The Curious Case of The Dragon Prince and The Winter Rose 3

[Metopheles]

Lyanna: "It's okay, Dad. Rhaegar's explained it all to me. It's legal for the Targaryens to take multiple spouses. And he and Elia don't really love each other anyway, plus she's barren. (..I mean they can't even have sex any more because she could die if she gets pregnant again.) Plus I love him. So it'll be fine!"

Har! amazing. professional author here ? :D

I mean, I am with Rickard here, with seeds like these (robert) you already know how your children will look like. Kinda like we have to do today with genetic generator computer high tech wahtever, he simply had to look Bob the builder in the eyes..literally.

Wouldn't the polygamy be one heck of a court thing ?

Rhaegar"Martell..Martell..Martell..do we have enough martell support ? I think I have to marry another gal, what you think, wife 1-5 and husband 3-5 ?"

husband2 "Don't want my opinion here ?!"

all : NO!!

Think of how easy it would be to join all the houses. It could be done with one generation. Though Maester's Ink would run out easily whenever they write letters to each other with their whole name

Lyanna Stark-Targaryen-Martell-Greyjoy-Lannister-Baratheon-Tully-Arryn

[Rill Redthorn]

Har! amazing. professional author here ? :D

I mean, I am with Rickard here, with seeds like these (robert) you already know how your children will look like. Kinda like we have to do today with genetic generator computer high tech wahtever, he simply had to look Bob the builder in the eyes..literally.

Wouldn't the polygamy be one heck of a court thing ?

Rhaegar"Martell..Martell..Martell..do we have enough martell support ? I think I have to marry another gal, what you think, wife 1-5 and husband 3-5 ?"

I'm published non-fiction. Haven't tossed my hat in the fiction arena yet. (Haven't fallen in love with one of my own worlds enough yet to let other people into it, heh.)

The "Marry one of everyone to keep the nation together" has been done in numerous Asian countries in the past. I remember watching "The King and I" and thinking, when Anna Leonowens is acting all shocked that King Mongkut has hundreds of wives, that she doesn't get that this was how they kept Siam together -- the King married one woman from each important family in order to give them all a share of the power. And it worked out pretty well for them too!

Don't knock it until you try it, is what I guess I'm saying.

[Starks Among Us]

People see:

1. What they want/expect to see

2. What they are capable of seeing

She could have hidden in some manner.

Agreed!

What did Syrio teach - look with your eyes? You're looking but you're not seeing....

Not to mention - the north is remote, how many people from the south have ever really seen Lyanna, let alone know her well enough to match her face with a name...

[King Benjen II]

Agreed!

What did Syrio teach - look with your eyes? You're looking but you're not seeing....

Not to mention - the north is remote, how many people from the south have ever really seen Lyanna, let alone know her well enough to match her face with a name...

Good question. I can't imagine many would possibly know what the Stark look actually looks like.

Let alone a 14 year old female version of the Stark look.

[Metopheles]

I'm published non-fiction. Haven't tossed my hat in the fiction arena yet. (Haven't fallen in love with one of my own worlds enough yet to let other people into it, heh.)

The "Marry one of everyone to keep the nation together" has been done in numerous Asian countries in the past. I remember watching "The King and I" and thinking, when Anna Leonowens is acting all shocked that King Mongkut has hundreds of wives, that she doesn't get that this was how they kept Siam together -- the King married one woman from each important family in order to give them all a share of the power. And it worked out pretty well for them too!

Don't knock it until you try it, is what I guess I'm saying.

I can only repeat it. Monarchy has great things to it. It only has to be a good monarchy. Let's marry Hillary Clinton, the next president, to Prince Harry, to unite these old foes ;)

Humans are polygamous by nature, why hide it ? Rather use it. But by doing this, one should not become misogynist in any direction. Marry men and women and turn the Monarchy in Polyarchy. Like a small council.

[Hrafntýr]

I think she must have disappeared less than a week before Brandon's infamous ride to the Red Keep, which was perhaps a month or two prior to the beginning of Robert's Rebellion.

I could be wrong, but I think there might be some fuzziness about the start of that "about a year" that the Rebellion lasted. I mean, does it start right when Jon Arryn calls his banners? When Ned is fighting his way out of the Vale to get back north? Or more like when everyone has called their banners? From the first battle? I think there's a big gap of time in there, if you look at where everyone was traveling in order to muster troops. Which would then mean that Lyanna and Rhaegar were disappeared for more than the year plus two months of rebellion plus two months of Brandon's ride and the summoning of the fathers to the KL.

Yes, but there's the "disappearance," and then there's the disappearance. In other words... Brandon stormed the Red Keep because someone told him Lyanna was no longer where she was supposed to be (and Rhaegar was at fault). But WE (Martin's readers) don't even know where Brandon thought Lyanna was supposed to be. We are doubly ignorant. For Ned and the other Starks, Lyanna disappeared for "almost a year." For us, she goes missing after the Harrenhal Tourney - and doesn't turn up again until Ned dreams of finding her at the tower of joy. (So, is that a 2 year disappearance... or a 15 year disappearance?)

Well said.

Who witnessed or took part in Lyanna's unwilling abduction or consensual flight by or with Rhaegar Targaryen? Because no one so far has been a witness OR party to the event, or at least it hasn't been mentioned in their POV. So it seems that the number of people who actually saw this is extremely limited at least concerning the highborn POVs we get.

This is a really great point. And it could be that one of our sources might know one of the persons who was with Lyanna at the time of her "abduction" and that this knowledge informs his or her reporting. For example, if she were at Winterfell, maybe someone there actually witnessed an honest-to-gods abduction and gave his or her firsthand report to Ned (though does Ned ever use the term abduction? Oh you folk who seem to know every line of the books, do tell!). But then again, maybe we just haven't yet happened upon one of those companions.

What is still missing : Why the hell didn't Rhaegar or Lyanna return and stop the rebellion? Did Lyanna run away because she feared getting married off to Robert? Or did she run away, then saw his attempt to save her and feared she would then be married off to this brute?

I think we could look into that. Lyanna's way. What if she was the one that started it all. Her idea. We only go with Rhaegar being the culprit.

This is a great question, truly. What are Rhaegar and Lyanna thinking during this time? Are they just too busy trying to make dragons? Weird.

ETA: I almost forgot: Rill Redthorn, your reconstruction of the goings on at Winterfell were magnificent!

[wolfmaid7]

Indeed. That's the assumption I make while floating my "Stoney Sept Peach" crackpot. The best evidence that Jon is not Robert Baratheon's son is that "the seed is strong." Otherwise, the idea that Robert could be Jon's father would look like a rather attractive alternative hypothesis to the usual R+L. (Not saying Lyanna was actually in Stoney Sept... just saying it's about as likely as anywhere else - we just don't know.)

There's that for sure,be seen but not recognize.Danm girl could have been anywhere. I just find it hard that she was there the entire time at the Tower.

Yes, but there's the "disappearance," and then there's the disappearance. In other words... Brandon stormed the Red Keep because someone told him Lyanna was no longer where she was supposed to be (and Rhaegar was at fault). But WE (Martin's readers) don't even know where Brandon thought Lyanna was supposed to be. We are doubly ignorant. For Ned and the other Starks, Lyanna disappeared for "almost a year." For us, she goes missing after the Harrenhal Tourney - and doesn't turn up again until Ned dreams of finding her at the tower of joy. (So, is that a 2 year disappearance... or a 15 year disappearance?)

Ian't it amazing how it's always someone telling and we never know who the "someone" or "they" are.

I know, and I've thought all that too. I'm sure everything he says isn't "just so", but I would think that if the married prince, who was seemingly decent friends with some of the KG knights, started up a long distance romance with a highborn lady who wasn't his wife, eventually one of the other KG knights would hear whispers about it and come to logical conclusions based on things he observed himself. He's not infallible, or God, and of course he could interpret things incorrectly, but he is in a position to have seen things that many others involved in the story could not have, and he is a bit older than some of them so has enough life experience for me to think his interpretations wouldn't be far off course.

Do I think he has some misinformation? I do, because I don't think his knowledge of the fate of Ashara Dayne is 100% precise.

But why would her name fall from Rhaegar's lips upon his death had he not loved her? (I do think it was her name.) I mean, that's intensity.

Re: taking advantage of a child, wasn't Lyanna about 16 when she died? And Rhaegar around 23/25? I don't really think that's a huge age difference in Westeros at all. To be honest I don't think for some people that's a huge age difference in our society now.

Re: Does Jon Connington know about Jon, and Rhaegar's involvement with Lyanna? I don't think so. So far in the novels he was not at Rhaegar's side during the rebellion. Plus one would believe that sometime during his POV while he is thinking about Rhaegar/Elia/Aegon, he would mention the other woman and her son.

Re: Could Lyanna have been at Griffin's Roost? I highly doubt it. For the reasons above but particularly for tactical reasons this is a bad move. If the Storm Lord wants something, you really don't put it right within his reach. But, there's no way to know for sure.

Re: Is Jon named after Jon Connington? It's possible certainly. But, there's no way to know for sure.

Re: Lyanna's whereabouts. There's no textual indication of where Lyanna was, or who she was with, after the Tourney at Harrenhall, and before her abduction. It hasn't been mentioned where she was "abducted" from, or in what manner, at all. It could have been anywhere from Winterfell to Harrenhall. Though this does allow for a question though...

Who witnessed or took part in Lyanna's unwilling abduction or consensual flight by or with Rhaegar Targaryen? Because no one so far has been a witness OR party to the event, or at least it hasn't been mentioned in their POV. So it seems that the number of people who actually saw this is extremely limited at least concerning the highborn POVs we get.

There are dozens of scenarios that could have occurred but for both tellings to be possible and not crumble to dust upon scrutiny, I would imagine that the event would have had to be witnessed by almost no one. Since most of the POVs we get in "usual" circumstances (pre-war, at court, daily life at a castle) indicate that a lord's daughter wouldn't necessarily be all by her lonesome frequently, I would think a consensual flight would require some pre-planning. I also think this might be difficult to pull off, especially for Rhaegar as I doubt the contents of his raven correspondence was safe. So how would they plan this? An intermediate party? The only ones I can think of, who make any sense with what we know thus far, are Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Howland Reed, and Benjen Stark. And to truncate the list, I can't see Dayne doing this for several reasons, not least that he's from Dorne and this is more than slightly offensive to Elia and their people, and I can't see Howland Reed doing it because it's rather a sneaky and dishonorable thing to do. So that leaves us with Oswell and Benjen. Benjen was just a boy but we've seen other kids as messengers so I don't really count him out... plus it could lend creedance to his taking the Black after all was said and done. But Oswell is the wildcard and arguably the most able to act in this capacity.

Now, if the event was not conspired prior to its occurence, then either Lyanna really was abducted unwillingly, or was quickly convinced to fly off into the sunset with Rhaegar.

The short version is, we really don't know definites about this event, or who Lyanna was with prior to it.

However, we do know she was in captivity for about a year after her abduction or flight, so she had to have gotten pregnant within that timeframe... and I'd argue that since she was either hidden or in hiding, she would not have been in contact with very many people. From what we've seen in the books getting a captive around unnoticed isn't so easy. Of course, both Lannister brothers are highly recognizable. But why wouldn't Lyanna be? She was crowned Queen of Love and Beauty at a major tournament. I would think the less people who saw her, the better. And if he was with her, Rhaegar would have had to be nearly invisible too as he must have been extremely recognizable.

ETA:

JNR beat me to that punch it seems. Seems like we think along the same lines there. Cheers! :cheers:

Added to all this, Rhaegar was MIA during the same time, named the Tower of Joy, and has been said to have loved Lyanna. Out of all the possible fathers for Jon, if he's Lyanna's son, I would say Rhaegar is really the most likely possibility as much as we don't know all of the logistics, places, and names involved.

It serves the most purpose in the story.

What would the purpose of Mance, Arthur Dayne, or anyone else being Jon's father be in the story?

Why would Ned keep his parentage from him? Why would Ned make promises to Lyanna, if they are about Jon, if these men fathered him? Dayne was dead. Mance could be easily dealt with. Why would he keep it from Cat all those years? What is so important that he kept his sister's secrets even though it damaged his own honor?

Just about the only scenario that makes any sense in that regard other than the Rhaegar thing is that Lyanna had a son born of Aerys or incest. It's, you know, gross and awful when the Targaryens don't do it. And the timeline doesn't support either of those situations.

This again is where we delve into the realm of speculation,we have no idea what name he whispered. Why be cryptic about it as a writer if we the readers might obviously guess it's Lya. Which means it's equally possible that it's not.My problem with this is that a relationship 'meaningful' that is cannot be textually determined. He shows up the tourney and profess his love infront of everyone to someone you don't know;knowing that tounges will wag. It seems this was a caluclated move by R to plant some seed.

I would say that he took advantage of her,to go back to my prior point his move seemed calculated.Why in order to bring about some prophecy.That is not love and i will say this can we say that Sansa truly loved Joffrey. Hell even Cat said that with time she grew to love Ned.

Nah R was driven alright but not by love for Lyanna.

What is still missing : Why the hell didn't Rhaegar or Lyanna return and stop the rebellion? Did Lyanna run away because she feared getting married off to Robert? Or did she run away, then saw his attempt to save her and feared she would then be married off to this brute?

I think we could look into that. Lyanna's way. What if she was the one that started it all. Her idea. We only go with Rhaegar being the culprit.

Check this,and i will cite the show. Remember when Loras crowned Sansa the quenn of love and beauty,then when she reminded him later about that he had no clue what she was talking about. Wasn't all the girls goo eyed when Loras walked out,what if that's what happened.He gave the laurel to some random Northern girl in order to get Northern support to dipose his father.Lyanna engaged to Robert and wanting a way out could have slipped away in disguised and ended up with R unbeknowgst to him and by then shit had hit the fan,it was to late. R got accused of kidnapping. I know long shot again

Right. And on top of that, you have to consider the possibility that Brandon heard something that wasn't necessarily true. Who told him Lyanna had gone missing? Where did that information come from? Was Lyanna actually missing? Or was somebody yanking strings, dealing in misinformation, manufacturing conflict? In other words... where was Petyr Baelish at the time?

:dunno:

I don't think that's crazy at all, I think that's smack on the money. Lyanna instigated the whole thing.

I believe it's stated that Lyanna "went missing" after Rhaegar paid a visit to Winterfell -- as in, he went there on a state visit of some kind, the he left, and when Rickard Stark when looking for his daughter, she wasn't there any more. Since Rhaegar had impulsively proclaimed his love for Lyanna with that wreath of blue roses at the Harrenhal tourney, "She left with Rhaegar's entourage, either willingly or unwillingly" seemed like a perfectly reasonable conclusion for Rickard Stark to draw. So he gets some of his people together and rides south to try and catch up with that group, encounters Brandon, tells Brandon what's up, and Brandon, being the hothead that he was, decides he's going to deal with the situation by storming into Aerys' throne room and making wild accusations and calling for the head of the Crown Prince. Brandon was the "wild wolf", after all, who always thought he knew exactly what needed to be done, and acted on it.

I envision dialogue running like this (with a contemporary flavor):

(Scene: Back in Winterfell after the Harrenhal Tourney at some point. Rhaegar and Lyanna have been exchanging letters and are completely smitten with each other. Rhaegar has suggested to Lyanna that he could take her as a second wife as the Targs used to do. Lyanna is okay with this -- probably he's been telling her all about the prophecies and how his three Targaryen Dragon children are going to save the world together, and she's gotten caught up in his obsession.)

Lyanna: "Dad! Great news! Crown Prince Rhaegar wants to marry me -- your grandchildren will be royal, isn't that great? He's coming to Winterfell to make the offer official!"

Rickard: [Long pause.] "Lyanna dear, that's a child's fantasy. He's already married. He can't possibly set aside Elia of Dorne. I'm sorry. I'll find you another match with a good man who will make you happy, I promise."

Lyanna: "It's okay, Dad. Rhaegar's explained it all to me. It's legal for the Targaryens to take multiple spouses. And he and Elia don't really love each other anyway, plus she's barren. (..I mean they can't even have sex any more because she could die if she gets pregnant again.) Plus I love him. So it'll be fine!"

Rickard: [Longer pause.] "Lyanna. You are my only daughter. You are not going to marry a bigamist, even if he is the Crown Prince. We are Starks. We follow the Old Ways."

Lyanna: "But...Dad...I...he...we really love each other. I mean, like really. I'll be Queen, Dad! Sort of. It's like Aegon with Rhaenys and Visenya! I'm Visenya of course. She was kickass."

Rickard: "We are not discussing this any further! You go right to your room, young lady, and I don't want to hear one more word about this!"

Lyanna: "But...Dad! SO NOT FAIR!" [Runs out.]

(Later, also in Winterfell. Rickard visits his daughter, who hasn't been speaking to him all week.)

Rickard: "Lyanna, dear. I've been thinking about that...matter...we talked about last week, and I've decided you are right, it's time you were wed..."

Lyanna: "Oh Dad, thank you so much! We'll be so happy together!"

Rickard: "...Let me finish. Wed, yes. To a good man, from a good family, with excellent prospects. Your brother's best friend, Robert -- remember him? You met him when you visited Ned in the Vale? Tall boy, handsome, excellent build, great laugh? -- he's made an offer for your hand and I've accepted it. You'll be wed within the year."

Lyanna: [blank stare] "...Robert?...You mean, Robert Baratheon?"

Rickard: "Yes, the heir to the Storm Lands. You and the children will never want for anything. It's a good match and will cement the friendship between our noble houses."

Lyanna: [still staring blankly]: "Robert? The boy the whores of the Vale call Old Faithful and My Retirement Plan and the Single-point Buck? The boy who got drunk and ran through the Eyrie with a dog in his arms, kissing her and hollering "Mine is the Furry!" ? THAT Robert?"

Rickard: "Well, ah, yes...I understand he is ...ah...high-spirited. And...vigorous. But at least we know he can give you children!"

Lyanna: [Muttering] "Rhaegar will give me children. Royal dragon children. Prophesied Hero Children."

Rickard: "What was that??"

Lyanna: "...Nothing. Dad, I don't want to marry Robert Baratheon! I'd rather die!"

Rickard: "It's already settled. I'm the Stark in Winterfell and I call the shots around here. It's really for the best, dear. You'll be happier this way."

Lyanna: [silence.]

(Later: Rhaegar visits Winterfell to ask for Lyanna's hand.)

Rhaegar: "Lord Stark, I realize this is an ....unusual...offer. But I make it in good faith. I have had my maesters examine the laws, and there is precedent. It will be a legal marriage. My children with Lyanna will be royal dragons, Princes and Princesses, the boys in line for the succession to the Iron Throne right after my firstborn, Aegon."

Rickard: "Ah, well, it's a very...ah...generous offer, Prince Rhaegar, and of course I mean no disrespect to the royal family, but you see....Lyanna's hand is already spoken for. She will be marrying Robert Baratheon before the year is out. It's been signed and sealed. I'm very sorry you came all this way for nothing."

Rhaegar: [blank stare] "Lyanna and ...Robert? ...My cousin Robert? The one who has given an entirely new meaning to the term stag party? That Robert?"

Rickard: "Yes. It's settled. Enjoy the hospitality of my castle for the night, please, Prince Rhaegar." [Muttering] "Which does not include my daughter. And don't let the portcullis hit you in the butt on your way out, either."

(Later that night, in the guest quarters, there's a knock at Rhaegar's window.)

Lyanna: "Rhae! It's me! Let me in, it's cold out here!"

Rhaegar: "Lyanna, what are you doing out on the window ledge?"

Lyanna: "Dad posted seven Septas at my door to keep me in my room tonight. None of them can climb worth a damn. Look, Rhae, you have to get me out of here. He wants me to marry Robert!"

Rhaegar: "I heard. That's...unfortunate...but he is your father. I can't really go against his wishes. I'll write some more letters but --"

Lyanna: "Just get me out of here!"

Rhaegar: "Uh...what?"

Lyanna: "I packed my stuff. I don't need much. I've got my plain riding clothes on and my horse is saddled. I'll just blend in with the tail of your retinue when you head out tomorrow. It'll be easy."

Rhaegar: "Uh...With Dad's illness getting worse and the political situation so tricky I'm not sure that's a good --"

Lyanna: "Rhaegar, I love you, I really do, but for once could you not overthink?!"

Rhaegar: [sighs] "Yeah, okay, I can't deal with the idea of you and Robert together either. Every time he visits King's Landing he makes jokes about me being The Prince Formerly Known as Prince and asking me if I plan to have a purple reign...like I haven't heard that a hundred times before. Not that it was funny the first time either. But...I have a really bad feeling about this."

Lyanna: "Oh, you have a bad feeling about everything, Rhae. Just kiss me, okay?"

----------

...Or something like that. :cool4:

:bowdown: :rofl:

Agreed!

What did Syrio teach - look with your eyes? You're looking but you're not seeing....

Not to mention - the north is remote, how many people from the south have ever really seen Lyanna, let alone know her well enough to match her face with a name...

:agree:

[Metopheles]

This is a great question, truly. What are Rhaegar and Lyanna thinking during this time? Are they just too busy trying to make dragons? Weird.

Rhaegar : Ugh..hold.hold still! Damn.. that's..ugh.. all leathery and dried up and god is that sticky.. and eeww look how the skin wrinkles and all.. that is not how I imagined it would look.. and I just put it there ? And then? Then the thing here uh hu..

Lyanna : Rhaegar just put the effing thing on and be done with it!!!

Rhaegar : Ok.... So does this look like a dragon now ? With...faantaasyyy ? yaaa... could fool the people..

[while gluing wings on lizards they just caught to make them look like dragons, what did you think!?] :D

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

I would say that he took advantage of her,to go back to my prior point his move seemed calculated.Why in order to bring about some prophecy.That is not love and i will say this can we say that Sansa truly loved Joffrey. Hell even Cat said that with time she grew to love Ned.

Nah R was driven alright but not by love for Lyanna.

Sounds awful speculative

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Rhaegar : Ugh..hold.hold still! Damn.. that's..ugh.. all leathery and dried up and god is that sticky.. and eeww look how the skin wrinkles and all.. that is not how I imagined it would look.. and I just put it there ? And then? Then the thing here uh hu..

Lyanna : Rhaegar just put the effing thing on and be done with it!!!

Rhaegar : Ok.... So does this look like a dragon now ? With...faantaasyyy ? yaaa... could fool the people..

[while gluing wings on lizards they just caught to make them look like dragons, what did you think!?] :D

:lol:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If Robert had found and had sex with Lyanna in that timeframe, surely he would have said so, right?

If Jon had been Robert's son, Ned wouldn't have feel the need to hide him. Robert would be more than happy to raise their child.

Re: Does Jon Connington know about Jon, and Rhaegar's involvement with Lyanna? I don't think so. So far in the novels he was not at Rhaegar's side during the rebellion. Plus one would believe that sometime during his POV while he is thinking about Rhaegar/Elia/Aegon, he would mention the other woman and her son.

Jon wasn't near to Rhaegar when the kidnapping/whatever happened to know their reasons and but he was definitely in KL after Brandon and Rickard died, being Hand of the King (unless he received all of his orders via letter) and I'm pretty sure everybody heard Brandon's motivation to be there and all the exaggerations that provoked. Also, at that time, it was already common knowledge of Rhaegar and Lyanna being missing, I suppose.

Whatsoever, when he's telling about Rhaegar and Elia in "The Griffin Reborn", he didn't mention Lyanna at all. Considering that it's a paragraph full of heartbroken statements, he could have said something like "and then, he's said to have run away with a Northern girl". He's either on denial, he was probably the only person who never knew anything or no one actually knew about it in KL. The last one is quite odd for me and the second one is a bit improbable. He was a closed friend of Rhaegar (or so said Barristan) and he was pretty much in love. Why wouldn't he ask people what exactly happened and why was Rhaegar missing? No soldier, no servant, not handmaid, no one could have said "people said he is hiding with Lyanna Stark"?

[Metopheles]

Check this,and i will cite the show. Remember when Loras crowned Sansa the quenn of love and beauty,then when she reminded him later about that he had no clue what she was talking about. Wasn't all the girls goo eyed when Loras walked out,what if that's what happened.He gave the laurel to some random Northern girl in order to get Northern support to dipose his father.Lyanna engaged to Robert and wanting a way out could have slipped away in disguised and ended up with R unbeknowgst to him and by then shit had hit the fan,it was to late. R got accused of kidnapping. I know long shot again

That is amazing.

Lyanna "hey there, rayray, wanna go with me?"

Brandon,( in the background) "RHAEGAR !!! WHERE IS MY SISTER!!!!!!!"

Lyanna "We have to go, now!!"

Rhaegar "Who are you again?"

Brandon "I WILL KILL YOU!"

Rhaegar "What the fuck!?"

But in all seriousness, it could be. Though, why not kill your father with poison ? Silently without any need for a war?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I could be wrong, but I think there might be some fuzziness about the start of that "about a year" that the Rebellion lasted. I mean, does it start right when Jon Arryn calls his banners? When Ned is fighting his way out of the Vale to get back north? Or more like when everyone has called their banners? From the first battle? I think there's a big gap of time in there, if you look at where everyone was traveling in order to muster troops. Which would then mean that Lyanna and Rhaegar were disappeared for more than the year plus two months of rebellion plus two months of Brandon's ride and the summoning of the fathers to the KL.

.

Good point there, yourself. When Davos speaks with the Lord of Sisterton (Borrell?), he's told that Ned Stark was there on the island "at the dawn of the rebellion" - right about the time that Robert and the Vale forces defeated the loyalists at Gulltown. So I think you'd have to date the start of the rebellion with Jon Arryn's refusal to turn over his wards to Aerys (his "defiance").

Depending on how long it took Brandon, and then Rickard and the other fathers, to get to King's Landing - and adding enough time for Aerys to roast them all, then to send out his demands that Ned and Robert be arrested - that certainly extends Lyanna's reported "disappearance" beyond the "almost [1] year" the war was said to have lasted at the time of the Sack. Maybe quite a bit.

.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That is amazing.

Lyanna "hey there, rayray, wanna go with me?"

Brandon,( in the background) "RHAEGAR !!! WHERE IS MY SISTER!!!!!!!"

Lyanna "We have to go, now!!"

Rhaegar "Who are you again?"

Brandon "I WILL KILL YOU!"

Rhaegar "What the fuck!?"

:lol:

[King Benjen II]

Rhaegar : Ugh..hold.hold still! Damn.. that's..ugh.. all leathery and dried up and god is that sticky.. and eeww look how the skin wrinkles and all.. that is not how I imagined it would look.. and I just put it there ? And then? Then the thing here uh hu..

Lyanna : Rhaegar just put the effing thing on and be done with it!!!

Rhaegar : Ok.... So does this look like a dragon now ? With...faantaasyyy ? yaaa... could fool the people..

[while gluing wings on lizards they just caught to make them look like dragons, what did you think!?] :D

HAHAHAHA :D

[wolfmaid7]

That is amazing.

Lyanna "hey there, rayray, wanna go with me?"

Brandon,( in the background) "RHAEGAR !!! WHERE IS MY SISTER!!!!!!!"

Lyanna "We have to go, now!!"

Rhaegar "Who are you again?"

Brandon "I WILL KILL YOU!"

Rhaegar "What the fuck!?"

But in all seriousness, it could be. Though, why not kill your father with poison ? Silently without any need for a war?

I mean serously are we assuming that R and L had some love affair prior and then at the tourney he made it known...Hell no. I think R was fixing to make some big moves politically.

Rheagar's thoughts: Now let me give this here Laurel to the Stark girl and the Northen Lords will be like,this dude aint pompous like the rest of the dragons.Catch more flies with honey. My father won't know what hit him.hehhehehe.

Northern Lords: He gave roses to a Northern girl,i like him he's personable i can share a beer with him.He's got my vote

Southern Lords: Gasp why does this girl from out in the boonies get roses

HIgh born Ladies: Oh snap, no he didn't.

Lyanna:Oh my gosh RayRay hit on me.

Rheagar: Why is she crying?

[King Benjen II]

I think it plausible Rhaegar could have followed the Starks back to Winterfell from Harrenhal or wasn't more than a few weeks behind them. Lyanna either went with him willingly or not. It then could be said Lyanna damn near didn't stop moving until right before Ned shows up at ToJ. Especially over land Winterfell to Dorne.

Or Winterfell to a ship and landed at/near Starfall. Gathers a few allies and moves around Dorne frequently until arriving at ToJ at the end just before Ned.

Either could plausibly take up 1 1/2 to 2 years.

But Who? Where? How?

[Starks Among Us]

I'm on the LF tipping Brandon off theory.

[Metopheles]

I'm on the LF tipping Brandon off theory.

I also think it likely, but I always got arguments against it, calling him too young and not in the position for it. Though I think it would be plausible.

The only thing I think it, He did not count on the usurpers to win. He likely hoped they would all perish.

But yes, I give LF that. That is so like him. He did it again. With the dagger. Same scenario

[JNR]

I could be wrong, but I think there might be some fuzziness about the start of that "about a year" that the Rebellion lasted. I mean, does it start right when Jon Arryn calls his banners? When Ned is fighting his way out of the Vale to get back north? Or more like when everyone has called their banners? From the first battle? I think there's a big gap of time in there, if you look at where everyone was traveling in order to muster troops. Which would then mean that Lyanna and Rhaegar were disappeared for more than the year plus two months of rebellion plus two months of Brandon's ride and the summoning of the fathers to the KL.

There's fuzziness.

We don't know how much time was involved for all of these stages:

1. Lyanna's disappearance

2. Brandon finding out and riding to the Red Keep

3. Rickard being summoned to the Red Keep

4. Rickard showing up (from where?) and getting burned

5. Jon Arryn receiving a raven summoning Robert and Ned, and deciding instead to call his banners

What we do know is that the Rebellion subsequently lasted about a year.

Rhaegar's return "from the south" to King's Landing probably happened a fair amount of time prior to the end of the Rebellion, of course, because he had to lead the loyalist forces to the Trident, then get killed, and then more time had to pass for the Lannister forces to show up at King's Landing and sack it.

My guess is Lyanna's total time of disappearance was ~14 months, Rhaegar's more like ~10-11 months.