Stannis or Euron: Who is the better naval commander?

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

And when Dagon had destroyed the Redwyne Fleet and was pillaging the Arbor, he still didn't. The books are explicitly clear: The Shield Islands being fortified and reinforced by land is what's been deterring raiders from going up the mander these last 2000 years. Not the Redwyne fleet.

That seems very odd to me. Why did Dagon not bother taking out the ships at the Shield Islands?

[Roddy the Ruin]

Why are we discussing this when we could be talking about how Shiera Seastar could possibly Westeros's biggest serial killer :dunno:

[Stormland's Fury]

The Redwyne fleet is on the East coast. The Tyrell and some of their bannermen's armies are on the East coast. That does not mean the Reach is completely devoid of men. The Hightowers, for instance, a very powerful house (which is close to the shield islands) have not sent any men with Loras.

But, if you don't trust me, here's Loras from the books explaining: "Willas and Garlan can raise ten thousand men within a fortnight and twice that in a moon's turn, but they cannot walk on water, Your Grace." (AFFC, ch 33)

Clearly, there are men left still in the Reach.

They can raise them, but they haven't at the point the Ironborn invade, hence a surprise attack. What happens when they actually arrive is another question. Also it's about naval abilities and you drifting more and more into land battles and holding the Shields.

I said that Euron probably has some cards up his sleeve, but we don't know yet what, thus we can't take that into consideration yet if discussing him a s a naval commander.

The topic title should actually be "Who would win a naval battle, Euron or Stannis" just to avoid this kind of speculating.

[Lord Reaver]

They can raise them, but they haven't at the point the Ironborn invade, hence a surprise attack.

And it's only a surprise attack because of Euron's skill as a commander.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Why are we discussing this when we could be talking about how Shiera Seastar could possibly Westeros's biggest serial killer :dunno:

Because BRaven might hear us and punish us for talking about his Lady Love. :ph34r:

[Lord Reaver]

That seems very odd to me. Why did Dagon not bother taking out the ships at the Shield Islands?

Because the ships at the Shield Islands are on land most of the time. Look, since none of you can be bothered to crack open the book, I'll post the relevant section:

"Two thousand years had passed, but in the watchtowers along their craggy shores, greybeards still kept the ancient vigil. At the first glimpse of longships the old men would light their beacon fires, and the call would leap from hill to hill and island to island. Fear! Foes! Raiders! Raiders! When the fisherfolk saw the fires burning on the high places they would put their nets and plows aside and take up their swords and axes. Their lords would rush from their castles, attended by their knights and men-at-arms. Warhorns would echo across the waters, from Greenshield and Greyshield, Oakenshield and Southshield, and their longships would come sliding out from moss-covered stone pens along the shores, oars flashing as they swarmed across the straits to seal the Mander and hound and harry the raiders upriver to their doom" (AFFC, ch 29 "The Reaver")

[Roddy the Ruin]

Because BRaven might hear us and punish us for talking about his Lady Love. :ph34r:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/106600-shiera-seastar-elizabeth-of-bathory/?view=getnewpost

I would just love it if GRRM makes a beautiful young woman the most evil, sick, and narcissistic monster in the series, considering how men are typically the serial killers. If Shiera is truly based off of Elizabeth of Bathory she would put Ramsay to shame.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I would just love it if GRRM makes a beautiful young woman the most evil, sick, and narcissistic monster in the series

The link seems interesting I will answer it.

He has done it already.

Dany d'uh! :P

[Stormland's Fury]

And it's only a surprise attack because of Euron's skill as a commander.

Yes, did I deny that? That's what characterises good commanders.

But first you put your eggs in the "Euron is a genius commander because he managed to invade the heavily defended Shield Island" basket, until finally coming to the conclusion that I had from the beginning.

Anyway back on topic: I think Euron has the better experience on sea, while Stannis is a good military commander in general.

Another aspect we need to consider is who they are leading. Stannis has experience as a commander of the Royal Fleet and later on even pirates, while Euron has experience as commander of Ironborn. Both have significantly different functions and approaches.

[Stormland's Fury]

Because the ships at the Shield Islands are on land most of the time. Look, since none of you can be bothered to crack open the book, I'll post the relevant section:

"Two thousand years had passed, but in the watchtowers along their craggy shores, greybeards still kept the ancient vigil. At the first glimpse of longships the old men would light their beacon fires, and the call would leap from hill to hill and island to island. Fear! Foes! Raiders! Raiders! When the fisherfolk saw the fires burning on the high places they would put their nets and plows aside and take up their swords and axes. Their lords would rush from their castles, attended by their knights and men-at-arms. Warhorns would echo across the waters, from Greenshield and Greyshield, Oakenshield and Southshield, and their longships would come sliding out from moss-covered stone pens along the shores, oars flashing as they swarmed across the straits to seal the Mander and hound and harry the raiders upriver to their doom" (AFFC, ch 29 "The Reaver")

No one needs to crack open the book, because what Ironborn or Reachmen have done in the past 2000 years has absolutely no relevance to Euron or Stannis as a naval commander. Dagon is not Euron.

[Lord Reaver]

Anyway back on topic: I think Euron has the better experience on sea, while Stannis is a good military commander in general.

I've said this in posts before: Stannis is very likely the best overall living commander in Westeros.

I simply disagree he's better than Euron at sea.

Another aspect we need to consider is who they are leading. Stannis has experience as a commander of the Royal Fleet and later on even pirates, while Euron has experience as commander of Ironborn. Both have significantly different functions and approaches.

At sea, nobody is better than the Ironborn, this is repeated time and again in the books. Clearly, Euron would have the upper hand there. On the other hand, Stannis (if say leading the Royal fleet) has the better ships.

[Formerly Tetrarch42]

I've said this in posts before: Stannis is very likely the best overall living commander in Westeros.

I simply disagree he's better than Euron at sea.

At sea, nobody is better than the Ironborn, this is repeated time and again in the books. Clearly, Euron would have the upper hand there. On the other hand, Stannis (if say leading the Royal fleet) has the better ships.

We've seen Euron win one victory. Victarion has won more victories than him. Stannis decimated Victarion.

[Lord Reaver]

We've seen Euron win one victory. Victarion has won more victories than him. Stannis decimated Victarion.

Victarion has commanded the Iron Fleet for a long time. Euron has not. Of course Victarion has won more victories, he's fought way more battles. You can't win if you're not actually fighting, no matter how good you are.

ETA: And Stannis won against Vic because he fell for a simple trap, one it's fairly certain Euron wouldn't have been stupid enough to fall for.

[Stormland's Fury]

I've said this in posts before: Stannis is very likely the best overall living commander in Westeros.

I simply disagree he's better than Euron at sea.

At sea, nobody is better than the Ironborn, this is repeated time and again in the books. Clearly, Euron would have the upper hand there. On the other hand, Stannis (if say leading the Royal fleet) has the better ships.

All in all how would an Iron Fleet battle go about? The Royal ships are bigger but the longships are faster. There is probably also all lot of archery involved and I would assume that the Ironborn are much better at actually boarding ships.

EDIT: Yes, I agree that Euron is better at sea.

We've seen Euron win one victory. Victarion has won more victories than him. Stannis decimated Victarion.

I would say that this doesn't say necessarily much. Stannis is more clever and presumably a better military commander than Victarion. Euron is definitely more clever than Vic and presumably as crafty as Stannis.

[Lord Reaver]

All in all how would an Iron Fleet battle go about? The Royal ships are bigger but the longships are faster. There is probably also all lot of archery involved and I would assume that the Ironborn are much better at actually boarding ships.

Good question, but a difficult one to give any definite answer to. Mainly because the ships in question are so different. We have very few accounts of sea battles between these types of ships (because GRRM is being borderline anachronistic).

Large scale battles between longships, we have several accounts of, mainly from the kings' sagas. They all seem to end up as massive entangled "fleets" of ships, on which battle is then fought, sort of like on a small floating island.

Certainly there was widespread use of missile weapons before the ships met, however, as we have from the "Konungs skuggsjaa" or "King's Mirror" (http://www.mediumaevum.com/75years/mirror/index.html), an excellent 13th century source:

"Weapons of many sorts may be used to advantage on shipboard, which one

has no occasion to use on land, except in a fortress or castle. Longhandled

scythes and long-shafted broadaxes, "war-beams "and staff slings, darts,:

and missiles of every sort are serviceable on ships. Crossbows and longbows

are useful as well as all other forms of shooting weapons; but coal and

sulphur are, however, the most effective munitions of all that I have named.

Caltrops cast in lead and good halberds are also effective weapons on shipboard.

A tower joined to the mast will be serviceable along with these and

many other defenses, as is also a beam cloven into four parts and set with

prongs of hard steel, which is drawn up against the mast. A "prow-boar":

with an ironclad snout is also useful in naval battles."

Clearly, this is later than the time of "true" longships, as they talk about towers, but I believe the weapons are still relevant.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Because the ships at the Shield Islands are on land most of the time. Look, since none of you can be bothered to crack open the book, I'll post the relevant section:

"Two thousand years had passed, but in the watchtowers along their craggy shores, greybeards still kept the ancient vigil. At the first glimpse of longships the old men would light their beacon fires, and the call would leap from hill to hill and island to island. Fear! Foes! Raiders! Raiders! When the fisherfolk saw the fires burning on the high places they would put their nets and plows aside and take up their swords and axes. Their lords would rush from their castles, attended by their knights and men-at-arms. Warhorns would echo across the waters, from Greenshield and Greyshield, Oakenshield and Southshield, and their longships would come sliding out from moss-covered stone pens along the shores, oars flashing as they swarmed across the straits to seal the Mander and hound and harry the raiders upriver to their doom" (AFFC, ch 29 "The Reaver")

Thanks for the quote, but raiders is one thing, the Iron Fleet is quite another.

[Lord Reaver]

Thanks for the quote, but raiders is one thing, the Iron Fleet is quite another.

I've already addressed this. Euron isn't the first King of the Iron Islands to command the entire Ironborn fleet in 2000 years.

He is, however, the first to take the Shield Islands in that time.

[Stormland's Fury]

Good question, but a difficult one to give any definite answer to. Mainly because the ships in question are so different. We have very few accounts of sea battles between these types of ships (because GRRM is being borderline anachronistic).

Large scale battles between longships, we have several accounts of, mainly from the kings' sagas. They all seem to end up as massive entangled "fleets" of ships, on which battle is then fought, sort of like on a small floating island.

Certainly there was widespread use of missile weapons before the ships met, however, as we have from the "Konungs skuggsjaa" or "King's Mirror" (http://www.mediumaevum.com/75years/mirror/index.html), an excellent 13th century source:

"Weapons of many sorts may be used to advantage on shipboard, which one

has no occasion to use on land, except in a fortress or castle. Longhandled

scythes and long-shafted broadaxes, "war-beams "and staff slings, darts,:

and missiles of every sort are serviceable on ships. Crossbows and longbows

are useful as well as all other forms of shooting weapons; but coal and

sulphur are, however, the most effective munitions of all that I have named.

Caltrops cast in lead and good halberds are also effective weapons on shipboard.

A tower joined to the mast will be serviceable along with these and

many other defenses, as is also a beam cloven into four parts and set with

prongs of hard steel, which is drawn up against the mast. A "prow-boar":

with an ironclad snout is also useful in naval battles."

Clearly, this is later than the time of "true" longships, as they talk about towers, but I believe the weapons are still relevant.

That was insightful.

I figured in Westeros ships would ram a lot, exchange arrows and in the Ironborns' case prefer to actually board the ships.

One thing I would like to add:

There are qualities that could Stannis give the edge though: resolve, discipline and loyalty.

IIRC correcty Stannis' core fleet was loyal to him to the death, after all they stayed with him even though they were technically sworn to the crown. (GRRM mentioned that fact too I think). And Stannis' original men were the only ones who didn't bend the knee to Joffrey of all the captives taken in Blackwater. So he is certainly able to inspire a loyal base. If others joined his fleet that point would be moot though.

Euron would face the problem that he wasn't the Ironborn's king for that long and the Ironborn follow the philosophy that every captain is a king on his ship and is out for glory. This is ok when raiding in smaller fleets, but could get problematic in a large scale battle against a uniform fleet like Stannis'.

[Lord Reaver]

I figured in Westeros ships would ram a lot, exchange arrows and in the Ironborns' case prefer to actually board the ships.

That's pretty much how the "The Reaver" chapter goes, yes. Problem is, of course that against a ship with a higher deck and castles, this becomes problematic for the Ironborn.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I've already addressed this. Euron isn't the first King of the Iron Islands to command the entire Ironborn fleet in 2000 years.He is, however, the first to take the Shield Islands in that time.

And I want to know why.