Stannis or Euron: Who is the better naval commander?

[Stormland's Fury]

You try it without a compass (the vikings did actually have primitive compass-like technology). Also, there's a difference between sailing one ship off the coast (Euron has clearly done this plenty of times) and sailing and keeping an entire fleet together while doing so. Clearly nobody has, or the Mander wouldn't have been closed to the Ironborn for 2000 years, and Euron never would have caught the Shield Islands off-guard.

Euron likewise played his role on land, by leading the assault on the Shield Island keeps.

I'm comparing the two because they're both amphibical operations with the same goal: To take holdings on land. We can't compare naval battles (seen in the books) because we have no information about Euron in that regard.

Those smaller islands are supported by the biggest, most populated region in Westeros. If they were so easy to take, the Ironborn wouldn't have waited 2000 years to do so.

Yes, that would be silly indeed, because that was never an amphibious assault the landing and fighting was days if not weeks apart. The two in question are.

The Reach was among others occupied with other problems, that's why Euron plans to invade it in the first place. Euron had also first to command his fleet before even set up camp on the Shield Islands so that's not relevant, he still attacked while on his ship to get there. Stannis was on land since Storm's End, while his fleet was sailing along the coast.

Same goal yes, but definitely different circumstances. If I wanted to defend Stannis, I could also leave out details.

I just put together objectively what we know and I admitted that we not enough about Euron as a commander in my first post.

The post is about comparing Euron and Stannis as commanders, not about the Ironborn motivations as whole or their history. things change over time.

[Stormland's Fury]

Yeah, tell me again when that assault was and how large the opposing forces were. Holy crap, a monkey could have commanded that and won. You basically have the entire army of the 7k against a tiny garrison who's already ready to surrender and sell the Targaryens.

Then the argument is invalid, but when Euron attacks a weaker force it matters?

[Lord Reaver]

The post is about comparing Euron and Stannis as commanders, not about the Ironborn motivations as whole or their history. things change over time.

The point is the Ironborn have always had motivation to raid the Mander, and did so extensively until the Shield Islands were fortified and the signal system put in place. Seriously, go back and read the "The Reaver" chapter. Since then, those islands have deterred everyone for 2000 years. Taking them is showing Euron's brilliance as a commander, and as such, relevant to the thread.

[Lord Reaver]

Then the argument is invalid, but when Euron attacks a weaker force it matters?

Like I said, that weaker force is supported by a force that is actually greater on the mainland. Euron's attack only succeeds because he's taken this into account and laid a brilliant plan accordingly, in order to deny his enemy the opportunity to get said reinforcements.

No such plan was needed for the assault on Dragonstone. Basically all Stannis had to do was show up, and the castle was his.

[Stormland's Fury]

The point is the Ironborn have always had motivation to raid the Mander, and did so extensively until the Shield Islands were fortified and the signal system put in place. Seriously, go back and read the "The Reaver" chapter. Since then, those islands have deterred everyone for 2000 years. Taking them is showing Euron's brilliance as a commander, and as such, relevant to the thread.

Yes, because there is a difference between an Ironlander taking the Shield Islands with the full power of their navy or not being able to raid their shorts with smaller fleets.

Euron did an invasion, the Iron Islands only attempted raids up to then, like they did with other islands or coastal towns.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I see, so only when Stannis wins, is he actually in charge.

Well, he's only lost once and that was when he wasn't the one commanding his fleet, so yes.

Stannis' army, Stannis' plan. Imry Florent commanded the ships, much like Vic commanded the Ironborn for the Lannister sack.

Except that it's explicitly stated that it was Imry's plan, while it had been Euron's plan at Lannisport.

[Stormland's Fury]

Like I said, that weaker force is supported by a force that is actually greater on the mainland. Euron's attack only succeeds because he's taken this into account and laid a brilliant plan accordingly, in order to deny his enemy the opportunity to get said reinforcements.

No such plan was needed for the assault on Dragonstone. Basically all Stannis had to do was show up, and the castle was his.

But that force didn't support the islands, Euron attack the islands and still holds them because no Reachmen or ships have arrived yet.

I am also not sure if the royal family's ancestral home, last stronghold, location of the pregnant queen and heir, was lightly defended. Yes Euron's assault was more impressive though.

And I wasn't even defending Stannis or Euron just comparing their achievements. It's just hard to be objective when someone argues subjectively.

[Lord Reaver]

Euron did an invasion, the Iron Islands only attempted raids up to then, like they did with other islands or coastal towns.

Euron isn't the first King to command the entire Ironborn fleet in 2000 years.

Dagon Greyjoy likewise commanded the entire Ironborn fleet and yet he didn't dare attempt the Shield Islands. Instead he raided the arbor.

When the Kings of Salt and Rock were independent, they didn't attempt to raid the Mander since the Shield Islands were fortified.

There's a pattern here: The Shield Islands, with their communication and reinforcement from shore are incredibly hard to assault by sea. Euron did it.

[Lord Reaver]

But that force didn't support the islands, Euron attack the islands and still holds them because no Reachmen or ships have arrived yet.

:bang: The Reachmen didn't support the islands because of Euron's plan.

They had ships, Euron lured them into a trap and had Victarion destroy them.

[Stormland's Fury]

:bang: The Reachmen didn't support the islands because of Euron's plan.

They had ships, Euron lured them into a trap and had Victarion destroy them.

"When Euron Greyjoy was made King of the Iron Islands he promised to conquer the Seven Kingdoms and return the ironborn as a significant power in the Seven Kingdoms. His first strike would be a surprise attack on the unguarded Reach, whose armies were off fighting battles in the Crownlands and the Riverlands.^[1]"

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Like I said, that weaker force is supported by a force that is actually greater on the mainland. Euron's attack only succeeds because he's taken this into account and laid a brilliant plan accordingly, in order to deny his enemy the opportunity to get said reinforcements.

You're using an awful lot of words to say "he destroyed the fleet there". It doesn't take a genius to realise you're going to need to knock out the local fleet to have any hope of holding the islands. Euron's plan was very good, but you're making it seem like he was a genius for doing what was only logical.

[Lord Reaver]

I am also not sure if the royal family's ancestral home, last stronghold, location of the pregnant queen and heir, was lightly defended. Yes Euron's assault was more impressive though.

You said it yourself "last stronghold". How many men do you think was left to the Targaryens after Robert had defeated them in every battle and their king and crown prince had been killed ?

I'll repeat: The garrison was ready to sell the pregnant queen and heir. That's why lord Darry had them smuggled out.

[Stormland's Fury]

You said it yourself "last stronghold". How many men do you think was left to the Targaryens after Robert had defeated them in every battle and their king and crown prince had been killed ?

I'll repeat: The garrison was ready to sell the pregnant queen and heir. That's why lord Darry had them smuggled out.

There would be have an inner skirmish between loyalists and rebels though, but the situation got to hot to risk it. Again, I was not defending Stannis nor did I downplay Euron.

[Lord Reaver]

"When Euron Greyjoy was made King of the Iron Islands he promised to conquer the Seven Kingdoms and return the ironborn as a significant power in the Seven Kingdoms. His first strike would be a surprise attack on the unguarded Reach, whose armies were off fighting battles in the Crownlands and the Riverlands.^[1]"

When quoting something, it is standard to say where your quote comes from. Happily though, I recognize this, it's from the Wiki. Which is....open for editing by just about anyone, unless I'm mistaken ? So, that quote is really no better than you saying so yourself.

I, on the other hand referred you to the relevant chapter in the actual books, where the defenses of the Shield Islands is indeed described, leaving no doubt that they are not unguarded at all.

[Lord Reaver]

You're using an awful lot of words to say "he destroyed the fleet there". It doesn't take a genius to realise you're going to need to knock out the local fleet to have any hope of holding the islands. Euron's plan was very good, but you're making it seem like he was a genius for doing what was only logical.

Funny how noone had devised such a plan in 2000 years, then, if it was so bloody simple.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Stannis, he destroyed the Iron fleet.

[Stormland's Fury]

When quoting something, it is standard to say where your quote comes from. Happily though, I recognize this, it's from the Wiki. Which is....open for editing by just about anyone, unless I'm mistaken ? So, that quote is really no better than you saying so yourself.

I, on the other hand referred you to the relevant chapter in the actual books, where the defenses of the Shield Islands is indeed described, leaving no doubt that they are not unguarded at all.

It was easier to find a wiki entry. But it is clear in the books that the Reach's fleet and army is on the Est coast. See Loras taking Dragonstone for example.

But seriously, if you need now exact references for things that are relevant to the main plot i just stop here, everyone who read the books knows that the Reachmen are in crownlands now, and Euron specifically said that the North is nothing compared to the Reach which they can have now.

If Euron attacked the Reach while it was still fully guarded, then it would Euron even make less competent because he picked a battle he could not win, so I'm not sure what you are saying here. Of course it can argued that Euron has a plan for the Redwyne fleet, but we don't know yet what exactly.

I started as simply interpreting how I see both commanders, but you start to defend now the Ironborn as whole. I never denied Euron was good, but said that we will probably see more of him. We as readers know more about Stannis capabilities, thus we can have a better picture of him.

Euron is a major player now, and I like him, but he's not withouth his flaws.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Funny how noone had devised such a plan in 2000 years, then, if it was so bloody simple.

Funny indeed. Perhaps it was because the Redwyne Fleet was normally not too far away, while at that point it was rather conveniently tied up at Dragonstone.

[Lord Reaver]

It was easier to find a wiki entry. But it is clear in the books that the Reach's fleet and army is on the Est coast. See Loras taking Dragonstone for example.

The Redwyne fleet is on the East coast. The Tyrell and some of their bannermen's armies are on the East coast. That does not mean the Reach is completely devoid of men. The Hightowers, for instance, a very powerful house (which is close to the shield islands) have not sent any men with Loras.

But, if you don't trust me, here's Loras from the books explaining: "Willas and Garlan can raise ten thousand men within a fortnight and twice that in a moon's turn, but they cannot walk on water, Your Grace." (AFFC, ch 33)

Clearly, there are men left still in the Reach.

[Lord Reaver]

Funny indeed. Perhaps it was because the Redwyne Fleet was normally not too far away, while at that point it was rather conveniently tied up at Dragonstone.

And when Dagon had destroyed the Redwyne Fleet and was pillaging the Arbor, he still didn't. The books are explicitly clear: The Shield Islands being fortified and reinforced by land is what's been deterring raiders from going up the mander these last 2000 years. Not the Redwyne fleet.