The Curious Case of The Dragon Prince and The Winter Rose 3

[horizon]

So, due Bran's remark at Osha we can derive that not only Robert hated Rhaegar but possibly the entire north did.

And then Robb declared Jon his follow up. Yeah... son of Rhaegar. Lord Commander of the Nightwatch, presumed dying.

[Starks Among Us]

Bran does not indicate in any way how he came to learn that story, but I highly doubt it came from Ned even as a cover story. Somehow I can't see Ned sitting down with the family going...

"It was all over your aunt Lyanna. She accepted his crown of roses and that scum fool stole her away and didn't take no for an answer. And that's why you never take flowers from strangers, kids. You'll be raped and die of a rape fever. But don't tell Rickon yet. He's not old enough. Maybe when he's two."

Obviously, the official story is Lyanna was taken against her will. Do the maesters tell kids she was raped? Probably not. It's probably the whispered gossip throughout the castle, much like the Ashara Dayne rumors Cat heard, which Ned also did not partake in.

Bran and Arya are the climber and the underfoot so I'm sure they're both privy to a lot of the castle gossip.

Additionally, I thought it was Edric Dayne whose nickname is Ned. Jon's "milk brother." Darkstar's name is Gerold. Are all the Daynes nicknamed Ned?

I'm not being sarcastic I'm seriously asking. Did I miss that or am I wrong completely?

I've always wondered why people think Ashara Dayne tipped off Ned or had things to do with the Lyanna scandal or was besties with Elia and Rhaegar. Or is Lemore. Because here's what seems to me to have occurred with Ashara...

At Harrenhall: Dances with dudes including Ned. Probably sleeps with Brandon. Gets knocked up.

At KL: Brandon dies. Ashara sad. Gets dismissed because she's knocked up. Goes home.

At Starfall: Has baby. Unclear whether baby is dead or alive because stories are conflicting. Baby is probably dead.

No known movement except GRRM says she wasn't nailed down in one place. Maybe she visits High Hermitage. Maybe she goes for walks.

At Starfall: Receives Ned and Howland. Gets Dawn. Gets news Arthur is dead. Reportedly flings self off tower.

Also at Starfall: Wylla who was probably hired to feed the baby. Ends up feeding Jon Snow.

Now... even with one kid nicknamed Ned I think this could indicate that the Daynes have an affinity for Ned Stark after the events that unfold at Starfall. Why, if he was on the other "side", and killed Arthur?

Why allow him also to take Wylla to Winterfell for his sister's child?

Was this because he returned a sword? He killed their knight. Why like Ned so much? Sure it's honorable to return Dawn but this is weird.

Now, suppose Edric gets the castle gossip like Bran does. So at Starfall the story is Wylla is Jon's mother. If Wylla was AT Starfall then wouldn't the others at the castle know if she was pregnant or not? So for this to work, if Jon is Lyanna's, and that to be a rumor, Wylla would have had to not be at Starfall prior to Jon's birth. What's the theory on this? That she was at ToJ on a loaner for Rhaegar from Starfall then returned with Jon when Lyanna got sick? That's the only way for the story to go around Starfall no matter which lady, Ashara or Lyanna, birthed Jon. Because wouldn't Wylla also have a baby if she's the wet nurse? If people think Jon is hers, then where is her baby?!

There are THREE babies in this situation. Lyanna's, Ashara's, and Wylla's.

Barristan claims Ashara's girl was stillborn.

The story at Starfall seems to be that Jon is Wylla's baby.

Many of us contend that Jon is Lyanna's baby.

If we are right, where is Wylla's baby? Unless she was simply at the ToJ and traveled with Ned and Howland to Starfall, then onto Winterfell, her baby is missing too. Think about it. She returns to Starfall because she nurses Edric. Why return to Starfall if you were not from Starfall to begin with, and how does the castle believe a baby is yours if you weren't pregnant prior to its appearance?

These questions have confused me at the moment. They leave me with possibilities like

Jon is Brandon and Ashara's.

Jon really is Lyanna's.

Jon is Ashara's and Aegon is Lyanna's who Ashara spirited away.

Aegon is Ashara's and Jon is Lyanna's who Ned spirited away.

Wylla's baby is really the one that died in that situation.

Lyanna's baby died. She begs Ned to make sure Ashara and Brandon's baby, Jon, is cared for out of guilt for his death. (I find this unlikely as she had fear in her eyes until Ned "promised".)

I want the new book.

But in any case... I don't know that I believe Ashara had an affinity for Ned Stark and ravened him about Lyanna. PERHAPS since Lyanna got sick, and Starfall was stuck with her kid, they thought they'd better alert family, but even then, if the Daynes are Targaryen loyalists, friends to Rhaegar, why bring a rebel to your doorstep?

Why go to such lengths?

Wylla's baby may have died or outgrown the need for nursing years ago. So long as Wylla was feeding a baby she would keep producing milk. Some women were wet nurses for years. And we've seen with Lysa that even within the story a woman can nurse up to six years.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

No more speculative than assuming that prior to the Tourney R and a 14 girl had a secretive relationship and he professed said love to her even though we have no evidence prior to that.Hey but people routinely declare love for individuals they don't know.

"14 year old girl" her age means nothing.

[King Benjen II]

So, due Bran's remark at Osha we can derive that not only Robert hated Rhaegar but possibly the entire north did.

And then Robb declared Jon his follow up. Yeah... son of Rhaegar. Lord Commander of the Nightwatch, presumed dying.

Maybe. I caution that Jon is not the only baby in the equation and still has yet to have a single hint of association to Fire in the books.

[horizon]

Maybe. I caution that Jon is not the only baby in the equation and still has yet to have a single hint of association to Fire in the books.

Burned hand. :dunno:

[King Benjen II]

Burned hand. :dunno:

:D

[Frey family reunion]

Here's a wicked thought:

Perhaps Lyanna did originally go willingly to Rhaegar (following her impulsive wolf's blood).

However what followed after that was anything but consensual. Maybe Rhaegar did rape her, or perhaps he had another rape her, maybe Oswell Whent from the black Whents who may have been skinchangers on the maternal side. Lyanna was then kept under guard to make sure she did not abort the pregnancy.

Finally Eddard found her as she lay dying on the birth bed. And the last thing she said to him was "Promise me Ned, promise me you'll kill the child". And Eddard being the anti child killer that he is (see his vote on the small council concerning Dany and her unborn) can't bring himself to do it. Instead he takes Jon up north.

Jon's dreams taking him back to Winterfell's crypts are perhaps his subconscious trying to find the ghost of his mother. Perhaps if he finally has this encounter she will turn to him and tell him "It should have been you".

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

"14 year old girl" her age means nothing.

I disagree. For Lyanna, 14 years of age was too young for marriage.

(ETA: But sometimes, when posting from a phone, grammar means nothing.)

[Metopheles]

Here's a wicked thought:

Perhaps Lyanna did originally go willingly to Rhaegar (following her impulsive wolf's blood).

However what followed after that was anything but consensual. Maybe Rhaegar did rape her, or perhaps he had another rape her, maybe Oswell Whent from the black Whents who may have been skinchangers on the maternal side. Lyanna was then kept under guard to make sure she did not abort the pregnancy.

Finally Eddard found her as she lay dying on the birth bed. And the last thing she said to him was "Promise me Ned, promise me you'll kill the child". And Eddard being the anti child killer that he is (see his vote on the small council concerning Dany and her unborn) can't bring himself to do it. Instead he takes Jon up north.

Jon's dreams taking him back to Winterfell's crypts are perhaps his subconscious trying to find the ghost of his mother. Perhaps if he finally has this encounter she will turn to him and tell him "It should have been you".

Isn't Jon's life miserable enough ? Can't he get any shred of love ? :'D

But I don't buy that. Sure, Rhaegar wanted Lyanna for her blood, but rape... that does not fit the Rhaegar I know.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Here's a wicked thought:

Perhaps Lyanna did originally go willingly to Rhaegar (following her impulsive wolf's blood).

However what followed after that was anything but consensual. Maybe Rhaegar did rape her, or perhaps he had another rape her, maybe Oswell Whent from the black Whents who may have been skinchangers on the maternal side. Lyanna was then kept under guard to make sure she did not abort the pregnancy.

Finally Eddard found her as she lay dying on the birth bed. And the last thing she said to him was "Promise me Ned, promise me you'll kill the child". And Eddard being the anti child killer that he is (see his vote on the small council concerning Dany and her unborn) can't bring himself to do it. Instead he takes Jon up north.

Jon's dreams taking him back to Winterfell's crypts are perhaps his subconscious trying to find the ghost of his mother. Perhaps if he finally has this encounter she will turn to him and tell him "It should have been you".

Now that would be a nasty twist. :stunned:

[horizon]

Heh,

now imagine, Jon is back to life. He gets told he happened because of some nasty Targaryen stuff. He becomes Night King v2.0 and then sees Aegon & Dany Targaryen in the south. Perhaps a third dragon rider.

The Winter will come down on Westeros as we all know that one Ice Dragon can take down fire Dragons. And then perishes.

Ah bittersweet. And all foreshadowed by George in an old tale of him. ;)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

So, due Bran's remark at Osha we can derive that not only Robert hated Rhaegar but possibly the entire north did.

And then Robb declared Jon his follow up. Yeah... son of Rhaegar. Lord Commander of the Nightwatch, presumed dying.

I think the North's part in the rebellion was driven primarily by the fact that Aerys murdered Lord Rickard and his heir, then called for the head of the next in line. If Lyanna's disappearance was widely known at that point, then it starts to look like an attempt to exterminate the Starks. Not to say that Lyanna's abduction wouldn't have been a big deal on its own - but my impression is that (next to Brandon) Robert was the one who took that most personally.

A question. (And it could be a dumb question, so be gentle if I'm forgetting something obvious - but...) Why did Aerys call for Robert Baratheon's head? Madness aside, it sort of makes sense that he had it out for Ned - if only because the Starks were sort of "under his skin" at the time. But it's said that Aerys called for Jon Arryn to give up both of his wards, and I can't remember what Robert might have done to draw the king's eye. Do we know why Aerys would have been wroth with Robert?

[horizon]

I think the North's part in the rebellion was driven primarily by the fact that Aerys murdered Lord Rickard and his heir, then called for the head of the next in line. If Lyanna's disappearance was widely known at that point, then it starts to look like an attempt to exterminate the Starks. Not to say that Lyanna's abduction wouldn't have been a big deal on its own - but my impression is that (next to Brandon) Robert was the one who took that most personally.

Here's a question. (And this could be a dumb question, so be gentle if I'm forgetting something obvious.) Why did Aerys call for Robert Baratheon's head? Madness aside, it sort of makes sense that he had it out for Ned - if only because the Starks were sort of "under his skin" at the time. But it's said that Aerys called for Jon Arryn to give up both of his wards, and I can't remember what Robert might have done to draw the king's eye. Do we know why Aerys would have been wroth with Robert?

Aerys perhaps knew that Rhaegar wanted Lyanna and wanted to support his son?

[horizon]

Upon post 411.

All that happened because Jon was enraged. Westeros in flames and frozen. Everyone death. Epilogue with Varys going like: oh shizzles, no one told Snow that Lyanna & Rhaeger were the most romantic couple ever and he was a love child?

[Amoracchius]

I have a feeling Ned's bastard is with Ashara and is named Gerold Dayne aka Darkstar who is oddly nicknamed Ned.

Darkstar is not the Dayne named Ned. Arya meets Ned Dayne, the boy Lord of Starfall, when she is with the Brotherhood Without Banners (he's Beric's squire). In AFFC, we meet Gerold "Darkstar" Dayne, who is from a lesser branch of House Dayne, from High Hermitage, not Starfall.

[JNR]

A question. (And it could be a dumb question, so be gentle if I'm forgetting something obvious - but...) Why did Aerys call for Robert Baratheon's head? Madness aside, it sort of makes sense that he had it out for Ned - if only because the Starks were sort of "under his skin" at the time. But it's said that Aerys called for Jon Arryn to give up both of his wards, and I can't remember what Robert might have done to draw the king's eye. Do we know why Aerys would have been wroth with Robert?

My best guess is that it was an expression of Aerys' paranoia.

Of the non-Rhaegar candidates who might threaten to replace Aerys, Robert must have looked like a leader. He had a genetic connection to House Targaryen, considerable personal charisma, he was the ruling lord of the Stormlands, and he was very closely linked to two other powerful houses in the Starks and the Arryns.

It is also conceivable to me that Aerys saw Robert's betrothal to Lyanna as an expression of alliance-building along these lines.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

My best guess is that it was an expression of Aerys' paranoia.

Of the non-Rhaegar candidates who might threaten to replace Aerys, Robert must have looked like a leader. He had a genetic connection to House Targaryen, considerable personal charisma, he was the ruling lord of the Stormlands, and he was very closely linked to two other powerful houses in the Starks and the Arryns.

It is also conceivable to me that Aerys saw Robert's betrothal to Lyanna as an expression of alliance-building along these lines.

A lot of that makes sense to me, but I take if from your appeal to "best guesses" that we are not given a clear explanation in the the text itself? I'll look back through things to double check, I just don't recall anything explicit - and your post seems to confirm that. Aerys' aggression toward Robert would make sense if Robert had made some kind of threat first - a la Brandon, storming the Red Keep. And I could very easily imagine Robert saying or doing something rash in response to the "Lyanna abduction" story... we just haven't been told what that might have been.

[Hrafntýr]

There's fuzziness.

We don't know how much time was involved for all of these stages:

1. Lyanna's disappearance

2. Brandon finding out and riding to the Red Keep

3. Rickard being summoned to the Red Keep

4. Rickard showing up (from where?) and getting burned

5. Jon Arryn receiving a raven summoning Robert and Ned, and deciding instead to call his banners

What we do know is that the Rebellion subsequently lasted about a year.

Rhaegar's return "from the south" to King's Landing probably happened a fair amount of time prior to the end of the Rebellion, of course, because he had to lead the loyalist forces to the Trident, then get killed, and then more time had to pass for the Lannister forces to show up at King's Landing and sack it.

My guess is Lyanna's total time of disappearance was ~14 months, Rhaegar's more like ~10-11 months.

And I just wonder if it might not be much longer than that, on account of uncertainty of what we consider the "official" start time of the war. Though really this would just shift around the uncertainty regarding Lyanna's whereabouts, yielding more time in the "with Rhaegar" unknown than the "pre-Rhaegar" unknown.

I have a feeling we need to look at Lyanna and Ashara (but we aren't told). Ashara was not nailed to one place as GRRM said somewhere.

Ashara gets pregnant at Harrenhal by a Stark. When she finds out and contacts Winterfell, she is where? KL I assume helping Elia. Lyanna goes there, maybe with Brandon, because he needs to go to Riverrun. Ashara and Lyanna leave for Starfall, Brandon gets tipped ny Littlefinger that Rhaegar is to blame ...

If Ashara returns from KL to Starfall with Lyanna and Rhaegar shows up later most people in Dorne won't suspect foul play.

I've never bought the Ashara-Stark (either Brandon or Ned) story. It's an easy one for Ser Barristan to adopt since it fits with his envy over her dancing with a Stark at Harrenhal ("If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?"). However, he does seem quite certain that Ashara was "dishonored," which is to say, he seems certain that she was pregnant (I think he's in KL until the Battle of the Bells, when he's sent off to clean things up with JC's army. Personally, I've always thought that Ashara was "dishonored" by Aerys in KL after the Harrenhal tourney, if Ashara was serving as Elia's lady in waiting in KL during that time. I'd say that Aegon would thus be the child of Ashara and Aerys, making him Dany's brother, not her nephew. The only support for this, though, beyond logistical possibility, would be Barristan's remark:

"He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter ... But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well."

This may all be rather tangential to our central concerns, but it does speak to some of the possibilities of what could have been happening at Starfall. Of course, it requires Barristan to be a little fuzzy about the duration of Ashara's pregnancy. I've never really understood, though, his assertion that she was dishonored at Harrenhal, which doesn't at all fit the idea that she threw herself from the tower at Starfall after the war, when Selmy says that she threw herself from the tower "soon after" her child was stillborn. If this were the child of Harrenhal, how could it be born two years later?

It's this discrepancy that makes me think that perhaps Ashara gave birth to Aegon as child of Aerys, but earlier (though I'm equally happy with other possibilities, like that she gave birth to Aegon at KL and switched out the babies, replacing her Targ bastard for the "real" Aegon, which would save her from having to raise her child of rape, if she's Septa Lemore), and that she was complicit with the Lyanna pregnancy cover up or that her family was, using the story (or reality) of her suicide to add fuel to the flames of the Ned-Ashara story, basically allowing people to say: well, yes, they SAY her child was stillborn, but Ned Stark returned to the North with a bouncing baby boy and will allow no one to speak of its mother.

ETA: Also, it kinda makes sense that in Winterfell and the North, the story is that Lyanna was kidnapped. Saying she run away with him would make people think Lyanna caused indirectly his father's and brother's deaths and caused a war in which many Northern houses lost members.

Definitely. And also why it would be the "official" story during Robert's reign, since it's good for any ruler to vilify the ruler he deposed, and who would dare to suggest that the King's betrothed had run away to avoid marrying him?