In Defense of Lyanna

[CosimaistheHottest]

The Tourney at Harrenhal was 281. The Rebellion started 282, so the abduction was late 281 or early 282, it's unclear. Rhaegar was born in 259, (age 0), so in 281 he would have been 22 and just 21 when he and Lyanna fell in love. There's a pretty big difference between a 24 year old taking off with a 14 year old and a 21 year old taking off with a 16 year old, although in medieval times much older men often wed (or had affairs with) girls much younger than them, so the size of the gap is really only relevant to our modern sensibilities about what constitutes statutory rape and the age of consent and so on.

Rhaegar wasn't 21. He was 22 when they ran off. 23/24 when he died.

Rhaegar also didn't take off with a 16 year old. I see you are downing Rhaegar's age while keeping Lyanna's the same. Lyanna was 16 when she died that means that she must have been taken either as a 14/15 year old.

[Rill Redthorn]

I thought you were arguing what age he was when he eloped with Lyanna... He was 22 when he escaped with her, and died around the age of 23,24. At the moment of eloping, Lyanna would 14, and she died at the age of 16.

The issue is how big the gap between the two of them was, even though that wasn't terribly relevant in those days. ("Younger than she are happy mothers made," -- said of 14 year old Juliet, in a play written circa 1600, much later than the medieval times ASOIAF resembles.) People were saying "14 and 24" and while the exact size of the gap is a bit fuzzy, it wasn't 10 years.

[Wmarshal]

The issue is how big the gap between the two of them was, even though that wasn't terribly relevant in those days. ("Younger than she are happy mothers made," -- said of 14 year old Juliet, in a play written circa 1600, much later than the medieval times ASOIAF resembles.) People were saying "14 and 24" and while the exact size of the gap is a bit fuzzy, it wasn't 10 years.

Juilet was very stupid as was Romeo. You are right it 8 years.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Do I have to remind you who has here argued that a certain lady had no right of going with a man she wanted. Talking about double standards... Brandon was engaged to Catelyn and he was sleeping all around and we don't have problem with that, but when Lyanna went away with someone she loves, to escape a marriage to man whom she didn't love, she is being "selfish brat". If you want to talk about offensive opinions, just read what you have posted on this thread and many others about Lyanna. I am not saying it is necessarily offensive, but you said it was.

If Brandon had disappeared with a married princess mother of two who had abandoned her children to be with him and their actions has a chains of reactions that would lead to a War that ended with the death of many people including the deaths of Brandon’s father and brother, himself, his princess and her families then they would have been the same.

That your assessment of Lyanna as "brat who thought to be better than anyone" has no foundation in text.

I think that her decision to do what ever she wanted without thinking the ramifications of her actions proves that he was a selfish brat.

No, asking for death of a Crowned Prince is. Certainly, this is your logic... Half of Jaime's testimony we will have to accept because it suits us, the other half not so much. I see you do this all the time, with SSMs, with some people's opinions etc... Don't do that. Jaime's report of the events shouldn't be taken as false given that most likely he was sent among others to attain Brandon and bring him in front of the King. Or at least he heard about what Brandon did. I doubt that if he yelled, it would be a secret of what he has done... So, no, I believe in Jaime's report which was also confirmed by Ned's words.

Wrong, half of Jaime's testimony is acceptable because he was present half isn't because he wasn't. As for the SSM I just point out that when 1&2 is clearly stated 3 is never mentioned. Simple.

That assuming Rhaegar was on board with this. Without Rhaegar as part of coup, Dorne, Reach and Crownlands would still support Aerys, just as they did.

Wasn't Rhaegar the one who was talking about changes when he would come back?

[Mladen]

Bob was a whiny jerk, but it rubs me the wrong wa when people portray Cersei as the victim.

1) Again, a King needs heirs and Cersei wasn't putting out. It doesn't make it right, but it's understandable. Further more, let's look at the one time that we did see Robert hit her.

2) I never said he wasn't. Although, I'd say that it's more about how Cersei raised him and how he was born. Stannis doesn't seem to spend a lot of time with his daughter, but you don't see her cutting open pregnant cats.

3) They were both abusive, but probably Cersei more. After all, she killed him.

Look, as I told you, one wrong doesn't wash the other. I am not making victim of Cersei where she isn't, but in the microcosm of their marriage, she was a victim. She was being beaten, raped, humiliated in public. That doesn't mean she was a good person. That just means Robert abused her. She probably verbally and emotionally abused him, making him feel less worth. But, again, that simply doesn't change the fact that Robert hit her and raped her. This is not about exonerating Cersei, but just objective view on the matter.

1. Ned needed an heir. He wasn't raping Cat for that. Women are not ordinarily raped for the children. Cersei was.

2. Yeah, Stannis neglects Shireen too, but not all children are the same. Robert should have been more careful about Joffrey, he was his heir, and Robert should have been far more included in boy's life.

3. Just because Cersei killed Robert, doesn't mean she was more abusive.

Also, we have went way off topic and before we get into trouble for derailing the thread, let we end it here...

[DurararaFTW]

Look, as I told you, one wrong doesn't wash the other. I am not making victim of Cersei where she isn't, but in the microcosm of their marriage, she was a victim. She was being beaten, raped, humiliated in public. That doesn't mean she was a good person. That just means Robert abused her. She probably verbally and emotionally abused him, making him feel less worth. But, again, that simply doesn't change the fact that Robert hit her and raped her. This is not about exonerating Cersei, but just objective view on the matter.

Cersei said she was hit about two or three times. And it's not they weren't having a ****ton of argument in the book alone. And that Robert hadn't slept with her in years. She killed him anyway. Framing it as she actively getting beaten and raped all the time and THAT's why she had him murdered IS blatantly exonerating her.

[Fat Trell]

1) "My oldest brother is a hothead, so of course I must be very careful to never ever do anything to upset him or his actions will be on my head!" (NOT. Brandon's acts are on Brandon's head only.)

2) "Something bad" = "Families throwing a fit and disowning us," not "Realm breaking out into civil war."

1) "My older brother with whom I'm close is very quick to anger. If I'm going to run off with a man in a manner that looks like kidnapping/rape I should probably make sure he knows its not. Because I don't want him, and subsequently my entire family, and subsequently half the country, to get into any trouble. Because that's something a person of character would worry about. Anyone who wouldn't worry about that would either be unbelievably shortsighted or a borderline sociopath, right?"

2) When have we ever seen precedent for this? Why would Rhaegar expect his mentally incompetent father to make such a move? And Rhaegar clearly didn't expect to be set aside, hence the whole prince that was promised, needing a new set of Visenya, Rhaenys, and Aegon thing.

[Ser Eric]

Daemon Blackfyre and five further generations of Blackfyres rebelled later partly because Daemon loved Daneyrs. There are some on this thread who should stop with this pretense that a war fought over a girl is impossible to believe. There is precedence, in this very series.

[Lee-Sensei]

Look, as I told you, one wrong doesn't wash the other. I am not making victim of Cersei where she isn't, but in the microcosm of their marriage, she was a victim. She was being beaten, raped, humiliated in public. That doesn't mean she was a good person. That just means Robert abused her. She probably verbally and emotionally abused him, making him feel less worth. But, again, that simply doesn't change the fact that Robert hit her and raped her. This is not about exonerating Cersei, but just objective view on the matter.

1. Ned needed an heir. He wasn't raping Cat for that. Women are not ordinarily raped for the children. Cersei was.

2. Yeah, Stannis neglects Shireen too, but not all children are the same. Robert should have been more careful about Joffrey, he was his heir, and Robert should have been far more included in boy's life.

3. Just because Cersei killed Robert, doesn't mean she was more abusive.

Also, we have went way off topic and before we get into trouble for derailing the thread, let we end it here...

1) I never said it did. They both abused each other, but a lot of people seem to shift or give most of the blame to Robert.

2) Catelyn didn't withhold sex. "Cersei is lovely to look at, truly, but cold … the way she guards her cunt, you'd think she had all the gold of Casterly Rock between her legs.

3) I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of children aren't born evil enough to cut open pregnant cats and tear their babies out when the're 3 to 5 years old. Robert should have taken more interest in his children. I agree with that. Heck, had taken his responsibilities more seriously he might have found out about Jaime and Cersei earlier.

4) The fact that she abuses him at every turn all through out AGoT means that she was more abusive. Robert hits her once and regrets it right after.

5) The point is that there's no proof that he'd beat her and their hypothetical children.

[Hippocras]

Cersei murdered her childhood friend remember. Pushed her down the well. She also abused infant Tyrion. What she was was not a product of Robert's failings.

[Mladen]

If Brandon had disappeared with a married princess mother of two who had abandoned her children to be with him and their actions has a chains of reactions that would lead to a War that ended with the death of many people including the deaths of Brandon’s father and brother, himself, his princess and her families then they would have been the same.

Again you argue something else to support your claim... It's becoming rather boring, you know...

I think that her decision to do what ever she wanted without thinking the ramifications of her actions proves that he was a selfish brat.

Ramifications? Let we see, what ramifications could have she predicted? Most likely, she knew she was facing dishonor, she knew probably that her family will disinherit her. Who knows whether she informed her father about what she was doing, or told Benjen to do so? We simply don't know and these unfounded assessments when we don't know full story are basically flawed in the root. So, even if Lyanna eloped, the only sensible ramification she would have predicted is that her family would disown her and she was prepared to live with that. Logically, there is no sense to argue that Lyanna could have predicted the war. And anyone arguing that is simply wrong.

Wrong, half of Jaime's testimony is acceptable because he was present half isn't because he wasn't. As for the SSM I just point out that when 1&2 is clearly stated 3 is never mentioned. Simple.

No, you choose what you want to believe and it has became widely known as your MO. And when it doesn't suit your opinion, then we find some twisted logic to bend the said words. Here, Jaime lived in the capital, in the Red Keep, he was there at the time, and he knows what has happened. So, unless we argue that he lied to Catelyn and that his entire testimony is false, I don't see how we can say that one is true and another isn't. Especially, and I repeat, given what Ned said was the cause of his brother's death.

Wasn't Rhaegar the one who was talking about changes when he would come back?

Yeah, but Rhaegar was always the key for overthrowing Aerys. Without him, that wouldn't be possible. And he said he will be changing things after war started.

Cersei said she was hit about two or three times. And it's not they weren't having a ****ton of argument in the book alone. And that Robert hadn't slept with her in years. She killed him anyway. Framing it as she actively getting beaten and raped all the time and THAT's why she had him murdered IS blatantly exonerating her.

Oh, God, who actually said that? I mean, people, do you actually read someone's posts before answering to them. I never said she killed him because he abused her, for it's very clear why she killed him.

2) Catelyn didn't withhold sex.

Don't go there... People might assume that you are arguing that when woman withhold sex to her husband, she is basically asking to be raped. I know you didn't mean that, but that is how it looks like.

[Hippocras]

Lyanna -

We just don't know enough.

Including, most significantly, what kind of person Elia was, and if she knew about Rhaegar's need for a third dragon head and agreed to the plan.

Or, maybe she was like Cersei and her kids were not even Rhaegar's.

We know nothing, so silly to blame Lyanna OR Rhaegar.

If you ask me, responsibility for the war falls on Varys, who whispered BS in Aerys's ear, and Aerys himself for being a sadist, for whatever he did at Harrenhal that made it go sour, and Robert maybe for never asking Lyanna how she felt about anything.

[Lee-Sensei]

Don't go there... People might assume that you are arguing that when woman withhold sex to her husband, she is basically asking to be raped. I know you didn't mean that, but that is how it looks like.

What I'm saying is that as the Queen she has the responsibility to give him trueborn heirs. Instead she placed her bastards born of incest on the Throne to steal his inheritance while threatening to kill his bastards if he brought them around. I never said that rape was okay.

Lyanna -

We just don't know enough.

Including, most significantly, what kind of person Elia was, and if she knew about Rhaegar's need for a third dragon head and agreed to the plan.

Or, maybe she was like Cersei and her kids were not even Rhaegar's.

We know nothing, so silly to blame Lyanna OR Rhaegar.

If you ask me, responsibility for the war falls on Varys, who whispered BS in Aerys's ear, and Aerys himself for being a sadist, for whatever he did at Harrenhal that made it go sour, and Robert maybe for never asking Lyanna how she felt about anything.

It wasn't BS though. It's implied that Rhaegar was plotting against him.

[butterbumps!]

and so it continues.

Seriously, it looks like there were some significant breakdowns in communication going on just before the Rebellion, and I'm not sure anyone was truly operating on real information. Putting aside whether Lyanna and Rhaegar had, in fact, attempted communication (since we really don't know), it looks like Brandon might have been operating from some seriously salacious info.

We know from Jaime that Brandon marched into his enemy's castle (as in, inside the thing, where he will be trapped), with only 4 men (how are 5 men total going to hold off the royal army) and demanded that Rhaegar "come out and die" (without asking where Lyanna is, whether Rhaegar is actually there, or in a way that doesn't involve his calling for Rhaegar to come die).

That behavior goes beyond a "hothead" who learned simply that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. That's hotheaded, plus insanely stupid, plus indicative of having a death wish/ expecting to die.

We have some further info on Brandon from Ned that suggests this reaction would be somewhat out of character based on the simple assumption that he reacted to Lyanna's being kidnapped:

That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth. “Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”

That doesn't fully sound like the sort of guy who'd march into an enemy keep with a small party, not knowing whether the enemy was even there, and demanding the enemy to come out and die, does it?

My point being, I don't think the events unfolded as neatly as most posters are suggesting-- that is, I don't believe we can take for granted that Lyanna and Rhaegar didn't communicate or have a plan in place, that Brandon responded to the mere news that Rhaegar had run off with Lyanna, or that anyone's reaction was remotely predictable from the POV of the initial catalysts of this.

[DurararaFTW]

Oh, God, who actually said that? I mean, people, do you actually read someone's posts before answering to them. I never said she killed him because he abused her, for it's very clear why she killed him.

I said framed, it was a reply to someone who brought her killing him. And as far as I know, they were still married when that happened so yeah. That would be the implication.

Cersei had a horrible time of it but she stopped being the victim in their marriage a long time ago. The only time Robert did ANYTHING to her in the books is when she was speaking open treason.

[Hippocras]

and so it continues.

Seriously, it looks like there were some significant breakdowns in communication going on just before the Rebellion, and I'm not sure anyone was truly operating on real information. Putting aside whether Lyanna and Rhaegar had, in fact, attempted communication (since we really don't know), it looks like Brandon might have been operating from some seriously salacious info.

We know from Jaime that Brandon marched into his enemy's castle (as in, inside the thing, where he will be trapped), with only 4 men (how are 5 men total going to hold off the royal army) and demanded that Rhaegar "come out and die" (without asking where Lyanna is, whether Rhaegar is actually there, or in a way that doesn't involve his calling for Rhaegar to come die).

That behavior goes beyond a "hothead" who learned simply that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. That's hotheaded, plus insanely stupid, plus indicative of having a death wish/ expecting to die.

We have some further info on Brandon from Ned that suggests this reaction would be somewhat out of character based on the simple assumption that he reacted to Lyanna's being kidnapped:

That brought a bitter twist to Neds mouth. Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a Kings Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.

That doesn't fully sound like the sort of guy who'd march into an enemy keep with a small party, not knowing whether the enemy was even there, and demanding the enemy to come out and die, does it?

My point being, I don't think the events unfolded as neatly as most posters are suggesting-- that is, I don't believe we can take for granted that Lyanna and Rhaegar didn't communicate or have a plan in place, that Brandon responded to the mere news that Rhaegar had run off with Lyanna, or that anyone's reaction was remotely predictable from the POV of the initial catalysts of this.

....or that the Master of Whispers was not using his position to deliberately spread untruths or twisted facts that were half-truths to provoke some of the above non-sensical actions.

[butterbumps!]

....or that the Master of Whispers was not using his position to deliberately spread untruths or twisted facts that were half-truths.

Yea, exactly. What started the WotFK, after all? With players like Doran, Pycelle and especially Varys (Varys, ffs) playing long before the series begins, I wouldn't assume the seeming illogic of characters' behaviors in Robert's Rebellion are because they were illogical.

[Wmarshal]

Lyanna -

We just don't know enough.

Including, most significantly, what kind of person Elia was, and if she knew about Rhaegar's need for a third dragon head and agreed to the plan.

Or, maybe she was like Cersei and her kids were not even Rhaegar's.

We know nothing, so silly to blame Lyanna OR Rhaegar.

If you ask me, responsibility for the war falls on Varys, who whispered BS in Aerys's ear, and Aerys himself for being a sadist, for whatever he did at Harrenhal that made it go sour, and Robert maybe for never asking Lyanna how she felt about anything.

Unless Elia was Lollys in the brain their is no way she could saw his planv was good idea. Any product of Lyanna would a threat to Elia's kids. The plan was so lazy and left Elia and the kids in Aerys hands.

Varys was telling Aerys exactly what was happening, the lords were assembling and Rhaegar was planning treachery.

[Fat Trell]

That behavior goes beyond a "hothead" who learned simply that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. That's hotheaded, plus insanely stupid, plus indicative of having a death wish/ expecting to die.

We have some further info on Brandon from Ned that suggests this reaction would be somewhat out of character based on the simple assumption that he reacted to Lyanna's being kidnapped:

That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth. “Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”

That doesn't fully sound like the sort of guy who'd march into an enemy keep with a small party, not knowing whether the enemy was even there, and demanding the enemy to come out and die, does it?

Ned wasn't as close to his siblings as they were to each other. Ned was away at the Eyrie while they were together in the North. He in all likelihood didn't know Brandon as well as Lyanna.

And that quote sounds like little brother syndrome, not an in depth character analysis focusing on Brandon's temper.

The kind of person who would march up to the Red Keep and demand(allegedly) that the Crown Prince come out and die sounds exactly like someone who would always know what to do. In their own mind at least.

[Hippocras]

Unless Elia was Lollys in the brain their is no way she could saw his planv was good idea. Any product of Lyanna would a threat to Elia's kids. The plan was so lazy and left Elia and the kids in Aerys hands.

Varys was telling Aerys exactly what was happening, the lords were assembling and Rhaegar was planning treachery.

Assumptions assumptions. :)