Imry Florent did nothing wrong on the Blackwater.

[Maid So Fair]

1. There's men and men. Most armies are made of them. Stafford's army is exactly the same thing Tyrion could have made, with the exception that Tyrion would not have a dierwolf sniffing a secret goat track into KL, to scatter his host. His enemies would need to get over the walls first.

2. He had close to half a year. He sends hald the city watch to hunt and gather food. The cash, metal, and smiths he invests in the chain, and from the new tax on entering the city he pays for the wildfire.

3. By the time Tyrion arrives in the city, the city watch is 6,000 strong. Add the local knights, sellswords, and freeriders, and you have the ~7,000 men at the Blackwater already there. Tyrion added nothing to the city watch. He took out Slynt and some officers, and that is basically it. In the same chapter that Tyrion arrives to the Small Council for the first time, he hears how the smiths and armorers are making new weapons and armors, and carpenters are making catapaults and scorpions by the hundreds. The moment Tyrion diverts the metal to the chain, work on that stops. You have the few that were already there, and the three whore (which don't do much in the battle), and that is it.

4. Sure. But who the hell keeps 200% extra weapons and gear? Clearly, not the smiths of KL:

“I want every forge in King’s Landing turned to making these links and joining them. All other work is to be put aside. I want every man

who knows the art of working metal set to this task, be he master, journeyman, or apprentice. When I ride up the Street of Steel, I want to

hear hammers ringing, night or day. And I want a man, a strong man, to see that all this is done. Are you that man, Goodman Ironbelly?”

“Might be I am, m’lord. But what of the mail and swords the queen was wanting?”

Another smith spoke up. “Her Grace commanded us to make chainmail and armor, swords and daggers and axes, all in great numbers. For arming her new gold cloaks, m’lord.”

“That work can wait,” Tyrion said. “The chain first.”

5. ... Nope. First thing he does is plan against Stannis's fleet, while Renly is still alive. The chain is ordered when Renly is still marching from the south, and Stannis is still believed to be on Dragonstone. In Tyrion's next chapter he learns that Stannis has SE under siege, and Renly is racing to confront him. This plan is well before Renly is dead, and when he is still the larger threat by far. The Wildfire also costs money, and Tyrion asks about how Cersei is planning to pay for 10,000 jars - LF's new tax on refugees. Pyromancers don't do anything other than making wildfire, so they might as well, is like saying that tank plants make tanks, so they might as well make tanks. No shit. it still costs money, and you need to plan what you are going to prepare for, a land war where you would need those tanks, or a naval war where they would be fucking pointless.

The chain is not a make-or-break of the city's defense. A strong garrison can hold the city against both Stannis, and Renly, and buy time for Tywin to arrive. The wildfire was spent, and Stannis still had ships to cross with. It failed, it had no other option. It cost money and resources that could have been spent on other options.

1, Stafford's host is also easily dispersed by a battle-veterans like Robb has in his army, which is much the same thing that happens to the defenders of KL once Joffrey abandons the defences to go hide in the Red Keep and Stannis seems to be winning. The levies from Lannisport also have significantly more loyalty to the Lannisters than the residents of KL who openly hate them for sacking the city years ago. Even with the exisiting men it takes some pretty drastic actions on Tyrion's part to get the existing troops to play along. I'm not sure more people like these would have helped. 'Six thousand men and only a quarter of them could be relied upon.' They only hold as long as they seem to be winning so sending them into direct battle doesn't seem the best idea.

2, Fair enough. It did not seem quite so long to me when reading it but if everyone accepts that it was half a year then ok.

3, At least three massive catapults were in the play and since Tyrion never stopped other tradesmen (ie apart from smiths) from continuing to do their jobs it's likely there was more siege equipment as well. The fact they did not do much in battle is irrelevant since they were there to supplement the city defences so we know that the chain was just a part of the equation.

4, We don't know if Tyrion was in a position to double the city guard or if this would have worked. (see point no1)

5, For some reason, Lannisters seem to dismiss Renly so it's not just Tyrion thinking along these lines. Renly also seems to be taking his sweet time, preferring to starve the city out first. I think at the end of the day it boils down to facing the more imminent threat (which is perceived to be Stannis) and actually doing something that can make a difference. Tyrion knows he cannot match Stannis, let alone Renly, with the force of arms so he chooses to go for something he can actually do something about. As for wildfire, it is costly, and it ends up being used in the naval battle but it can be used against land-based enemies as well, if perhaps not nearly so effectively. It could have been employed in other context as well.

[Trigger Warning]

Is the Lannister fleet going to let scout ships row up to the wildfire ships and inspect them?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

3, At least three massive catapults were in the play and since Tyrion never stopped other tradesmen (ie apart from smiths) from continuing to do their jobs it's likely there was more siege equipment as well. The fact they did not do much in battle is irrelevant since they were there to supplement the city defences so we know that the chain was just a part of the equation.

And without metal parts, they could do jack shit.

Is the Lannister fleet going to let scout ships row up to the wildfire ships and inspect them?

Of course not. Stupid argument that gets brought up all too often for my taste.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

1. I agree save for a few points. If Roose had came conventionally he would be smashed by Tywin's superior army so he gambled but lost, unlike Robb who won most of his gambles. I don't recall any mentioning of Northern pikemen, and the only memory I have of archers are the Western longbows raining havoc down on the Northmen. And pikemen are all good but I've never heard of routed pikemen defeating pursuing horse.

2. Well, supposedly Clegane made it as far as Pinkmaiden and sacked that castle. Same with Stone Hedge so I would think the Lannisters forage over a considerbal distance. What I would add is that we should probably also keep in mind that Martin wants to tell a story and not hold a lecture on Medieval logistics. So its entirely possible that he took some liberties regarding that matter.

3. Does this mean that I can call plot armor on Robb Stark for Jaime being reckless and Stafford a fool, because it allowed Robb to win great victories? Same with Greywind just happening to find a path that the people actually living for dozens of generations in the land were in the dark about?

4. Zombies for the win!

5. Depends on. Cersei or someone else might have wanted to keep that part secret to not hurt public relations further. Stannis' actions and Boros humiliation seems to have been very public showing-offs by the people ordering them.

6. I don't think so. Tywin and Mace would still be vastly more powerful than Stannis. Mace would want Margaery to be a queen and Tywin would have a king for her to marry. And both Mace and Tywin would know that Stannis on the throne was the last thing would want.

7. Could be.

8. I' making guesses here but I would think he started the process when he started his march to meet up with Tywin.

9. Ok, I'll take your word for it.

10. Its very advantagous yes, but then agains George may have wanted to get rid of the Wildfire supplies to make sure people didn't start to ask about it. But given that the Wildfire didn't save King's Landing I wouldn't call it plot armor. More like plot convinience.

11. But the Seven outnumber R'hllor so he'll be beaten to a bloody pulp.

1. To be fair we know little about the composition of Roose's army, but we have seen plenty of northern archers (half of Cregan Karstark's army are archers, archers left at Twins and Moat Cailin) it is reasonable to assume a good proportion of the Stark foot were archers. Karstark men are referenced to have pikes, and northmen are said to have pikes a few more times, can't remember specifically, though. Westerosi generally use spears and pikes. And how exactly do you route men with 14ft spears with archers behind them raining arrows on you?

This point is that: Roose didn't even have to engage Tywin, just draw him north, plus Tywin was coming to him, so he could have picked the terrain to be to his advantage, a descisive victory would be nearly impossible, due to the lack of Stark horse and Tywin commanding from the rear, but Roose certainly didn't have to loose 4,000 men.

2. Wasn't Pinkmaiden and the other castles sacked before the Whispering Wood and Green Fork, when Tywin was advancing towards Harrenhal? We know that Darry was retaken (briefly) and though Darry is not included on canon maps, it would be quite close to Harrenhal. The fact that the Darry's were able to retake their seat at all shows most of Tywin's host was close to Harrenhal for most of the time.

3. I used the term "plot armour" rather loosely there, to be honest, I was speaking broadly of plot points in the favour of the Lannisters, it is sort of in character for Balon, though his entire character is him being a stupid old prick anyway. Both Jaime's and Staffords actions make sense in their own contexts; Tywin tells Jaime he is moving to attack Robb, so Jaime feels safe to hunt down Piper, and has to split up his men into 3 camps to besiege Riverrun, Jaime should have left behind more in the way of command, or sent someone else with less of his horse, Stafford was right to feel safe; the Golden Tooth is analogous to Moat Cailin or the Bloody Gate, he had no reason to believe Robb could get past it.

5. Like I said, could be either way, though characters often have a hard time stopping news from spreading.

6. Yes, but neither know that Tommen was not at King's Landing Myrcella is in Dorne, at this point Mace should be, rightfully, uncertain of his alliance with the Lannisters. Plus Rosby is not very far from King's Landing, Stannis may well get to him before anyone else does. Another thing to consider, much of Mace's foot are sworn to Lords and Knights fighting with Stannis, after he has taken the capital how long until many go over to him. The Tyrells expected to take Stannis in the rear and defeat him with few casualtie (which they did) and then aid the Lannister in their campaign against a failing northern kingdom, the Reach may well not have wanted a drawn out battle with Stannis, it may have been easier and less risky to bend the knee.

8. Not really an answer, Mace and his host are at Bitterbridge until Littlefinger convinces him to fight for Joffrey, he couldn't really have organised the building from where he was when there are no major towns on the Blackwater that he controls, if he spent so long building them why couldn't he just have marched to Stannis? (the only reason I can think of is that he felt he didn't have enough cavalry for the battle, but even that is a sketchy excuse)

10. That's a pretty good explanation I suppose, and "plot convenience" works well enough.

11. But they are but seven faces of one.

[Hand to King Davos]

The devil is in the details. Imry Florent had no good reason to send the entire fleet into the Blackwater, it was too many ships. The winch towers were unexpected, but he should have at least been aware. Also, they knew there was wildfire, they just didn't realize how much there was. Davos mentions how Imry warned them that some wildfire would be present, they just didn't expect enough to blow up the entire Blackwater.

And no matter what mistakes Davos may have made, which would have been a few I imagine, not realizing that there is a trap when the biggest and most important warships are missing is a pretty critical oversight.

Imry wasn't totally incompetent, he just made a few mistakes, and with the Tyrells joining Tywin that was enough to screw Stannis over.