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The Curious Case of The Dragon Prince and The Winter Rose 3


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Welcome to the 3rd iteration of our lightning fast thread The Curious Case of The Dragon Prince and The Winter Rose

This time around we are turning our focus to Dreams, Visions, Prophecies and other things Mystical involving either Dragons or Blue Roses.

Here are a few to get us started:

1. Dragon Dreams vs Jon Snow's Dreams

Dreams in spoiler tags.

Dragon dreams appear to be strictly Fire and likely south of the Neck or in Essos.

Dragon Dreams:

Dany-

Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon

Tyrion-

That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realise that his second head was weeping.

Jon's dreams appear to be strictly Ice involving the North and north of the Wall and stand out for being completely void of dragons.

Jon's Dreams:

Im walking down this long empty hall. My voice echoes all around, but no one answers, so I walk faster, opening doors, shouting names. I dont even know who Im looking for. Most nights its my father, but sometimes its Robb instead, or my little sister Arya, or my uncle.

Do you ever find anyone in your dream? Sam asked.

No one. The castle is always empty Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. Its black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I dont want to. Im afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but its not them Im afraid of. I scream that Im not a Stark, that this isnt my place, but its no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream.

When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves. There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.

Jon?

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only ...

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brothers face. Had his brother always had three eyes? Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow. He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Dont be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

And suddenly he was back in the mountains, his paws sunk deep in a drift of snow as he stood upon the edge of a great precipice. Before him the Skirling Pass opened up into airy emptiness, and a long vee-shaped valley lay spread beneath him like a quilt, awash in all the colors of an autumn afternoon. A vast blue-white wall plugged one end of the vale, squeezing between the mountains as if it had shouldered them aside Then he realized he was looking at a river of ice several thousand feet high. Under that glittering cold cliff was a great lake, its deep cobalt waters reflecting the snowcapped peaks that ringed it. There were men down in the valley, he saw now; many men, thousands, a huge host. Some were tearing great holes in the half-frozen ground, while others trained for war. He watched as a swarming mass of riders charged a shield wall, astride horses no larger than ants. The sound of their mock battle was a rustling of steel leaves, drifting faintly on the wind. Their encampment had no plan to it; he saw no ditches, no sharpened stakes, no neat rows of horse lines. Everywhere crude earthen shelters and hide tents sprouted haphazardly, like a pox on the face of the earth. He spied untidy mounds of hay, smelled goats and sheep, horses and pigs, dogs in great profusion. Tendrils of dark smoke rose from a thousand cookfires. This is no army, no more than it is a town. This is a whole people come together. Across the long lake, one of the mounds moved. He watched it more closely and saw that it was not dirt at all, but alive, a shaggy lumbering beast with a snake for a nose and tusks larger than those of the greatest boar that had ever lived. And the thing riding it was huge as well, and his shape was wrong, too thick in the leg and hips to be a man. Then a sudden gust of cold made his fur stand up, and the air thrilled to the sound of wings. As he lifted his eyes to the ice-white mountain heights above, a shadow plummeted out of the sky. A shrill scream split the air. He glimpsed blue-grey pinions spread wide, shutting out the sun

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as shed appeared.

2.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.... mother

If this blue flower represents Jon, why is there no dragon element?

Why would Jon be associated with filling the air with sweetness?

Could the blue flower actually represent Lyanna? Or someone/something else?

3.

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champions crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beautys laurel in Lyannas lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost

Could Rhaegar have had a different motive for crowning Lyanna other than love? Perhaps he was attempting to fulfill a prophecy?

4. Regarding the Prince That Was Promised prophecy...could Prince have originally meant Dragon? If so it would change how PTWP prophecy is intrepreted.

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Ahh, that was a simple statement of logic. You were claiming we could say X due to Y, which was not a logical equation. So I said we cannot say X, not meaning we can't examine the possibility of X, but that X is not a logical conclusion required by Y. It might be a possible conclusion, but it is not a required conclusion, so we can't logically say "if Y then X".

I was not claiming that. I said that's what it SEEMED like. If we can't even say that, about anyone of those instances, then I don't see how you can make the same claims about what Arthur Dayne, the White Bull and Whent could've and should've been doing and what we can take as a given concerning Jon's status because they didn't. It's not like Ned's fever addled dreams are the most reliable witness reports.

Maybe they weren't so up to date on all goings on as Ned's overdramatic dialogue implies? Maybe they didn't know where Viserys was headed? They were only sent to Dragonstone to begin with after the Trident, it would've been pretty hard to find out. Maybe they planned to leave for the Free Cities after Lyanna was good to move (or after that stopped being an issue which was soon).

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Following the link, I looked into the actual chat:



Q: Who recovered Rhaegar's corpse (if anyone did it) and where was he buried (if he was buried)?



GRRM: Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens. This has been fun, but time is passing and I have another long day tomorrow, and so I´m going to need to wind this up. Three more questions, and let´s close.



I can only conclude that GRRM avoided the answer.




I have often stated that in a world where people can switch faces, R+L=J is not as simple as it looks.


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With regard to Jon's dreams its worth making the point that dragons are conspicuous by their absence

In fact, offhand I can't recall an instance in which Jon dreams of

House Targaryen or anyone in it

The Red Keep

Anywhere south of the Neck

Valyria

Meanwhile, he frequently dreams of

Winterfell

The Stark crypts

The Kings of Winter

North of the Neck

The Wall

If he's a Targ, he certainly doesn't seem to dream like one.

"Their name ruled the North. But my name... is the North. Snow." -- Season Three Histories
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I have often stated that in a world where people can switch faces, R+L=J is not as simple as it looks.

Too true. It would be foolish for someone to post that the probability of R+L=J is 100%.

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Jon's dreams appear to be strictly Ice involving the North and north of the Wall and stand out for being completely void of dragons.

Do they? Do we see all of Jon's dreams? Might not some of them be not shown to us as being too obvious, or giving too much away?

Isn't there a strong hint in some of his dialog with Tyrion that he has had dreams about dragons?

I mean, just as an example, wasn't Jon usually Aemon the Dragonknight when he played fantasy with Robb?

2. If this blue flower represents Jon, why is there no dragon element?

Must every piece of symbolism cover all aspects of the thing being symbolised?

Wouldn't adding dragon elements give away too much here?

3. Could Rhaegar have had a different motive for crowning Lyanna other than love? Perhaps he was attempting to fulfill a prophecy?

Most definitively. Love is not even slightly suggested by the text at that time, thats just something romanticists have added, that doesn't actually make sense.

At that stage Rhaegar appears to be working on his prophecy plan, the three heads of the dragon, with Elia. Aegon isn't born until 9 months or so after Harrenhal, and its not until Aegon is born that Rahegar has any need to look elsewhere.Mr Famously Dutiful has a purpose and a plan, why would he even be looking at another woman at that time.

Its more than clear Lyanna was the KotLT though. That's why he awarded her the crown. She did something noble, hnourable and noteworthy, but due to Aerys' paranoia couldn't be recognised for it. Rahegar was assigned to find the KotLT and it should have been trivial to do so for an smart cookie like him investigating. All he has to do is talk to the three squires whose masters were publically told to teach them honour in lieu of extremely expensive penalties and he'll soon figure out what that was about, and therefore who/where to go looking for the KotLT.

I suggest he found the KotLT. I suggest he had great admiration for her and her actions. I suggest he honoured her for that, because there was no other way he could honour her.

I suggest that later, when Elia was unable to have a third child, his mind turned to that bold, brave, honourable northern girl, ice to his fire. I suggest he fell in love with her after that, not at Harrenhal. Dutiful, above all.

4. Regarding the Prince That Was Promised prophecy...could Prince have originally meant Dragon? If so it would change how PTWP prophecy is intrepreted.

In any Valyrian version, definitely.

It's not like Ned's fever addled dreams are the most reliable witness reports.

I think it is like Ned's dream is reliable. The fever parts are clear. The dream is an old dream, repeated and familiar, so in general not fever ridden. The fever parts are where it segues into wierd shit, like storms of rose petals and blood streaked sky, and thats the same time when it confuses real life with dream - Lyanna never calls to him (she wouldn't call him Lord Stark), its Vayon Poole trying to wake him intruding into the dream.

With regard to Jon's dreams its worth making the point that dragons are conspicuous by their absence

I'm not so sure they are - we just don't get to see them (that would give away far too much). There's that conversation with Tyrion, and his favourite fantasy hero.

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Do they? Do we see all of Jon's dreams? Might not some of them be not shown to us as being too obvious, or giving too much away?

Isn't there a strong hint in some of his dialog with Tyrion that he has had dreams about dragons?

...I'm not so sure they are - we just don't get to see them (that would give away far too much). There's that conversation with Tyrion, and his favourite fantasy hero.

Ah, no. The conversation with Tyrion doesn't hint at dragondreams:

..."Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's reated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. "I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No," Jon Snow said, horrified. "I wouldn't..."

"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow. "Well no doubt the Starks have been terribly good to you..."

Tyrion isn't speaking about visions in his sleep but about daydreams and revenge fanatasies and that's what he accuses Jon of having too, not dreaming at night of dragons.

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2. If this blue flower represents Jon, why is there no dragon element?

Very good question… Why not 'Red Dragon's Breath'? (a flower that blooms in the God's Wood of Meagor's Keep?

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Titan's Bastard Quote From Previous Thread:


Except GRRM does not evade the question. If he wanted to be coy he could have simply said something along the lines of "It is Targaryen tradition to cremate their dead."

I am not surprised at all that you interpret this exchange as not being an evasion… GRRM is smart, and this reply was definitely planned & rehearsed, & is probably even an engineered response that was designed by a Public Relations or Communications expert. This was likely the best response he had for this question, but I would imagine that he has other variations up his sleeve that he can utilize should such a question take place near the beginning of an interview instead of close to the end ("only time for 3 more questions"). The entire interview might have been manufactured by GRRM so that he could get this answer on record in the Public Realm, reducing the risk of him having to dodge the question in the future…

GRRM is smart & he obviously takes this series & the associated secrets very, very seriously...

Now you propose "If he wanted to be coy he could have simply said something along the lines of "It is Targaryen tradition to cremate their dead."

ASOIAF Fans would quickly (immediately) realize that the reply "It is Targaryen tradition to cremate their dead;" does not answer the question… Such a response would immediately signal "GRRM is hiding something with regards to RT's Death"… & that is something he would not want to happen.

So, your suggestion of being 'coy' does not cut it, nether does his more common responses of "Keep Reading" or "I'm not going to answer that"… Both of which are dead-giveaways that GRRM is hiding something.

If GRRM truly wanted to protect this secret, then he gave the very best answer possible. It's also worth mentioning that he did so without lying to his readers.

--

When interpreting GRRM's statements, one has to be prepared to done their thinking-cap...

--

So many people on this site are always so quick to say "What? Crazy Twist & Turns in ASOIAF? No Fucking way, GRRM just would not do that"… People who think like this are idiots.

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Ah, no. The conversation with Tyrion doesn't hint at dragondreams:

..."Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's reated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. "I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No," Jon Snow said, horrified. "I wouldn't..."

"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow. "Well no doubt the Starks have been terribly good to you..."

Tyrion isn't speaking about visions in his sleep but about daydreams and revenge fanatasies and that's what he accuses Jon of having too, not dreaming at night of dragons.

Jon has had daydreams about the Red Mountains of Dorne and Valyria. It just wasn't a revenge fantasy.

In his later dream, before fighting the wildlings he dreams of fire, not literal dragons:

"Stand fast," Jon Snow called. "Throw them back." He stood atop the Wall, alone. "Flame," he cried, "feed them flame," but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow, " an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared. The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …"

What I find interesting is that he's issuing an order to use flame against the attackers. If the NW had a dragon,I could see how that one would play out.

They are also being attacked with flaming arrows.

There's an odd line, "as the dead men reached the top of the wall, he sent them down to die again." It seems from later in the passage, where he dreams that he kills Noye, Follard, Halfhand and Robb, that he's killing familiar men; or maybe he pictures the wildlings as wights? There's not as much to support that reading.

Then there's this little matter of Jon "armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist." What are we to make of this?

Before he goes about his day, the rest of the passage after he wakes is as follows:

"… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow, " the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom. The day had come. It was the hour of the wolf. Soon enough the sun would rise, and four thousand wildlings would come pouring through the Wall. Madness. Jon Snow ran his burned hand through his hair and wondered once again what he was doing. Once the gate was opened there would be no turning back. It should have been the Old Bear to treat with Tormund. It should have been Jaremy Rykker or Qhorin Halfhand or Denys Mallister or some other seasoned man. It should have been my uncle. It was too late for such misgivings, though. Every choice had its risks, every choice its consequences. He would play the game to its conclusion. He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn, " the bird said, and, "King, " and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow. " That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall."

And of course, much has been made of the raven's last line.

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I sure don't mind twists. But having twist for twists sake gets annoying.

IMHO GRRM has crossed the line. There are too many unresolved mysteries, too many hidden agendas, and too many deaths that aren't, including dead people walking around.

Basically, it has degenerated into a War of the Roses history lesson enriched with werewolves, zombies and dragons.

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I sure don't mind twists. But having twist for twists sake gets annoying.

IMHO GRRM has crossed the line. There are too many unresolved mysteries, too many hidden agendas, and too many deaths that aren't, including dead people walking around.

Basically, it has degenerated into a War of the Roses history lesson enriched with werewolves, zombies and dragons.

Martin has certainly shown himself willing to employ deliberate ambiguities, false clues and red herrings so far. Not sure I'd say he's crossed the line - they're his books, after all - but it does leave me hesitant about drawing conclusions based on symbols and "foreshadowings." Until he reveals solutions to his mysteries, I'm not confident we (readers) are entirely capable of resolving them ourselves.

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Jon has had daydreams about the Red Mountains of Dorne and Valyria. It just wasn't a revenge fantasy.

In his later dream, before fighting the wildlings he dreams of fire, not literal dragons:

"Stand fast," Jon Snow called. "Throw them back." He stood atop the Wall, alone. "Flame," he cried, "feed them flame," but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow, " an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared. The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled "

What I find interesting is that he's issuing an order to use flame against the attackers. If the NW had a dragon,I could see how that one would play out.

They are also being attacked with flaming arrows.

There's an odd line, "as the dead men reached the top of the wall, he sent them down to die again." It seems from later in the passage, where he dreams that he kills Noye, Follard, Halfhand and Robb, that he's killing familiar men; or maybe he pictures the wildlings as wights? There's not as much to support that reading.

Then there's this little matter of Jon "armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist." What are we to make of this?

Before he goes about his day, the rest of the passage after he wakes is as follows:

" and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow, " the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom. The day had come. It was the hour of the wolf. Soon enough the sun would rise, and four thousand wildlings would come pouring through the Wall. Madness. Jon Snow ran his burned hand through his hair and wondered once again what he was doing. Once the gate was opened there would be no turning back. It should have been the Old Bear to treat with Tormund. It should have been Jaremy Rykker or Qhorin Halfhand or Denys Mallister or some other seasoned man. It should have been my uncle. It was too late for such misgivings, though. Every choice had its risks, every choice its consequences. He would play the game to its conclusion. He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn, " the bird said, and, "King, " and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow. " That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall."

And of course, much has been made of the raven's last line.

I would not call that a Dragon dream" its a dream that had fire in an expected contextual sense in comparison to real life events that occured.He is fighting Wights with the the that kills them,a real experience he had.The burning sword is also something he encounterd with Stannis of course and all the talk if him being AA.

Jon also has a savior complex which is going to bite him in the arse even more.That dream also shows the isolation and self inflicted burden of that belief that it is always him alone .The most interesting thing is him in an armor of ice.

But comparing his dreams to Dany's now hers are Dragon dreams.Which is not the same as dreaming about Dragons or about fire.

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Martin has certainly shown himself willing to employ deliberate ambiguities, false clues and red herrings so far. Not sure I'd say he's crossed the line - they're his books, after all - but it does leave me hesitant about drawing conclusions based on symbols and "foreshadowings." Until he reveals solutions to his mysteries, I'm not confident we (readers) are entirely capable of resolving them ourselves.

That's what makes it so dangerous to pile assumption on top of assumption and foolish to state assumption as fact.

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Jon has had daydreams about the Red Mountains of Dorne and Valyria. It just wasn't a revenge fantasy.

In his later dream, before fighting the wildlings he dreams of fire, not literal dragons:

"Stand fast," Jon Snow called. "Throw them back." He stood atop the Wall, alone. "Flame," he cried, "feed them flame," but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow, " an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared. The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled "

What I find interesting is that he's issuing an order to use flame against the attackers. If the NW had a dragon,I could see how that one would play out.

They are also being attacked with flaming arrows.

There's an odd line, "as the dead men reached the top of the wall, he sent them down to die again." It seems from later in the passage, where he dreams that he kills Noye, Follard, Halfhand and Robb, that he's killing familiar men; or maybe he pictures the wildlings as wights? There's not as much to support that reading.

Then there's this little matter of Jon "armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist." What are we to make of this?

Before he goes about his day, the rest of the passage after he wakes is as follows:

" and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow, " the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom. The day had come. It was the hour of the wolf. Soon enough the sun would rise, and four thousand wildlings would come pouring through the Wall. Madness. Jon Snow ran his burned hand through his hair and wondered once again what he was doing. Once the gate was opened there would be no turning back. It should have been the Old Bear to treat with Tormund. It should have been Jaremy Rykker or Qhorin Halfhand or Denys Mallister or some other seasoned man. It should have been my uncle. It was too late for such misgivings, though. Every choice had its risks, every choice its consequences. He would play the game to its conclusion. He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn, " the bird said, and, "King, " and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow. " That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall."

And of course, much has been made of the raven's last line.

A daydream isn't a dream and that isn't a dragon dream if that's what you're getting at bro.

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