Queen Sansa Stark Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 "And not only did she SING to me, but then I TOOK a kiss from that little bird as well! Ha! She struggled at first, but then as i wriggled my tongue in her little beak, she sucked at it like a bird gets a worm! Kill me you wolf bitch!" ETA: and you know thats EXACTLY how thatd go down, I know my Sandor Clegane. :lmao: I could definitely hear Sandor say such thing if the kiss truly did happen. Personally I do think that the kiss happened, but only in the Hounds mind and Sansa saw it when she unconsciously warged him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myhousigilisthehousecat Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Unkiss- try saying that aloud, it flows together really nicely as one word that is neither "Un" nor "kiss" yet still both, like UNK-iss. Anyways, we all know that Sansa's optimistic (sometimes to the point of foolishness) and she's getting some shiny new puberty hormones. All of the real kisses that Sansa has ever had are unpleasant in their own unique ways (Tyrion, Littlefinger, Sweetrobin). She's probably just convinced herself that she had at least one kiss in her life with a guy who she was actually attracted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludo Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I do not deny that Sandor wanted to be killed by Arya. But his motive for wanting to be killed was remorse about the horrible things he had done in his life. He was confessing, he was being honest, he wouldn't lie to get what he wants in that state. I do not think that he kissed her back. I think Sansa kissing him made him realise what he was doing to her, and it was the turning point in his character development arc that led him to the quiet isle. I do not think it is possible to unconsciously warg a human being. Bran wargs Hodor while he is awake, but Bran's capabilities exceed those of other wargs as he is a/the greenseer. We see Varamyr warging a wildling women, and she screams and fights him although he has 6 animals he can control. He comments on the fact that Jon Snow is untrained in warging. It is something that obviously develops through constant training, which Sansa does not get. I think it wouldn't make sense for her to suddenly develop these extream powers without even consciously trying to do so. It appears like even the Bloodraven can only reach human minds when they are asleep and close to a weirwood. Neither is true for Sansa/Sandor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Sansa Stark Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 True, but we also have to keep in mind that both Sansa and Sandor were drunk. Plus he was also severely triggered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludo Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 True, but we also have to keep in mind that both Sansa and Sandor were drunk. Plus he was also severely triggered. Do you mean that the alcohol will make the warging happen, or that Sandor wouldn't be able to stop himself from raping her once she kisses him. If you ment the last: Sandor was drunk no matter how the unkiss happened. What do you think kept him from raping her after he had kissed her, or if one argues that the kiss did not happen, that Sansa imagined it, what kept him from raping her then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Sansa Stark Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Do you mean that the alcohol will make the warging happen, or that Sandor wouldn't be able to stop himself from raping her once she kisses him. If you ment the last: Sandor was drunk no matter how the unkiss happened. What do you think kept him from raping her after he had kissed her, or if one argues that the kiss did not happen, that Sansa imagined it, what kept him from raping her then? No what I mean is that Sansa being drunk made the possibility of her subconsciously warging Sandor more easier and Sandor being drunk and severely triggered made him more vulnerable of being warged by Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludo Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Ok? I do not remember a scene in the books where a person's magical powers were enhanced by alcohol consumption... I do not remember a scene where an animal/person is more easily warged because of alkohol either... But if this is true, Dany could try having a drink or two with her dragons, maybe they will obey her then...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Ok? I do not remember a scene in the books where a person's magical powers were enhanced by alcohol consumption... I do not remember a scene where an animal/person is more easily warged because of alkohol either... But if this is true, Dany could try having a drink or two with her dragons, maybe they will obey her then...? no no, youre missing the point. alcohol clearly enhances latent abilities, documented and confirmed. aerion brightflame is a clear indication of this, as it is known that wildfire is actually reduced absynthe. he clearly became a flaming dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 I do not think that he kissed her back. I think Sansa kissing him made him realise what he was doing to her, and it was the turning point in his character development arc that led him to the quiet isle. He didn't kiss her at all. She didn't kiss him either. It is Sansa's later recollection of the scene which includes a kiss. But we know that there was none because none happened in the contemporaneous rendition of the scene. I believe that the turning point for Sandor was the specific song that Sansa sang to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 He didn't kiss her at all. She didn't kiss him either. It is Sansa's later recollection of the scene which includes a kiss. But we know that there was none because none happened in the contemporaneous rendition of the scene. I believe that the turning point for Sandor was the specific song that Sansa sang to him. You damn right it was. It was mercy for a broken man. It was hope for a new day ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florina Laufeyson Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 I'm of the opinion that GRRM meant she is unreliable in her recollections, not her observations. This. Sansa is extraordinarily observant. Perhaps moreso that most characters. Shes one of those people who sees everything that happens around them. Just watches. But often, when it comes to remembering what happened, she puts her own spin on it. Not everything she recalls has this spin, but when it comes to matters of the heart, Sansa has some issues. Is this normal? Relatively, yes. However, in the case the OP is laying out, i dont think Sansa is misremembering anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endymion I Targaryen Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 She was drunk that night,she was frightened,he was near in kissing her and she was confused. Although i can't forget she has taken lessons from some of the worst characters (Cersei and LF) whose point of view is just what is convenient for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postholer Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 The UnKiss by Littlefinger had one purpose and one purpose only: to provoke Lysa. Littlefinger knew Lysa was watching. He knew it would send Lysa over the edge. He needed her out of the way to take control of Robert and the Vale to execute his plan. She poisoned Jon Arryn. She needed to disappear. Lysa saw Catelyn when she looked at Sansa. Lysa always (unrealistically) viewed Catelyn as competition for Peters love. Lysa went batsh*t. Sansa's narrative was one of an affectionate act. It wasn't that kind of a kiss. It was just a means to acquire the Vale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkSister Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 You mean after he impulsively cuts her friends face to the bone lol? Now who is unreliable? *facepalm* Joffrey lifted Lion’s Tooth and laid its point on Mycah’s cheek below the eye, as the butcher’s boy stood trembling. “That was my lady’s sister you were hitting, do you know that?” A bright bud of blood blossomed where his sword pressed into Mycah’s flesh, and a slow red line trickled down the boy’s cheek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Sansa Stark Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 The UnKiss by Littlefinger had one purpose and one purpose only: to provoke Lysa. Littlefinger knew Lysa was watching. He knew it would send Lysa over the edge. He needed her out of the way to take control of Robert and the Vale to execute his plan. She poisoned Jon Arryn. She needed to disappear. Lysa saw Catelyn when she looked at Sansa. Lysa always (unrealistically) viewed Catelyn as competition for Peters love. Lysa went batsh*t. Sansa's narrative was one of an affectionate act. It wasn't that kind of a kiss. It was just a means to acquire the Vale. Uhm... no Littlefinger didn't know that Lysa was looking or else grrm would have made Sansa subtly think to herself that Littlefinger looked behind him or over her shoulder to establish that he knew Lysa was watching them. Since that didn't happen should tell you that it was an impulsive act. Because if it was, as you say, a calculated plan than it is an extremely dumb one. Servants could have seen that forced kiss which would have blown up Sansa's cover and her identity would have been known. It possibly could have unleashed the wrath of Cersei on the Vale. On top of it that "genius"plan of Littlefinger almost. caused. the. death. of. Sansa and Lysa spilled the tiny detail that will bite him in the ass in the future. More importantly his claim as lord protector of Robert and the Vale is shaky at best. It would have been in his better interest if he kept Lysa around and made her tell the Lord Declarants he is the Lord Protector. To me that kiss established an important part to his endgame; he is obsessed with Sansa to the point he slipped up. This should tell us that his downfall is very near. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postholer Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Uhm... no Littlefinger didn't know that Lysa was looking or else grrm would have made Sansa subtly think to herself that Littlefinger looked behind him or over her shoulder to establish that he knew Lysa was watching them. Since that didn't happen should tell you that it was an impulsive act. Because if it was, as you say, a calculated plan than it is an extremely dumb one. Servants could have seen that forced kiss which would have blown up Sansa's cover and her identity would have been known. It possibly could have unleashed the wrath of Cersei on the Vale. On top of it that "genius"plan of Littlefinger almost. caused. the. death. of. Sansa and Lysa spilled the tiny detail that will bite him in the ass in the future. More importantly his claim as lord protector of Robert and the Vale is shaky at best. It would have been in his better interest if he kept Lysa around and made her tell the Lord Declarants he is the Lord Protector. To me that kiss established an important part to his endgame; he is obsessed with Sansa to the point he slipped up. This should tell us that his downfall is very near. What GRRM writes or doesn't is purely conjecture on your part. None of us know what he's thinking. Had the servants seen anything, they would have seen a father giving his daughter a kiss. Lysa saw Peter give the equivalent of Catelyn a romantic kiss. Conveniently, "the tiny detail" died with Lysa, no repercussions there. Agreed. Sansa was in real, yet unforeseen, danger from Lysa. If you wanna make an omelet... As stated in the book, Peter acquired 1 year as lord protector with the consent of the Lords Declarant. Also stated in the book, his intent is to marry Sansa (not Alayne) to the heir of the Vale, after Robert (presumably) dies (wont' happen). He has a solid, not tenuous, grasp on the Vale for 1 year at least. Nothing in the book suggests Peter is obsessed with Sansa. There is every reason to think Peter is obsessed with Catelyn. Peter is protecting Catelyns daughter, nothing more. Peter is a thriver and surviver. His character won't die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Nothing in the book suggests Peter is obsessed with Sansa. There is every reason to think Peter is obsessed with Catelyn. Peter is protecting Catelyns daughter, nothing more. Peter is a thriver and surviver. His character won't die. "He smiled, but his eyes did not." ***** Petyr ***** is not protecting Catelyn's daughter. He most definitely has nefarious intentions with her. Did you not read the rape/kiss scene? And I suppose saying for sure he will die/he will live are both equally useless statements, there's a decent amount of foreshadowing that Petyr will die. First, he is the lord of Harrenhal. He's doomed. Second, he could possibly be the stone giant that Sansa strikes down in the castle of snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 The UnKiss by Littlefinger had one purpose and one purpose only: to provoke Lysa. Littlefinger knew Lysa was watching. He knew it would send Lysa over the edge. He needed her out of the way to take control of Robert and the Vale to execute his plan. She poisoned Jon Arryn. She needed to disappear. Lysa saw Catelyn when she looked at Sansa. Lysa always (unrealistically) viewed Catelyn as competition for Peters love. Lysa went batsh*t. Wouldn't it have been much easier for LF to eliminate Lysa without provoking her in this way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newstar Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I've toyed with other theories, but at this point, I really doubt it's anything more than a fantasy reflecting Sansa's latent feelings for the Hound. No unconscious warging or other magic, no blossoming insanity, nothing to make us question everything else that Sansa's POVs tell her has happened, just an impressionable girl imagining that the man she has feelings for kissed her when he did not do so. The fact that she was drunk at the time was probably blurring her memory of the night a little as well so that her imagination could take over. Events or further revelations in TWOW could dismantle that, of course, but at this point, I don't see any need to make it more complicated than it is, absent some extremely compelling evidence that I'm just not seeing at this point. He didn't kiss her at all. She didn't kiss him either. It is Sansa's later recollection of the scene which includes a kiss. But we know that there was none because none happened in the contemporaneous rendition of the scene. GRRM has also come out and said that the kiss never happened, and I recall the way he said it seemed unambiguous to me as opposed to coy or vague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazfemur Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Poor Sandor. Sansa going around, spreading rumors she got into his pants, when in actuality he meant for it to be something special. *sigh* Highborn girls can be so cruel. When he denied it, she called him a slut and told all one of her friends (jeyne) how he loved it. Sandor: "All little birds are the same..." *tear* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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