ) ... and they've been stripped of their dignity... In what must seem an unbelievably short space of time , they've gone from being self sufficient to being reduced to subservience and beggary.

With it's eyes fixed upon the kingsroad - does that mean it's watching what is approaching from either direction ? The free folk have no reason to trust in what's coming from either north or south... An oak , are we to take it as a stand in for Mance or whoever will be their next leader? Do the free folk take it as such ,even on a subconscious level ?

Any way you look at it , this is where Jon begins to deal with the problems facing him with regard to the wildlings .. crossing the bridge to them , offering provision , restoring dignity, overruling Mel and Stannis' insistence on disavowing the old gods. Although the NW actually provided the onion soup and supplies that Stannis offered, that was still subject to Stannis' conditions. This is the first step to something new - Jon's third alternative. Trust for Jon can only grow from this point , as long as he sticks to his principles.

[DrunkSister]

I just did a preliminary skim of your post, I will read properly later, but I want to say:

his destiny if he can achieve it - that is how he got his puppy in AGoT, only after he removed himself from being a Stark and Ned's son in order to save the puppies did he hear Ghost call to him.

[Mithras]

Can we take Hardin’s Tower as the symbol of the NW? For many centuries this tower looked like as if it is about to collapse. The NW has been in decline for a long time. The last two LC’s were assassinated. It is very probable that the NW will be finally over and the Wall will collapse.

“And people burning. Me, most like. With leaves up my nose. I always feared I’d burn, but I was hoping to die first.”

I think it is possible that Edd will be the last true man standing on the Wall and the Wall will go down as he dies and is raised as a wight. There are more clues on this like when he is dreams of taking a piss on the Wall and then somebody blows Joramun’s Horn.

[bemused]

A Bit More

Just a further expansion of the 3 trees... it seems to me the oak , on the northern perimeter of Mole Town, with it's eyes on the kingsroad, must be looking south.

So "Ash" Jon looks north , solemnly.. serious , stoic , facing what must be faced... what he is innately equipped to face.

"Chestnut" Jon is focused on the bridge ( and himself crossing it ).. he holds within him the power to provide , but it needs awakening ; to be brought to life . Possible inspiration, guidance coming from BR/Bran...

"Oak" Jon ( "true king" Jon) is enraged ... ready to tear his roots from the earth and come roaring after enemies ..he looks south to the kingsroad . As leader ( "King") , it's what's coming from the south - politics ( Ramsay ?) - that inflames his wrath . It complicates and threatens his ability to deal with the more serious concerns his Ash and Chestnut selves need to focus on.

From this perspective , it foreshadows Jon's last chapter , and perhaps beyond.

[Fire Eater]

"They can wear any cloak they choose, so long as they obey my officers as they were your own."

The king was unmoved. "I have knights and lords in my service, scions of noble Houses old in honor. The cannot be expected to serve under poachers, peasants, and murderers."

Twenty, from the Watch," Jon said, "and half as many men from Stannis." [Jon giving Giant command]

Does this mean Jon has swayed Stannis?

bemused

The chestnut associations are from the Celts. As to the feminine aspect of the ash as a counterpart to the oak, ash=Stark, oak=Targaryen, the heart tree at the RK is an oak, oaks grew think along the lakeshore of Queenscrown, named for Good Queen Alysanne.I think that fits.

I edited my post to explain the oak watching the perimeter. It ties into the Protecor of the Realm or AA as the tree watches the perimeter of the village like a guard.

[Ulrik1312]

HI trying to catch up with you.

The plan suits all the parties in question: Jon is relieved from having to provide for Stannis’ men, while inheriting the 1,000 wildlings for his own use to reinforce the Watch; the Northmen will be empowered to remove the Ironborn pestilence; Stannis has a strategy that’s framed around building momentum to increase military support for his cause in order to eventually defeat the Boltons.

Unlike Jon’s role in the second council, however, they aren’t suggesting plausible strategies to the food crisis the way Jon is able to revise Stannis’ entire campaign. Winter rations, hunting and Jon’s later negotiation that severs Stannis’ men from the equation are all mitigation steps but not solutions. The one that could be a true solution is the option Bowen suggests-- sufficient coin to purchase resources from elsewhere in the realm-- but what's lacking is th

But the Night Watch still has to feed Stannis entire army doesn't it? I don't remember clearly but the clans kept their own supplies, don't they? Obviously they will spent less food if they are out since at some point they will run out and can't get more for the Watch.

And I found intersting that even when it is decide to cut the rations, it is only done to a quarter and not full winter rations. It is because he doesn't want to make a sudden change to the eating habits of the brothers? Or to make his proposal to the wildings (who I think they are getting the real winter rations instead of autumn ones) more attractive offering more food?

Marsh suggests that Jon will need to put guards on the storerooms. Given the manpower problem the NW is already facing, Jon would probably see that as a waste of effort. I see this as further demonstrating Marsh's narrow view of the problems facing the Watch - he is entirely focused on the duties/needs of the Stewards, and wants more resources poured into doing their work. He's not looking at the bigger picture, the needs of the NW as a whole. Those storeroom guards would no doubt be better employed walking the Wall, helping Builders reopen other forts, ranging, etc.

Is it that difficult to put two or three guards on the storerooms?

I suppose that is the job of he rangers and what are they doing these days? Some are guarding Mole Town and others doing patrol at top of the watch, but at least some should be available to guard the food. It could be done switch everyday the guard having a steward with them or some ranger unfit to more arduous work.

There were enough men to guard the guards but not to protect one of the most precious resources? In this case I believe Bowen is talking from experience where the storage food has been eaten before by glutton brothers and with the autumn rations it will provide some temptation.

Something that has always bother me it is the rigid structure of job division of the Night Watch. Right now the builders and the stewards are training with the bow on top of reconstructing the castle and gathering resources. However the rangers don't help with those tasks I know that their numbers are the most affected but if the human resources are needed in one specific area replace the duties of some man for another. That way the different perspectives of the watch can be shared.

This last paragraph doesn't make much sense I know.

• “Bowen Marsh had urged him to move into the Old Bear's former chambers in the King's Tower after Stannis had vacated them, but Jon had declined. Moving into the King's chambers could too easily be taken to mean he did not expect the king to return.” p267 a public gesture of support and confidence in Stannis. Perhaps exactly the kind of gesture that Bowen fearful of what might happen doesn't want Jon to make.

Another thing I found peculiar is the fact that no new blacksmith has been appointed. First of all it is a systematic failure of the Watch not having an apprentice for the job.

Jon doesn't think where the builders are going to get nails and new tools when they run out of resources or when the Long Night happen they will have enough swords or arrowheads for all the suppose wildings (who rarely have any good equipment) and men to protect the Wall.

And neither his officials brought up the topic. May be since Jon doesn't move out of the blacksmith apartments it would seem like an insult to appoint a new one forcing him to take a new residence (Is the blacksmith and steward or a builder?)

There has to be blacksmiths in Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower and they will do more good in the center of the Wall than in one of the extremes.

I hope I make some sense and that I have convey the message I was looking for.

[bemused]

Fire Eater... I'm afraid I still have to diverge on the chestnut. I've read quite a bit on Celtic mythology ( but would certainly not call myself an expert ).. anyway , of the many authors I've read, including the ones I go back to again and again - Lady Gregory ( Gods and Fighting Men , Cuchulainn of Miurthemne ) and Charles Squire ( Celtic Myth and Legend) - the only reference of note that I can find among all my books or online, is from the poetry of Taliesin who refers to the "bashful chestnut" ( it played it's part in the war of the trees ,whatever that part was .. he doesn't elaborate )

I've now googled my fingers to the bone , in case I'd missed important recent work or insights.. but there's nothing I can find .. Amusingly , what you will find searching chestnut linked with underworld is an author / speaker on the underworld whose name is Pamela Kennedy Chestnut. (what the ?)

Joe Maltese said he did " a quick research" , and I believe him. The attributes he mentions are very similar to this... http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/hub/A666425 ..except , no reference to the underworld. This is the equivalent of a newspaper horoscope column, and doesn't give its sources.

This is also pretty close , but blends beliefs from all over the world with indigenous North American tribal beliefs, in a new age sort of way... http://spiritlodge.yuku.com/topic/1073/The-Spiritual-Element-of-Trees#.U0ncr1VdWOU ... it claims, of the chestnut.. "Often seen as an ambassador to the mysterious unknown beneath the surface." ... How often seen by whom ?( Not often seen by me in my searching, at any rate ).. I'd like to know , but they don't tell.

The sweet chestnut ( from Asia Minor ) was carried as food by the armies of Alexander the Great , and later by the Roman armies , who spread the tree throughout Europe . Its connection to abundance , fertility and provision are both symbolic and literal.

I can see the case you make in your initial post .. and I like the way you connect the skeletal tree by the river to Bloodraven by the underground river.. to me, that in-story connection works all by itself. ( It's the assertions in Joe Maltese's thread that I question )

I guess my point is that more than one interpretation can apply ; so while I like yours , I like mine too .. and just because one may work , that's not to say the other doesn't.

( I confess I don't like AA one little bit , as presented so far .. and actually hope he's nothing more than a twisted version of the Last Hero or TPTWP , and that the differences will be important.)

Just In General

Re Stannis' men.. I don't remember if anything was said about the calibre of men Stannis gave Jon.. I think we can assume they weren't nobility.. but were they much more able than the men he left Mel ?

Stewards.. I think they must be in big trouble here, but it is understandable. Those who can read and write (castle raised , e.g.) would have other skill sets as well, that would be equally in demand - arms training, leadership abilities and so on, that would be thought more important. Many steward jobs simply involve fetching and carrying, building fires , laundry , etc.. only the top level would need to be literate . Leaving Clydas aside ,Wick seems to be Bowen's senior assistant and we've only seen him keep a tally which might be along the lines of this : llll . I've often wondered if that was the best he could do ,or if it was for the benefit of other stewards, who might only be able to count.

[Lummel]

Just briefly with regard to disagreements over the symbolic significance or insignificance of chestnut trees; there is a lot of nonsense available in print and online that can't be traced back to any sensible source, but in a sense none of that matters in terms of understand ASOIAF. What is important is not what is true, or actually the case, but what GRRM knows, uses or draws upon.

If, for example, GRRM is or was getting his information about the symbolic meaning of the chestnut tree off the back of a cereal packet, then that cereal packet would hold the key to understanding what he means in this passage and would be more useful than even the most expert knowledge of time travelling bard.

Trying to understand what GRRM means in some cases is not about us bringing superior or best knowledge to the books, but actually having a guess at what GRRM might know, what influenced GRRM and what information/inspiration was/is available to him.

[Ragnorak]

I think I'll join Lummel instead. Keep your red bird, am more of a cat person. And no batteries or fanatical redhead? That's barely an offer :D

I tried to include the fanatical redhead but she started ranting about the periodic table when I put her in the box (some nonsense about oxygen) and the guy from FedEx kept prattling on about rules. Beets aren't the only thing that's going to change when I take the throne! Enjoy that lager because Randyl Tarly and the warlocks are coming to teach you and Lummel some proper maniacal ambition.

Very interesting points. Something to keep in mind when Thormund and the rest of the wildings show up later on since Jon also chooses to forego judgement in that instance and goats and sheep are welcomed to enter the Realm.

The notion of the Ark, is something very notable as well. It really strikes me how many biblical references can be found embedded in Jon's story.

Very interesting observations about Tywin!

Well, a Noah's arc reference...why not? I mean we can read Maester Luwin's abbreviated history of Westeros as being inspired by the Genesis narrative. There is Eden, then Man comes along and generally trashes the place, the gods strike back with a variety of extreme weather events, man makes a covenant with the gods, but certain extreme weather events remain as a warning.

Survival is down to the ingenuity of men and women but the idea of the extremity of the destruction is preserved. I suppose Genesis is the obvious inspiration if you are writing your own origin story, the use of references to Jesus in regard to Jon might point to him as resolving the deeper disconnect between man and the gods, but it is too early in the story for that line of thought to be more than crackpot.

A tool for every task - or Contingency Theory as we call it outside of westeros. It is interesting because Jon invokes a parallel with the Lannisters and then later resolves the problem of Thenns (and I suppose the problem of the Karstarks which Robb and Rickard gifted to him in a moment of kindness to add some interest to his life) through marriage, well we have seen exactly this before in the marriage of Sansa and Tyrion, so we will be shown the difference in style between Jon and Tywin as political operators, with Tywin succeeding in using a marriage between two hostile parties to set the seal on the victory of one side over the other while Jon manages to use marriage to convince both parties that it is a fair, just and equal solution to both their problems. Which strikes me as quite interesting, we rarely think of Jon as a more effective political operator than Tywin, but perhaps it is worth considering...

The Noah's Ark reference is interesting to play with. God's reason for destroying the world is that man has become so sinful which isn't a hard accusation to lay at the feet of Westeros. Snow makes for a twist on rain and flooding but is still death by precipitation. It is a divine judgment and not really one that takes great effort to sort the sheep from the goats. Jon is also insulated from the flooding that is destroying Westeros in many ways by being at the Wall. There is a bit of an Ark metaphor to his being at the Wall and one that puts him on a path to be a rebuilder after the destruction.

The Biblical aspect also has potential in terms of the Old and New Testaments. They are the Old and New Covenants. The Old Testament God was a wrathful God (not un-Stannis-like) while the New Testament is a more merciful Ned-like one. The Old Covenant was sealed by Abraham where the tradition of human sacrifice was replaced by animal sacrifice and the New Testament is sealed with a return to human sacrifice but as a willing choice and not a helpless victim. That New Covenant then forgoes sacrifice and replaces it with something very much akin to Guest Right. We don't know much about The Pact that ended the First Men and CotF wars but there's a good bit of potential for some Old and New Covenant themes as well as human and animal sacrifice playing a part with Bran's visions and skinchanging.

There's a also a bit about past sins being wiped away. Joining the Watch washes away crimes. Jon's eventual deal to let the Wildlings through has a similar aspect where past crimes are washed away. It isn't so much a lack of judgment as an offer to be judged cleanly from this day forward without the events of the past playing a part. This is, at least in theory, how peace is achieved. One cannot go on prosecuting one's opponent's crimes committed during war if there is ever going to be a peace. That path leads to the Brackens and Blackwoods. It is offering a choice for the future instead of judgments for the past but the shadow of judgment still hangs over them as they accept this clean slate.-- I'll take off your head, ask my brothers if I won't.

Tywin has very different goals than Jon. Tywin seeks to be King of the Hill and we have a very empirical test (or at least it seems empirical as we first read) in the form of an Iron Throne to know who is currently King of the Hill. Jon is trying to unite people to face an external and existential threat while trying to avoid the political arena that Tywin exists to be in. So much plot drama focuses on that iron chair that it is difficult to see political astuteness in those not becoming closer to owning it. Is it Doran's great failure or success that no one from Dorne but Oberyn has died? His land and people are untouched by war while the other kingdoms' resources and people dwindle but still Doran is currently viewed as a too cautious procrastinator despite his relative power waxing and a distinct lack of Dornish corpses that litter the rest of Westeros. What is politically astute? The Tyrells let Tywin claim victory for the battle while they quietly kill his grandson and pit his House against itself.

Alys, the Clan Chiefs, Mel, Stannis, Selyse, the Wildlings and their factions, and the internal divisions in the Watch are the political factions Jon must deal with under a shadow of implications to a politically volatile Westeros. Different players, different stakes , and a different end state from a Tywin but there's a political acumen to be seen all the same. Like most of Martin's writing I think it poses more than answers the question.

Sam III is up.

[Mithras]

I think the Wall is the closest thing to a Purgatory. Those who are not pure enough to live in the world of the humans should purify themselves at the Wall. Lands-Beyond-the-Wall contain extinct and forgotten races/animals. It is like an Afterlife, or Underworld or the Realm of the Dead. The attack of the Others from the North is something like the attack of the legions of Hell, which is basically the Armageddon.

[bemused]

Lummel.. Yes, I do apologise about the chestnut business.. now everyone knows where one of my exposed nerves is. (Cue Robin Hood , Prince of Theives .."It's the Celts !" )

Fire Eater ,I hope you know I wasn't intending to be demeaning to your take ( which I often appreciate ) , just offering an alternate view.

Symbols can be taken so many different ways , and with GRRM , for all we know, there could be another football or 3 Stooges homage in there somewhere..

[Lummel]

...And I found intersting that even when it is decide to cut the rations, it is only done to a quarter and not full winter rations. It is because he doesn't want to make a sudden change to the eating habits of the brothers? Or to make his proposal to the wildings (who I think they are getting the real winter rations instead of autumn ones) more attractive offering more food?

Is it that difficult to put two or three guards on the storerooms?...

Something that has always bother me it is the rigid structure of job division of the Night Watch...

Another thing I found peculiar is the fact that no new blacksmith has been appointed. First of all it is a systematic failure of the Watch not having an apprentice for the job...

The mystery of the missing Blacksmith! It is true, a blacksmith must be an important craftsman to have, particularly since they plan to reoopen all the castles and there will be a lot of rebuilding that must require a lot of ironmongery - nails, screws, brackets, hinges, reinforcing bands all that kind of stuff, then the new wildling recruits all need to be kitted out with helmets and chainmail, arrows, spears, swords...

There does seem to be a shortage of men. Hardly any returned from Mormont's ranging. The Shadow Tower and Eastwatch are requesting men too, so there does seem to be an issue there. I wonder about the rigid job division too, for instance, before they started to reopen the castles what were all the builders doing? From the descriptions Castle Black doesn't sound particularly well maintained.

Don't know about the rations. I don't think the wildlings would enter into it because they surely wouldn't know what was on the Castle Black menu. I assumed that Jon didn't want to start being the new lord commander by cutting the amount of food that everybody gets drastically. :dunno: It seems odd to me, I thought that people working in colder climates generally need more calories to survive not fewer. Times will be hard on the wall in future books.

...Tywin has very different goals than Jon. Tywin seeks to be King of the Hill and we have a very empirical test (or at least it seems empirical as we first read) in the form of an Iron Throne to know who is currently King of the Hill. Jon is trying to unite people to face an external and existential threat while trying to avoid the political arena that Tywin exists to be in. So much plot drama focuses on that iron chair that it is difficult to see political astuteness in those not becoming closer to owning it. Is it Doran's great failure or success that no one from Dorne but Oberyn has died? His land and people are untouched by war while the other kingdoms' resources and people dwindle but still Doran is currently viewed as a too cautious procrastinator despite his relative power waxing and a distinct lack of Dornish corpses that litter the rest of Westeros. What is politically astute? The Tyrells let Tywin claim victory for the battle while they quietly kill his grandson and pit his House against itself.

Alys, the Clan Chiefs, Mel, Stannis, Selyse, the Wildlings and their factions, and the internal divisions in the Watch are the political factions Jon must deal with under a shadow of implications to a politically volatile Westeros. Different players, different stakes , and a different end state from a Tywin but there's a political acumen to be seen all the same. Like most of Martin's writing I think it poses more than answers the question...

There's a sense maybe that the means have become the end. The throne is a means of doing things - securing the realm, keeping peace, enhancing the commonwealth and commonweal, but has become the prize. The notion of a game of thrones has become dominant with any notion of what you achieve power for being forgotten :dunno:

The wall is a bit of an arc in being a refuge for the wildlings and Alys. Maybe its stores are a (or might have been) a means of surviving the winter :dunno:

I think the Wall is the closest thing to a Purgatory...

Yes, fair point, after all once accepted on the Wall you are expected to work or serve and you are forbidden some normal contacts with everyday life.

Lummel.. Yes, I do apologise about the chestnut business.. now everyone knows where one of my exposed nerves is. (Cue Robin Hood , Prince of Theives .."It's the Celts !" )...

No need to apologise! It is just there could be / is for sure in some cases a difference between what is right or represents good, contemporary scholarship and what inspires GRRM.

The three trees are interesting because the only other face trees mentioned are weirwoods (iirc). So what are the wildlings doing? Is this about intimidating the kneelers? Asserting themselves? Feeling comfortable? Do they believe that this will allow the gods to protect them?

[bemused]

It seems to me that the wildlings are at least hoping the 3 trees will allow the old gods to protect them . Or maybe they're trying to make amends .We don't see too many of them coming to Mel's services ( admittedly it's a trek), and I'm thinking the vast majority of them must feel some guilt over the price they paid to cross through the wall.

I was thinking about the blacksmith problem ... there must be a few guys who can do rudimentary smithing , horse shoes , nails and the like .. Donal was an armourer and surely wouldn't have had time to do every little thing himself ?

I know it's not mentioned , but it seems strange that that should be the case. There is this from Sam AFfC chapter,

“Lord Snow is waiting.” Two guards in black cloaks and iron halfhelms stood by the doors of the armory, leaning on their spears. Hairy Hal was the one who’d spoken. Mully helped Sam back to his feet. He blurted out thanks and hurried past them, clutching desperately at the stack of books as he made his way past the forge with its anvil and bellows. A shirt of ringmail rested on his workbench, half-completed. Ghost was stretched out beneath the anvil, gnawing on the bone of an ox to get at the marrow. The big white direwolf looked up when Sam went by, but made no sound.

This has often bothered me. Noye is not mentioned, so I've never known if "his" is a mistake , if Jon's been adding pre-made rings himself, or if it means it's now Jon's workbench, but still something Noye was working on.. or someone else. It seems it would have been a long time for it to be a project of Noye's still lying there.

[Mithras]

I think the Wall is the closest thing to a Purgatory. Those who are not pure enough to live in the world of the humans should purify themselves at the Wall. Lands-Beyond-the-Wall contain extinct and forgotten races/animals. It is like an Afterlife, or Underworld or the Realm of the Dead. The attack of the Others from the North is something like the attack of the legions of Hell, which is basically the Armageddon.

Since GRRM wrote the last episode of the TV show (S04E02), we can conclude some bits from there to strengthen this idea.

Mel talks with Shireen and she says that the only hell is the one they all live in right now. Immediately after this, we go to Bran who is travelling north of the Wall and in his visions he glimpses the Others and the wights.

[Lyanna Stark]

Jon the Reader?

Regarding Jon's development, I know it was discussed in one of the earlier re-reads that Jon disagreed with Sam when it came to whether books where treasures (Jon did not really believe they were) and how Sam was definitely a Reader, while Jon was not. In this chapter, I think we see that Jon may not be a Reader by choice, but he seems to be turning into a Reader by Occupation.

He'd fetched them up himself, after spending half the night searching through dusty vaults by lantern light. Sam was right, the books desperately needed to be sorted, listed, and put in order, but that was no task for stewards who could neither read nor write.

Apart from pointing to a rather restrictive view on knowledge sharing (why did the people who knew how to read not go about teaching the stewards who didn't?) it definitely points to Jon understanding the value of books. They may not yet be treasure as they are to Sam, but they're definitely a resource that in Jon's view should be sorted, listed and put in order.

Does this also show something about Jon's stance on acquiring knowledge? The old adage about the more you know the more you realise you do not know could apply, perhaps? The knowledge he has gained beyond the Wall certainly showed him that even if he knows more, he doesn't know nearly enough about the White Walkers, the Long Night and the history of the Nights Watch, etc.

Kill the Boy and Let the Man be Born.

We have more of these Kind Words of Maester Aemon in this chapter, where Jon wallows about how he may have sent Gilly and her baby to their graves instead of to safety. Jon may want to kill the boy, but it's easier said than done, and perhaps not always desirable? I mean sure, being able to make hard decisions is important, but they also take their toll, which we're starting to see here with Jon, I think.

Jon also refers to Maester Aemon by his full name in this chapter, mentioning that Clydas did not have a tenth of "Aemon Targaryen's knowledge and experience".

Stannis:

Even if he was not the most popular guest in the universe, it seems he's left behind emptiness and listlessness. Does that mean something, or is it just a general "Well, at least we used to have some people milling about and some action, now we don't even have that". I don't know. Perhaps it's more Jon's personal reflection on not being in on the going to war action?

Jon the Stark.

I found it a bit odd that Jon has in the past relied on being Ned's bastard, so Stark-aligned if you will, but in this chapter he references Winterfell's destruction as a means to recruit people. A bit backwards perhaps? :lol:

"Winterfell's walls were strong as well, but Winterfell stands in ruins today, burned and broken. A wall is only as good as the men defending it."

While this is of course The Ned's wisdom of walls and men, it's also a bit of a backwards "I am the last Stark", isn't it? Even if Jon didn't mean it like that. Winterfell and the Starks have always stood and protected the North, but now Winterfell and its walls are in ruins, and the Starks (allegedly) dead or scattered, but here is one Stark-looking half-Stark and another strong wall needing men to defend it. Is Jon consciously channeling a "Stark protecting the North" mode here or is it just a meta-reading?

It's further reinforced when he says they have to pick, and that his own Gods are those of the North. Not to run ahead too much either, but this pattern is followed once again when Alys Karstark and Ramsay Snow both seem to react to Jon Snow as the "Stark in the North" in many ways. While Jon is not exactly a Stark of Winterfell, he seems to be close enough.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Jon the Reader?

Regarding Jon's development, I know it was discussed in one of the earlier re-reads that Jon disagreed with Sam when it came to whether books where treasures (Jon did not really believe they were) and how Sam was definitely a Reader, while Jon was not. In this chapter, I think we see that Jon may not be a Reader by choice, but he seems to be turning into a Reader by Occupation.

i think the Sam and Aemon "knowledge is a weapon line" leads to Jon starting to read. I think it is also a reflection on Jon and Dany (at this time in adwd); Jon looks for a way out of a problem, and if Dany can't conquer it she escapes into children's books and or Daario later

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Jon the Reader?

Regarding Jon's development, I know it was discussed in one of the earlier re-reads that Jon disagreed with Sam when it came to whether books where treasures (Jon did not really believe they were) and how Sam was definitely a Reader, while Jon was not. In this chapter, I think we see that Jon may not be a Reader by choice, but he seems to be turning into a Reader by Occupation.

To add to this, I see Jon tacitly admitting to himself that his prior attitude was mistaken. Sam and Aemon have demonstrated that these books are indeed treasures. Jon needs them , and now he as no one he can delegate the reading to. He must do it himself. (As a leader, Jon develops major delegation problems. As he loses respect for the abilities of his subordinates to advise him, Jon wholeheartedly buys into the "If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself" philosophy.)

[Lyanna Stark]

i think the Sam and Aemon "knowledge is a weapon line" leads to Jon starting to read. I think it is also a reflection on Jon and Dany (at this time in adwd); Jon looks for a way out of a problem, and if Dany can't conquer it she escapes into children's books and or Daario later

Well Dany is also looking for ways out of problems, however Dany's mentors so far has not been of the "reading is key" kind (Viserys, anyone? :uhoh: Jorah and Barry aren't exactly reading geniuses either). You are right though, I think, in that Jon, unlike Aemon and Sam probably doesn't enjoy reading as much for pleasure, but he has seen the use by this time, it seems.

To add to this, I see Jon tacitly admitting to himself that his prior attitude was mistaken. Sam and Aemon have demonstrated that these books are indeed treasures. Jon needs them , and now he as no one he can delegate the reading to. He must do it himself. (As a leader, Jon develops major delegation problems. As he loses respect for the abilities of his subordinates to advise him, Jon wholeheartedly buys into the "If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself" philosophy.)

True. He doesn't really spell it out, but Jon seems to have internalised a lot of these lessons from Sam/Aemon/Mance/Donal Noye/Yrgitte et al. Perhaps Ygritte's main function ("You know nothing") was not to actually teach Jon as such, but to make him question stuff, and to realise he didn't actually know everything and needed more information? Sam/Aemon's reading advice and Ygritte's "You know nothing Jon Snow" seem to work in tandem here.

Agreed too on delegation. Dany has the same issues, I think, perhaps to an even higher degree. When it comes to delegation, I think Tyrion, Tywin and Littlefinger have something to teach Dany and Jon, although I'm not certain all their methods (especially Tywin's and LF's) should be applicable. :)

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Well Dany is also looking for ways out of problems, however Dany's mentors so far has not been of the "reading is key" kind (Viserys, anyone? :uhoh: Jorah and Barry aren't exactly reading geniuses either). You are right though, I think, in that Jon, unlike Aemon and Sam probably doesn't enjoy reading as much for pleasure, but he has seen the use by this time, it seems.

i didn't mean it to knock Dany, basically every lesson Jon gets comes up in Dany's storyline, from Daario is the "girl" in her to Barristan's pov "oh melisandi is reading something" (and later she offers political advice)

[Lummel]

This business of Jon reading is interesting.

Aemon told Jon to read the passage in the Jade compendium which plainly related to Lightbringer. No doubt that persuaded him that there was some value to reading, but what is this great pile of books? Is he just trawling through what there is as Sam apparently was looking for something, anything about the White Walkers? We are not given any information about what he is reading, just told that he is and that it is important enough for him to be making time to do it even if at the end of the day - it is worth the candle apparently.