Tad Williams announces THE LAST KING OF OSTEN ARD, a sequel to MEMORY, SORROW AND THORN

[Jiriki]

Oh, by the way, could have Geloe been Sulis' witch-woman in TBM? Her name is never given, but she is called Valada like Geloe. I don't know whether people can live this long in this world but the thought crossed my mind.

The fact that both "Valada" (TBM) and "Valada Geloe" (TDC) live in the forest, are associated with owls, are both called "witch-woman", etc, stronly indicates that they are the same person.

As to Hakatri's journey into the West: Wasn't that also were the Gardenborn were coming from, i.e. were 'the Garden' was, or was that further in the east of Osten Ard? If I remember correctly they, too, came over the sea, right? So it would indeed be strange if Hakatri thought he could be healed there. But then, I assume we all know rather little about what actually triggered the Gardenborn exodus and all.

No the Gardenborn (Sithi, Norns, Dwarrows, Niskies, etc) came from the East, a land called Venyha Do'sae. The humans came from the west. Morgenes speculates that the Rimmersmen fled some cataclysm in Ijsgard, in the far west; similarly, the Gardenborn seem to have fled a cataclysm in the east, but theirs was thousands of years earlier, and involved conflict and Unbeing.

When the fool tells Simon the story of Prester John's victory of the Rimmersgard king, Simon asks him about the sons of that king, and he doesn't remember what happened to them. I always wondered whether either Skali or some of the Black Rimmersmen were descended from those guys, or whether such descendants would later show up.

Now that would make an interesting thread to pick up in TWC, for sure!

A short while ago I listened to the passage where the hunter guy plays dead man, and later reveals that he, as a mortal, was given his command by Utuk'ku herself (his description suggested that he was part-Norn, right?). Him being a Black Rimmersman suggests that there are some obvious connections and contacts between the Norns and the Rimmersmen, yet nobody seems to be knowing anything about that. For instance, Jarnauga was visiting the mountain for quite some time, so he would have to have seen if humans came and went. But from him we learned that most/all of the villages and settlements this far north are destroyed in the wake of the alliance with Elias - considering that the Black Rimmersmen would be living close to the mountain this seems somewhat weird. On the other hand, I don't know how many of them exist. The question was simply triggered by the fact that the average Aedonite Rimmersman as well as the average heathen (but not Norn friendly) Rimmersman would actually point out those weirdos in the utmost north as devil-worshipers and strange guys, which then should have led to their investigation by Isgrimnur and/or to a strong effort to convert them to the true faith.

I like how you think!

I think Isgrimnur has his hands full with just keeping his duchy operational, with Elias shutting down the Wealdhelm Road, the main supply road between Erkynland and Rimmersgard. Prior to Elias' reign, Prester John was deathly ill three years, so Isgrimnur couldn't have expected much support from John during those years, and likely even longer. Even prior to that, Isgrimnur could have heard of isolated heathen groups without being able to do much. Black Rimmergard is the area south of Nakkiga, with the map showing how mountainous the terrain is. I suspect any priests sent off to that wilderness would simply have perished, one way or another.

[Lord Varys]

Jiriki,

 

as to Geloe: Yeah, I thought that as well. Just wondered whether Valada was some sort of title for a witch-woman which could have made it more unlikely.

 

Yeah, just heard Jiriki telling from which direction they came from. Makes more sense - however, in that scenario it is not impossible that Hakatri went to a place in the west that's not identical with that Ijsgard the Rimmersmen come from. Could be some sort of big island like Iceland rather than a huge continent.

 

As to the Rimmersmen princes: Oh, then this is never elaborated on in the series? A pity, since I thought that might be a hint that the survivors of the royal line of Rimmersgard may have decided to team up with the Norns to get payback on Prester John and his ilk. One assumes that Ineluki and Utuk'ku were not exactly unprepared when Pryrates contacted them.

 

I assumed Prester John conquered Rimmersgard more or less in his youth or at least decades ago, which would then mean that Isgrimnur should have had a pretty good picture of his duchy by the time John died, not to mention that as a Rimmersman himself he should have known pretty much as much about 'Black Rimmersmen' as his fellow countrymen. Isorn and other Rimmersmen report all kind of crazy stuff about those guys and it is strange that an apparent minority can suddenly become this prominent and powerful. I know that they are backed by the Norns, but still...

 

Other stuff:

 

Leobardis has just been murdered by his own son. Was Leobardis the elder or the younger brother of Camaris? I didn't get that straight and I'm wondering why Camaris would have wielded the sword of the Nabbanai emperors if his brother was the elder? Unless Camaris gave up his claim to Nabban upon Prester John's victory, one assumes that Camaris and not Leobardis would have become Duke of Nabban, right?

 

Jarnauga has theorized that Ineluki and company aren't really alive anymore. Is their nature later elaborated upon? I must say I'd find it strange if they turned out t be something like 'living memories or dreams'. That wouldn't be very intimidating...

 

Oh, and since you seem to have contact to Tad occasionally:

 

Di you know or can you ask him in regards to 'Otherland' whether the copies of Felix Jongleur and the other Grail Brotherhood guys have actually been destroyed or deleted by the Other? I mean, the guy successfully invaded Jongleur's private system and messed with his mind when the satellite hit his tower, but Jongleur never got through to the copy stored in the Telemorphix files he wanted to activate. Thus we don't really know whether those copies are still there or not...

[Darth Richard II]

So, what's the deal with DAW these days? I keep seeing things referenced but can find no actual info.

[OlafK]

Tad has two upcoming online gigs for the Read for Pixels Fall 2015 Project.

 

An AMA reddit on August 30th and a Google Hangout Talk on September 4th. I am sure people will ask about this situation.

[Jiriki]

Jiriki,
 
as to Geloe: Yeah, I thought that as well. Just wondered whether Valada was some sort of title for a witch-woman which could have made it more unlikely.

It's quite possible, likely even, that "Valada" is a title. So we don't know 100% for sure if "Valada"="Valada Geloe", but it seems likely. We won't know for sure for another 1.5 years, now... Bah!
 

Yeah, just heard Jiriki telling from which direction they came from. Makes more sense - however, in that scenario it is not impossible that Hakatri went to a place in the west that's not identical with that Ijsgard the Rimmersmen come from. Could be some sort of big island like Iceland rather than a huge continent.

Yes, I think the same. No point in going to a continent full of a substance that's deadly to him. They (Hakatri and his servant) must have known of, or hoped for, other lands in the West besides Ijsgard.
 

I assumed Prester John conquered Rimmersgard more or less in his youth or at least decades ago, which would then mean that Isgrimnur should have had a pretty good picture of his duchy by the time John died, not to mention that as a Rimmersman himself he should have known pretty much as much about 'Black Rimmersmen' as his fellow countrymen. Isorn and other Rimmersmen report all kind of crazy stuff about those guys and it is strange that an apparent minority can suddenly become this prominent and powerful. I know that they are backed by the Norns, but still...

I don't think the Black Rimmersmen are at all prominent or powerful. The Rimmersmen of Kaldskryke (who invaded Hernystir and overthrew Isgrimnur's dukedom at Elvritshalla) are not Black Rimmersmen; they are, however, allies in this war. Skali's Kaldskryke-men are supposedly Aedonite, though they did some very un-Aedonite-like things on the battlefield... It's the coalition of Norns, Black Rimmersmen, and traitorous Kaldskryke-men that were able to overpower Elvritshalla while Isgrimnur was away. I doubt a rag-tag bunch of Black Rimmersmen alone could by themselves defeat the capital.
 

Leobardis has just been murdered by his own son. Was Leobardis the elder or the younger brother of Camaris? I didn't get that straight and I'm wondering why Camaris would have wielded the sword of the Nabbanai emperors if his brother was the elder? Unless Camaris gave up his claim to Nabban upon Prester John's victory, one assumes that Camaris and not Leobardis would have become Duke of Nabban, right?

TGAT indicates that Camaris is the elder. For the reason why Camaris does not rule, though he wielded Thorn, the sword of the Imperators, you'll have to keep listening. :)
 

Oh, and since you seem to have contact to Tad occasionally:
 
Di you know or can you ask him in regards to 'Otherland' whether the copies of Felix Jongleur and the other Grail Brotherhood guys have actually been destroyed or deleted by the Other? I mean, the guy successfully invaded Jongleur's private system and messed with his mind when the satellite hit his tower, but Jongleur never got through to the copy stored in the Telemorphix files he wanted to activate. Thus we don't really know whether those copies are still there or not...

You can email Tad himself. I can't guarantee a response, but he often has time for questions from readers, and indeed, he likes them. He's also on Facebook and occasionally his message board. Caveat: I'm not sure Tad will remember the answers to your questions after all these years. It's been a couple of decades since Otherland. But it can't hurt to ask.

[Jiriki]

So, what's the deal with DAW these days? I keep seeing things referenced but can find no actual info.

According to Diana Rowland, Penguin is doing all the promotion for DAW's biggest sellers, in exchange for a piece of the pie. If DAW wants a major promotional push, they have to play by Penguin's schedule. When I talked in person to Betsy Wollheim in November about The Witchwood Crown, she was so excited about the publication (excited enough to show me her Otherland tattoo). But Penguin Books will be promoting and distributing, so DAW's big sellers get pushed onto a schedule that is convenient for Penguin rather than DAW or DAW's roster of authors.

[Darth Richard II]

Ah, good old scheduling issues.

[Calibandar]

According to Diana Rowland, Penguin is doing all the promotion for DAW's biggest sellers, in exchange for a piece of the pie. If DAW wants a major promotional push, they have to play by Penguin's schedule. When I talked in person to Betsy Wollheim in November about The Witchwood Crown, she was so excited about the publication (excited enough to show me her Otherland tattoo). But Penguin Books will be promoting and distributing, so DAW's big sellers get pushed onto a schedule that is convenient for Penguin rather than DAW or DAW's roster of authors.

 

But even then, how in the world does it fall all the way back to March 2017?

If it was ready to go for a Spring 2016 date, any setbacks you would expect it to go to Summer, or Fall if they want it in the busy holiday season. But Spring 2017? Why? I hope we get an answer to that, even if it that answer will change nothing about the bad result.

[Brendan Moody]

A publisher as large as Penguin is going to have a very busy schedule, so it's not really surprising that the soonest they could give the book the promotion and distribution it deserves is Spring 2017. A year and a half from a largely complete manuscript to publication is pretty common in the industry, and despite being a huge seller overall Williams doesn't have the kind of immediate fanbase hunger that causes other epic fantasy writers to get rushed to publication.

[Jiriki]

But even then, how in the world does it fall all the way back to March 2017?
If it was ready to go for a Spring 2016 date, any setbacks you would expect it to go to Summer, or Fall if they want it in the busy holiday season. But Spring 2017? Why? I hope we get an answer to that, even if it that answer will change nothing about the bad result.

There is a bit more to the riddle that I suspect will be revealed in September.

[ylvs]

And it will be good news for a change.

[Jiriki]

And it will be good news for a change.

What Ylvs said.

[Calibandar]

A publisher as large as Penguin is going to have a very busy schedule, so it's not really surprising that the soonest they could give the book the promotion and distribution it deserves is Spring 2017. A year and a half from a largely complete manuscript to publication is pretty common in the industry, and despite being a huge seller overall Williams doesn't have the kind of immediate fanbase hunger that causes other epic fantasy writers to get rushed to publication.

 

Brendan, I don't agree with what you're saying here, based on my own experience following the industry and turnarounds.

 

This book had a ( fairly) completed manuscript for a little while now. Spring 2017 release date means you're looking at nearly two years, which is unusual, and very unusual for a prolific and popular author like Williams. I have not checked the data but I'm sure he's one of DAW's biggest sellers alongside someone like Rothfuss. The book was estimated to be published in Spring 2016 because that was deemed perfectly reasonable, and indeed it is, because somewhere between 10-12 months between submitting the manuscript and publication is quite common. Especially for more high profile authors like Williams. If you were talking about a debut author or slow seller you might have a point in saying that they have to wait for 2 years.

 

So I think what we've been told so far is true, that there have been unfortunate circumstances on the side of the publisher that lead to this significant delay. Let's not pretend that what is happening is business as usual.

[SpaceChampion]

Sounds like the date was moved to time it to draft off the publicity of something bigger, like a movie or TV series.

[Werthead]

A publisher as large as Penguin is going to have a very busy schedule, so it's not really surprising that the soonest they could give the book the promotion and distribution it deserves is Spring 2017. A year and a half from a largely complete manuscript to publication is pretty common in the industry, and despite being a huge seller overall Williams doesn't have the kind of immediate fanbase hunger that causes other epic fantasy writers to get rushed to publication.

 

Williams is an absolutely huge seller when it comes to epic fantasy, and especially a project like this. He's not a Martin-style phenomenon, no, but his sales are extremely respectable. Two years for an author of his stature is actually quite unusual.

 

As said above, this may be either down to internal power politics between Penguin and DAW, or more likely as part of this publicity issue for whatever is going to be announced in September.

[OlafK]

His German publisher confirmed today that the book is not on their spring 2016 schedule either. 

 

They have no information beyond that, so it is theoretically possible that if the ms is fully edited and good to go that his German publisher could publish in fall 2016. But I doubt it.

 

If there is a big international multi-country launch in spring 2017 they will want to capitalize on that.

[Brendan Moody]

Williams is an absolutely huge seller when it comes to epic fantasy, and especially a project like this. He's not a Martin-style phenomenon, no, but his sales are extremely respectable. Two years for an author of his stature is actually quite unusual.

His sales are much more than respectable in the long term, but they're not the kind of thing that's going to make Penguin clear the decks and rush to meet or approximate a date that was given to a few thousand fans on the Internet. Two years would be unusual, but since we're in August and the manuscript isn't quite finalized yet, we're actually talking maybe a year and a half, which is not shocking. It's on the long side, and it is quite possible that the last six months or so is purely because of whatever this vague-but-hyped announcement involves, but not really unusual. It takes someone who's going to make the bestseller list to get a real rush to publication, and Williams hasn't done that in over 20 years. A return to Osten Ard could very well change that... with the kind of full promotional cycle the book is now getting.

 

Edit: another factor, of course, is lead times. If Williams were likely to be delivering the series for one-per-calendar-year publication, there'd be more incentive to get book one out ASAP. But since he's more a one-every-two-or-three-years writer when it comes to epic fantasy, delaying book one a little will, as someone noted upthread, only reduce the gap between later volumes. By then, one hopes, there will be even more anxious, anticipatory readers than there are now.

[OlafK]

What Brendan said.

 

Tad recently said on Twitter that he will begin writing volume two, Empire of Grass, soon.

[OlafK]

Tad will read from THE WITCHWOOD CROWN on September 4th in a live Google Hangout. And also answer questions.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvIRME5vhyo

[Lord Varys]

Well, I've nearly finished TDC now, and a few new questions popped up.

 

1. Utuk'ku is pissed when Elias refers to Ineluki as her 'master' (or is it 'lord' in the original? - I'm listening to the German audio book). Is really the top dog in their relationship or does Elias get things wrong there? I'm asking because it was previously hinted at that Ineluki may have overtaken/subdued the Norns after he sought refuge with them. If he was actually controlling the Norns it could make sense that Utuk'ku also was forced to submit to him despite the fact that I'd not like that - you know, you don't have an evil Galadriel with a cool silver mask and then make her somebody's servant...

 

2. Has anybody ever tried to piece Elias' various steps to doom together? First Pryrates presumably contacts (or recontacts?) Ineluki/the Norns from the apartments in the Hjeldin tower. Then comes the comet in the night of the coronation. Later on Elias and Pryrates are visited by emissaries of the Norns traveling through air (?) presumably transferred by Ineluki's power or by one of his red cronies. The first part of the deal is done in the night at the stones, an important magical event. A sacrifice is required, and it seems that Pryrates either got Elias' permission and then erased that from his memory, or he decided to choose Josua as the sacrifice for some other reason. Is that ever clarified? The idea that Pryrates has this amount of power over Elias at this point is quite unsettling. Does anybody know what kind of substance Pryrates has Elias drink?

But, unlike I previously thought, giving Elias Sorrow did not yet complete the deal. Elias has to give up something else, to gain something instead. Presumably something that has to do with the Norns destroying Naglimund soon, but what is the nature of that part of the deal? Does anybody know that?

 

3. I get it that Elias originally wanted to make contact with his dead wife. But what came of that? Did Ineluki actually help with that at one point? And what was/is the purpose being Elias taking Sorrow? What does he think the sword can do for him? Surely nobody is giving him the real reason for the whole thing. During the siege of Naglimund he apparently tried to use it to make it rain. Was that what the Norns said it could do? Give you control over the weather? And why is Elias so keen to take Naglimund before his next 'ritual date' arrives? If I understood Utuk'ku correctly, Elias would have been effectively off the hook had he not contacted her and agreed to the demands. I understand that he will now use or accept Ineluki's help to defeat his brother but why couldn't he wait to accomplish that all by himself?

 

That's it for now. I guess I'll to join the hangout.