Stannis or Euron: Who is the better naval commander?

[The Drunkard]

Stannis built and commanded the fleet that took Dragonstone. He decisively defeated the Iron Fleet in the Greyjoy Rebellion. He's spent the last fifteen odd years as Master of Ships. He seems to have studied military history, including that of naval battles, given his strong opinion about the naval battle at Planky Town during Dorne's conquest.

Euron planned the burning of Lannisport. Presumably he was involved in other successful battles during the GR. He planned the taking of the Shield Islands. He's spent the last ten odd years pirating around Essos.

Both are quite experienced and have some solid victories under their belt, but we don't have a lot to go on.

My take is that overall Euron's strength lies in manipulating the enemy as to not require any major battle. His attack on Lannisport was a complete surprise, and that allowed him to torch their entire fleet. His attack on the Shield Islands worked because he avoided being spotted by the Reach, and because he lured away their main defenses. His admittedly failed plan to take Oldtown was to infiltrate it via subterfuge and clear the way for his main force. I've seen it speculated (by Fire Eater, I think?) that he has another subterfuge plan to carry some boats above-land to take Oldtown from the rear. His general strategy for the Reach seems to be avoiding any straight fights, and striking when the 'greenlanders' have their pants down.

Stannis seems more willing to attack strongly fortified positions and numerically superior enemies head on, but he (usually) does everything he can to make the battle favourable for him, regardless of whether it's on land or sea (both give an insight into his broad strokes tactics). With the Iron Fleet, he positioned it in an advantageous spot and then went on to defeat the entire thing. With his attack on the wildlings, he utilized the shock value and discpline of his own troops, and capitalized on the disorganization of his enemy with loud trumpets, flaming arrows and constant war cries, and ended up defeating a vastly numerically superior force. A common speculation for the Battle of Ice has him taking on a better fed, better equipped, and more horsed enemy by positioning them in a weaker position, and potentially defeating them all.

I expect that in an immediate battle between the two, Euron would try to divert, scatter or avoid Stannis' fleet, so that he could attack when Stannis doesn't expect it. I expect Stannis would look to defeat Euron in a decisive battle, and attempt to position the two fleets in a way that benefits him. Though, as I said, there isn't a heap to go on; how Euron deals with the entire Tyrell fleet ought to be insightful.

In general I'd trust Stannis.

[Stormland's Fury]

Very good analysis.

And I agree completely that Euron's handling of the Redwyne fleet should show us what he's capable of.

[Frey Pie]

And when Dagon had destroyed the Redwyne Fleet and was pillaging the Arbor, he still didn't. The books are explicitly clear: The Shield Islands being fortified and reinforced by land is what's been deterring raiders from going up the mander these last 2000 years. Not the Redwyne fleet.

So the shield islands are stronger then the arbor?

[Lord Reaver]

Because they're generally been led by the likes of Balon or Victarion, who think only in terms of raids and plunder. Euron and Asha are literally the only Ironborn we've seen actually consider things on a strategic level.

Patently false. Balon planned his attack on the North strategically. The High Kings controlled most of the western part of Westeros. Did they take these without strategy ? Ridiculous.

[Lord Reaver]

So the shield islands are stronger then the arbor?

Defensively, when supported by the mainland forces, yes, clearly.

[Nictarion]

I wouldn't. I'd take Euron over anyone from the mainland, but he's clearly an exception - the Ironborn have traditionally been raiders who clearly have no time for little things like strategy or logistics.

I'd take Victarion as well. He's not as good with strategies and logistics as Euron is, but he knows the sea, his men, and his ships. Just like Stannis messed up by making a Florent his admiral at the Blackwater. Davos knows ships, and the sea better than anyone else Stannis had, he should have been admiral.

[Independent George]

Patently false. Balon planned his attack on the North strategically. The High Kings controlled most of the western part of Westeros. Did they take these without strategy ? Ridiculous.

He attacked the sole faction that supported his own political goal (independence of the Iron Islands), with no thought on how to hold his territories against the inevitable counterattack or long-term goals for his kingdom beyond continuing to raid and pillage.

Asha says as much in FFC, pointing out all the flaws in this plan (which Victarion intends to continue), and comes up with her own idea for maintaining a permanent presence on the mainland. It does not go over very well, because literally nobody else in the Iron Islands thinks that way.

[Lord Reaver]

He attacked the sole faction that supported his own political goal (independence of the Iron Islands), with no thought on how to hold his territories against the inevitable counterattack or long-term goals for his kingdom beyond continuing to raid and pillage.

This has been discussed for quite a bit in other threads, so all I'll say here is that you're wrong, and to consult those threads if you wish to know how exactly you're wrong.

ETA: Well, you're wrong about the strategy part. Politically, attacking the North AND crowning himself was probably a mistake, one driven by his hatred of the Starks and his pride. But once he'd taken his decision, his strategy was sound.

[Frey Pie]

He attacked the sole faction that supported his own political goal (independence of the Iron Islands), with no thought on how to hold his territories against the inevitable counterattack or long-term goals for his kingdom beyond continuing to raid and pillage.

Asha says as much in FFC, pointing out all the flaws in this plan (which Victarion intends to continue), and comes up with her own idea for maintaining a permanent presence on the mainland. It does not go over very well, because literally nobody else in the Iron Islands thinks that way.

You are quite correct.

In any case for the thread at large it's a tough one. Overall as a commander stannis is far beyond Euron. However on the sea they are more even. Euron has the sea in his veins, a natural talent and cunning, whereas stannis had learnt his stuff.

Stannis has defeated the ironborn before when they were led by Vic. Was euron three? I would presume so seen as he seems to have been around and fairly lively for the rebellion. Euron shows smarts at Lannisport and the shield islands while stannis knows how to use his resources and win a battle. Euron was opportunistic and used his enemies weakness. Stannis took them on one on one in a huge naval battle

Could go either way. I'd say with Vic onside euron but without him stannis

[Lord Reaver]

Stannis has defeated the ironborn before when they were led by Vic. Was euron three? I would presume so seen as he seems to have been around and fairly lively for the rebellion.

Doubful. Victarion would attempt to place the blame on him if he was there and/or in any way acting in a commanding role. Yet he acknowledges the defeat solely as his own.

Contrast it to how he in his mind tries to take all the glory for the sack of the Lannister fleet, while Theon knows better.

[Aegon the Great]

I'm edging towards Euron on this one.

[Frey Pie]

Doubful. Victarion would attempt to place the blame on him if he was there and/or in any way acting in a commanding role. Yet he acknowledges the defeat solely as his own.

Contrast it to how he in his mind tries to take all the glory for the sack of the Lannister fleet, while Theon knows better.

I'm not saying euron commanded at fair Isle. Euron has never commanded but has made two successful plans Which Vic has carried out. What I am saying is that it would be odd if euron, who has a powerful ship and a prestigious position, did not play some part at fair Isle. It was always likely to be the decisive battle of the war

If he wasn't there why and where was he?

[Lord Reaver]

If I was engaged in fleet on fleet naval battles or trying to take a city or fortress (rather than just sacking it as fast as possible) - Stannis

Please explain the difference between taking and sacking a city or fortress.

[Stormland's Fury]

Please explain the difference between taking and sacking a city or fortress.

Sacking is a lot of looting, raping and general chaos, simply taking it would be more organised although the raping and looting would most likely occur albeit it on a smaller scale. You can't sack a city without the looting and mayhem by definition.

One real life example would be the Rape of Nanking, where the Chinese surrendered and prepared for a taking by the Japanese because of the latter's reputation of being well disciplined. To their horror the city got sacked instead...

[Ürglõvi]

Euron's too much a batshit loose cannon to be reliably good comander. OTOH, he seems to have the Stormgod fighting in his corner, which must be more useful for naval commander than a god of fire? Dunno. :dunno:

The way I see it, Euron with his weirdass magic winds might defeat Stannis, but in a battle where analytical thinking, discipline and focus are in question Stannis has the advantage.

Of course, at the moment both of them seem to be down a navy....

[Lord Reaver]

Of course, at the moment both of them seem to be down a navy....

Euron still has the bulk of his navy. He only sent the Iron Fleet away.

[Jasta11]

For raiding, Euron.

For actual fleet-to-fleet battle, Stannis.

Plus, wasn't Euron at Fair Isle? Not as commander, but surely when the entire Ironborn navy is at war the brother to their King would be called upon if he was anywhere near reach. And he either fell for the same trap as Victarion, or failed to convince his brother not to fall for it.

Besides, I'm not entirely convinced that, whatever else his other faults, Victarion is a bad naval commander. If the man knows one thing, it's his ships. Besting him on the high seas is quite an acheivement methinks.

[Stormland's Fury]

For raiding, Euron.

For actual fleet-to-fleet battle, Stannis.

Plus, wasn't Euron at Fair Isle? Not as commander, but surely when the entire Ironborn navy is at war the brother to their King would be called upon if he was anywhere near reach. And he either fell for the same trap as Victarion, or failed to convince his brother not to fall for it.

Besides, I'm not entirely convinced that, whatever else his other faults, Victarion is a bad naval commander. If the man knows one thing, it's his ships. Besting him on the high seas is quite an acheivement methinks.

I asked it before, but I'm still curious: Is there any indication how good of captains/commanders Balon and Aeron were?

[Ürglõvi]

Euron still has the bulk of his navy. He only sent the Iron Fleet away.

My mistake then. :) Though one might doubt how much of Iron Islands' navy Euron could actually rely on, especially in encounter with Stannis, who ihas smashed the Iron Fleet itself in the past.

[Lord Reaver]

Plus, wasn't Euron at Fair Isle? Not as commander, but surely when the entire Ironborn navy is at war the brother to their King would be called upon if he was anywhere near reach. And he either fell for the same trap as Victarion, or failed to convince his brother not to fall for it.

This is, the entire Ironborn navy wasn't at Fair Isle. Only the Iron Fleet. And that is commanded by Victarion.