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Petyr baelish....


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Doesn't change the fact that he was humiliated in front of the girl he loved and the only reason he wasn't killed was because she begged Brandon not to kill him. Actually, from an embarrassment standpoint it's worse that she was asking Brandon to spare him before the duel. Clearly she expected Petyr to lose.


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Doesn't change the fact that he was humiliated in front of the girl he loved and the only reason he wasn't killed was because she begged Brandon not to kill him. Actually, from an embarrassment standpoint it's worse that she was asking Brandon to spare him before the duel. Clearly she expected Petyr to lose.

I don't think he ever actually intended to win, and knew his life was not at risk, he just wanted to LOOK genuine. I think he is a sociopath, and his emotional state was therefore nothing like people are assuming.

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I don't think he ever actually intended to win, and knew his life was not at risk, he just wanted to LOOK genuine. I think he is a sociopath, and his emotional state was therefore nothing like people are assuming.

Even knowing he was going to get his butt kicked it had to hurt that Cat believed it too.

He may be a sociopath, but that doesn't mean he wasn't capable of thinking himself in love.

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I don't think he ever actually intended to win, and knew his life was not at risk, he just wanted to LOOK genuine. I think he is a sociopath, and his emotional state was therefore nothing like people are assuming.

I was always convinced his love for Catelyn was genuine when they were younger. However, with her rejecting his advances, giving Brandon her favor to wear during the fight, the humiliation of being defeated in the duel, and then the subsequent "loss-of-ward" status decided upon by Hoster Tully himself, it's then I believe he became spiteful.

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I was always convinced his love for Catelyn was genuine when they were younger. However, with her rejecting his advances, giving Brandon her favor to wear during the fight, the humiliation of being defeated in the duel, and then the subsequent "loss-of-ward" status decided upon by Hoster Tully himself, it's then I believe he became spiteful.

This would only make sense if he did not hurt anyone else without remorse. But he does. He hurts anyone who is in his way without a second thought, with no special effort for Catelyn. He gets his kicks out of manipulating everyone.

Sociopathy is an innate trait, not one acquired by humiliation. If one is not born with it, the only other ways to become a sociopath is severe early childhood abuse and neglect while the brain is still developing, or severe head trauma. Teenage humiliation is too late and not enough to cause that kind of neurological damage.

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This would only make sense if he did not hurt anyone else without remorse. But he does. He hurts anyone who is in his way without a second thought, with no special effort for Catelyn. He gets his kicks out of manipulating everyone.

Sociopathy is an innate trait, not one acquired by humiliation. If one is not born with it, the only other ways to become a sociopath is severe early childhood abuse and neglect while the brain is still developing, or severe head trauma. Teenage humiliation is too late and not enough to cause that kind of neurological damage.

I'm not sure if this will help shed some light on the situation, but hopefully it helps. Though I believe Littlefinger's moral compass still merits questioning however. This is from the "World of Ice and Fire" app which GRRM contributed towards:

"Raised with Lord Tully's daughters and son, Petyr shows a certain precocious cleverness and a gift for mischief. He also develops an infatuation with Catelyn Tully, despite the fact that she is well above his station. The younger Tully sister, Lysa, is similarly enamored of Petyr. When Catelyn's betrothal to Brandon Stark is announced, young Littlefinger gets himself well and truly drunk. That night, he is visited in his chambers by Lysa, who gives him her maidenhead. But in the throes of passion, it is Catelyn's name that he calls out and he is convinced that she was the one he slept with.

When the date of Catelyn's wedding to Brandon Stark is announced, and seeing the woman he loves about to slip away forever, Littlefinger challenges Brandon for her hand -- despite being little more than fifteen years of age while Brandon is already a man grown. [...]

After Littlefinger is sent back to the Fingers in disgrace [...]"

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Sociopathy is an innate trait, not one acquired by humiliation. If one is not born with it, the only other ways to become a sociopath is severe early childhood abuse and neglect while the brain is still developing, or severe head trauma. Teenage humiliation is too late and not enough to cause that kind of neurological damage.

I don't think I have read that paper yet... a quote maybe? I do not think that science has ultimately unlocked the origins of personality disorders to its fullest. And Petyr, while fullfilling many of the requirements of antisocial or dissocial personality disorder has many aspects that do not fit that profile.

Exsamples:

- Patients with this disorder often struggle to be empathic/understand the emotions of others. LF is excellent at that, otherwise he wouldn't be such a great manipulater.

- Impulse control is usually a huge issue for ASPD patients but not for LF

- ASPD-patients are usually physically violent,

- they usually can't keep a job....

LF does fullfill many of the requirements but just slapping the label sociopath on him does not cover it...

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I don't think I have read that paper yet... a quote maybe? I do not think that science has ultimately unlocked the origins of personality disorders to its fullest. And Petyr, while fullfilling many of the requirements of antisocial or dissocial personality disorder has many aspects that do not fit that profile.

Exsamples:

- Patients with this disorder often struggle to be empathic/understand the emotions of others. LF is excellent at that, otherwise he wouldn't be such a great manipulater.

- Impulse control is usually a huge issue for ASPD patients but not for LF

- ASPD-patients are usually physically violent,

- they usually can't keep a job....

LF does fullfill many of the requirements but just slapping the label sociopath on him does not cover it...

You are looking at the wrong disorder.

Look up sociopathy, not antisocial personality disorder.

Their number one trait: manipulation.

He does NOT exhibit empathy ever. He simply manipulates, which is entirely in line with the profile, and which does not at all require empathy. Does he understand people's emotions: yes. Does he care? No. Not empathy.

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You are looking at the wrong disorder.

Look up sociopathy, not antisocial personality disorder.

I am not looking at the wrong disorder ASPD is the DSM/ICD Diagnosis for sociopathy.

But I think it doesn't matter because for our purpose both can be used synonymously.

Their number one trait: manipulation.

He does NOT exhibit empathy ever. He simply manipulates, which is entirely in line with the profile, and which does not at all require empathy. Does he understand people's emotions: yes. Does he care? No. Not empathy.

They have more than one defining trait and it is not manipulation. It is lack of concern for rules and the feelings of others. This is true for LF I agree he has no concsience and no remorse. But for most sociopaths these traits usually lead to failure in life and often early imprisonment. They ususally are unable to control their urges, and they have difficulty to read the emotions of others. To be manipulative like LF you need to be excellent at reading the emotions of others (see cognitive empathy). Yes he doesn't give a shit about hurting them or whatever but he understands them sociopaths usually do not. He is never impulsive. There are standarts how much criteria a person needs to fullfill to be diagnosed with a certain disorder. Fullfilling one (being manipulative) will never give you a diagnosis. He shares some traits with sociopaths or ASPD patients, but he is ultimately more interesting/complicated than a simple patient of this fairly common disease.

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I am not looking at the wrong disorder ASPD is the DSM/ICD Diagnosis for sociopathy.

But I think it doesn't matter because for our purpose both can be used synonymously.

They have more than one defining trait and it is not manipulation. It is lack of concern for rules and the feelings of others. This is true for LF I agree he has no concsience and no remorse. But for most sociopaths these traits usually lead to failure in life and often early imprisonment. They ususally are unable to control their urges, and they have difficulty to read the emotions of others. To be manipulative like LF you need to be excellent at reading the emotions of others (see cognitive empathy). Yes he doesn't give a shit about hurting them or whatever but he understands them sociopaths usually do not. He is never impulsive. There are standarts how much criteria a person needs to fullfill to be diagnosed with a certain disorder. Fullfilling one (being manipulative) will never give you a diagnosis. He shares some traits with sociopaths or ASPD patients, but he is ultimately more interesting/complicated than a simple patient of this fairly common disease.

There are the ones who fail in life yes.

And then there are the ones who become CEOs.

Sociopathy functions in degrees like autism does, and high functioning sociopaths tend to be perfectly suited for the world of capitalism. They are driven, charming,feel no anxiety, make decisions easily and according to business and personal objectives without regard for anyone's feelings about the matter. I posted an article from Forbes on a different thread on high functioning sociopathic CEOs. Then there are the ones like Madoff.

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I see what you are getting at now, and I agree that the comparison between LF and a heartless, manipulative CEO is very good.



I would still be careful with the use of medical terms, though. Forbes is no scientific journal.


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I see what you are getting at now, and I agree that the comparison between LF and a heartless, manipulative CEO is very good.

I would still be careful with the use of medical terms, though. Forbes is no scientific journal.

Well no, it is not :)

But medicine also acknowledges the existence of high functioning sociopaths

On my LF evidence review I found it fascinating that the very first memory that GRRM has Catelyn share with us about LF was his reaction when he got in trouble as a kid.

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There are the ones who fail in life yes.

And then there are the ones who become CEOs.

Sociopathy functions in degrees like autism does, and high functioning sociopaths tend to be perfectly suited for the world of capitalism. They are driven, charming,feel no anxiety, make decisions easily and according to business and personal objectives without regard for anyone's feelings about the matter. I posted an article from Forbes on a different thread on high functioning sociopathic CEOs. Then there are the ones like Madoff.

Did you have to use autism? I know you're not saying the two are the same, or even related, but aren't there any other spectrum disorders out there that would have worked? I apologize if I seem touchy (which I am). And actually there may not be any other good examples. I certainly can't think of one at the moment.

With a high enough intellect (and we all know LF is no slouch in the brains department) a lot of innate tendencies can be overcome, and the analysis necessary to be able to understand other people's reactions and manipulate them through their emotions can be learned--also that does not require actually feeling anything remotely like empathy.

Like I said before, LF may be a sociopath but we don't really know yet. Technically it's a much scarier story if he's not. His not giving a damn about how others feel doesn't have to be an indication of neuro abnormalities. Why should he care what people who have never shown him any kindness think or feel? And for the people who have been kind (Cat, for example) that level of cruelty can come as easily from deep, scarring pain that makes you want to make the world suffer with you as from being a certifiable psycho.

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