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Rhaegar and Lyanna: what do we even really know?


butterbumps!

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I find Dany's view of what happened interesting too. She wasn't alive at the time, but would have heard of it from Viserys, who in turn, can only have heard of it second-hand. She thinks Rhaegar did kidnap Lyanna at sword point (and thinks it romantic!) so I wonder if that was the accepted account in Kings Landing, and the one which Brandon heard. Ned may have got a different account from Lyanna, as she was dying.o

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snip>How far away is riverrun from kings landing? If brandons journey to the capitol to a few days or more that should have been time for him to cool off and think about his actions, right? Im pretty sure he was banking on the fact that he was the son of a powerful lord with tons of connections and marriage alliances to save him from being executed while in the capitol though.

About 600 miles as the crow flies, maybe? That would make it at least 800 miles via River Road - Darry - King´s Road. And wasn´t he with Elbert Arryn (heir of the Vale) and Jeffory Mallister? They were probably all high on honour.

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Ned harbor's no grudge on Aerys, he was inhuman.

Yeah was going to mention this, Ned doesn't seem to hold many grudges, just gets sort of introverted and grim about everything. He doesn't even hate Cersei for basically cuckolding his best friend for years and tricking him into thinking her incestuous bastards were his children.

He's as cold as ice and willing to sacrifice...

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I have to say, thank you for this thread, Butterbumps!. The reason why I am rather weary of participating in R+L threads are because people are so quick to assign blame to one party or the other when there is so much pertinent information to the story that's obviously missing.



As for Benjen joining the NW, I'm quoting this from the "World of Ice and Fire" app:


"Lord Rickard Stark's youngest son is present with his siblings at the great tourney at Harrenhal when a brother of the Night's Watch appears to beg the gathered chivalry to take the black. It is a plea Benjen takes to heart. He remains at Winterfell throughout Robert's Rebellion, but once Eddard is back ruling Winterfell, with his sons Robb and Jon ensuring the continuation of the Stark lineage, Benjen joins the Watch."




It seems as if he was genuinely interested in the NW, but I can also see how it would also serve as a means to remove himself from the past (aka Lyanna and RR).


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I have yet to see anywhere in the text support for these characterisations.

The way I saw them using one word for each? Rhaegar = Broody. Lyanna = Tomboy.

Mind you, we as people continuously construe our own meanings/definitions into written works. Happens all the time. ;)

And I agree with you Butterbumps! about messages possibly being doctored. What if someone had found proof that Lyanna was the mystery knight at the tourney? Aerys in his deepening paranoia had already decided that the KotLT was his enemy, along with some of the Great Houses. The mystery knight being a child of a Lord Paramount would be powerful knowledge to have/hold over someone. There's so much potential for threats/blackmail in that idea alone.

Thank you Butterbumps!, for giving those of us who want to share our analysis of the text without worrying about being shot down by those who've read each book countless times, or having it explained to us how we're too stupid to 'get' what GRRM was saying. I'm not trying to be snarky here, but most discussions about Rhaegar and Lyanna get pretty annoying pretty fast - and the constant back and forth slinging matches are off-putting to those searching for more insight.

Here's to the success of this thread. :cheers:

Thank you! I hoped a compilation of info would be of some use.

I think looking closer at the Harrenhal Tourney is a good idea. One thing that kind of nags me is how Aerys allegedly said that the KotLT was no friend of his, and was hugely suspicious about him:

“That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end.”
What made Aerys so concerned about the knight?

ETA: Did Dayne and Whent picked Lyanna up with Rhaegar? I remember Ran speculating that Whent might have spirited her away from Harrenhal. I don´t think we can even be certain that all those three were present for all the time at the Tower of Joy.

The app Martin approved says that Rhaegar was with Dayne and Whent at the time of "abduction" in Rhaegar's entry. Who was with Rhaegar at the time of the incident hasn't been commented on in the books, to my knowledge.

One I'd read that, I'd taken it as a given. Should this be included in our "knowns," or would this render it subject to speculation? (genuinely asking)

Well, I guess your right, but i still don't feel too confident about this. To me, Brandon getting upset isn't so surprising, and his reaction is something any person described as hot headed could end up doing. I also think there is a bit too much stock being put in neds thoughts on brandon. Ned is brandons younger brother, its not too far fetched to think Ned would think brandon would know what to do even if brandon wasn't really all that sharp.

Something just occurred to me too, though it sort of hurts my argument. How far away is riverrun from kings landing? If brandons journey to the capitol to a few days or more that should have been time for him to cool off and think about his actions, right? Im pretty sure he was banking on the fact that he was the son of a powerful lord with tons of connections and marriage alliances to save him from being executed while in the capitol though.

There were days between Riverrun and KL, so yea, time to cool off about the initial shock (no matter what version of the story he heard), which is part of why I think he had the notion that there was something very urgent about the situation-- like, he believed he had to act at once, without communicating with the rest of his family, gathering more men, or seeing an alternative to this.

btw, brah-- I think it's understandable and reasonable that no matter what Brandon heard, he'd be angry about this. My contention is how egregious the entire reaction is, including showing up in the enemy's castle trapping himself, without men, without confirmation of Rhaegar's whereabouts, demanding Rhaegar's death, and not inquiring about Lyanna. That to me suggests he was under the impression he needed extreme urgency and something pretty salacious.

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<snip> What made Aerys so concerned about the knight?

He probably expected him to be involved in the plot that Varys had warned him of.

The Kingbreaker in Dance.

Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Har renhal, and everything had gone awry from there.

Rhaegar retrieving the shield and claiming that he found it in a tree or telling Lyanna to leave it in a tree could have been a cover up for Lyanna, who could have been in trouble with all those eager knights hunting for the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

Crowning her is odd though. It reminded me of Baelor standing up in support of Duncan at the Tourney of the Ashford. Taking up the cause of true chivalry.

The app Martin approved says that Rhaegar was with Dayne and Whent at the time of "abduction" in Rhaegar's entry. Who was with Rhaegar at the time of the incident hasn't been commented on in the books, to my knowledge.

One I'd read that, I'd taken it as a given. Should this be included in our "knowns," or would this render it subject to speculation? (genuinely asking)<snip>

Ah the App, I consider it to be an electronic appendix. Pretty much a given, though in this case I´d say those three were in on hiding Lyanna, but not necessarily "picking her up" together

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What's curious, then, is why Ned seems to harbour no bitterness at all towards Rhaegar.

Very relevant point. Most telling. Ned knows a lot, too.

These are good points, but on the bolded, I should point out that we actually don't even have an account that Brandon heard she was "abducted." This is what we have from Jaime and Cat:

He was on his way to Riverrun when . . . Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. . . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to Kings Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do. She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

It's alluded to kind of nebulously-- "when he heard about Lyanna" without reference to what it was that he heard.

Also very relevant. It's often what's not said that matters.

I find Dany's view of what happened interesting too. She wasn't alive at the time, but would have heard of it from Viserys, who in turn, can only have heard of it second-hand. She thinks Rhaegar did kidnap Lyanna at sword point (and thinks it romantic!) so I wonder if that was the accepted account in Kings Landing, and the one which Brandon heard. Ned may have got a different account from Lyanna, as she was dying.

She did view it romantically, and also notably as a rescue from an unwanted marriage.

She did not want to marry Hizdahr, and hoped Daario would ride up and rescue her from the unwanted marriage. A political marriage. Not a marriage for love.

Daario is the one Dany loves. And in the parallel, Rhaegar is the one Lyanna loves.

Daario's act of love is carrying off Dany. Just like Rhaegar's act of love was carrying off Lyanna.

How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly. Even if her captain was mad enough to attempt it, the Brazen Beasts would cut him down before he got within a hundred yards of her.

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Ah the App, I consider it to be an electronic appendix. Pretty much a given, though in this case I´d say those three were in on hiding Lyanna, but not necessarily "picking her up" together

Here, let me give the quote from the app in Rhaegar's entry:

"Rhaegar abducted Lyanna with the aid of Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent."

ETA: I took that to mean they were with him, especially in light of the Targ account that appeals to "swordpoint," but perhaps it doesn't indicate this for certain.

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The more I think about the “suicidal challenge” of Brandon, the more I believe that he was under the effect of Basilisk’s Venom.



We also have another “suicidal challenge” happened not so long before Lyanna’s disappearance. LF (a boy) challenged Brandon (a fully grown man of great combat skill) for the hand of Cat. We know that this “humiliation” changed LF and he started to employ a new course of action.


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Butterbumps!, I read that as - of this point in the story the readers are told that Lyanna was abducted (from her families point of view) on Rhaegar´s orders with unspecified aid from Dayne and Whent -. :)



Paper Waver, Basilisk Venom would be an excellent explanation, except that it would have been fed to Brandon shortly before he challanged Rhaegar, no? Otherwise he´d probably hack off his compainions heads for riding too slow and we don´t know how soon it wears off.


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In the spirit of this thread, my opinions on the unknowns.



I think the following things can be presumed true with a reasonable degree of accuracy.



1. Rhaegar wanted to fulfill the prophecy. If that wasn't the case he does not sound like a character who would stray outside his marriage despite it being a political one.


2. Elia was alright with it. We see in Dany's visions that Rhaegar says "there must be one more" with Elia close by. At that point both Rhaegar and Elia know that she can't give him any more children so I think it's implied that she ok with it.


3. Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna which implies Lyanna went of her own free will.



Things we don't know:



1. Why Lyanna?


Now at this point, Rhaegar believes Aegon is the song of ice and fire so that wasn't the reason to choose Lyanna. Or is it just that he loved her? On the face of it Lyanna is an odd choice because she is already betrothed and Rhaegar risks angering the Stormlands and the North. If he just wanted a noble lady then he could have found plenty of other options.



2. Where was Lyanna taken?



3. Where was Brandon and who told him about Lyanna?


Hoster Tully seemed to be aware of Brandon's reason for going to KL. So was the news of Lyanna's 'kidnapping' common knowledge at this point?



4. Why did Lyanna agree to Rhaegar's plan?


Was it just irrational behavior due to infatuation or is there something more to it?


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2. Elia was alright with it. We see in Dany's visions that Rhaegar says "there must be one more" with Elia close by. At that point both Rhaegar and Elia know that she can't give him any more children so I think it's implied that she ok with it.

I don't agree with this at all, Elia would have to be an idiot to agree to Rhaegar's plan. The Targ history is marked by half sibling wars and back stabbing. Maegor, Aegon the second, Daemon, all where ass clowns to half siblings and their kids. Civil war was the Targs thing, that and warring with Dornish. Unless Elia lived in a cave, she would know this.

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I don't agree with this at all, Elia would have to be an idiot to agree to Rhaegar's plan. The Targ history is marked by half sibling wars and back stabbing. Maegor, Aegon the second, Daemon, all where ass clowns to half siblings and their kids. Civil war was the Targs thing, that and warring with Dornish. Unless Elia lived in a cave, she would know this.

This. All we seen in Dany's vision is Rhaegar talking to Elia about his prophecy. There was even a theory he wasn't talking to Elia at all but Dany who he could see somehow.

Elia did not show how she felt about Rhaegar's words if she heard them. She was holding her baby, nursing him and doing motherly stuff while Rhaegar was doing his prophetic thinking and talking about kingly names.

Nothing in the picture indicates that she was a fellow believer. In fact, given just how motherly she was behaving, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that she wouldn't be OK with Rhaegar fathering this child's rival with a woman whose House was more powerful than Elia's own.

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Ned harbor's no grudge on Aerys, he was inhuman.

Yeah was going to mention this, Ned doesn't seem to hold many grudges, just gets sort of introverted and grim about everything. He doesn't even hate Cersei for basically cuckolding his best friend for years and tricking him into thinking her incestuous bastards were his children.

He's as cold as ice and willing to sacrifice...

That is not correct. When he reminiscences about the Rebellion, he thinks "So the mad king had ordered his last mad act." That's his assessment of Aerys - mad. No use to hold a grudge against a mad person. Now, compare it with the way he thinks about e.g. Tywin, or the whole Lannister lot in general. The fact that he is very controlled doesn't mean that he doesn't care. He expresses his dislike of Cersei many times but, because he is a kind person, it doesn't prevent him from feeling sorry for her as an abused wife and mother.

I don't agree with this at all, Elia would have to be an idiot to agree to Rhaegar's plan. The Targ history is marked by half sibling wars and back stabbing. Maegor, Aegon the second, Daemon, all where ass clowns to half siblings and their kids. Civil war was the Targs thing, that and warring with Dornish. Unless Elia lived in a cave, she would know this.

On the other hand, if she believed the prophecy, dynastic squabbles might seem a minor thing in comparison to ice zombie apocalypsis.

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On the other hand, if she believed the prophecy, dynastic squabbles might seem a minor thing in comparison to ice zombie apocalypsis.

An why would she? Rhaegar wasn't even hundred percent sure d the Targsbeing wrong up this is amazing, Aerion, Aegon, and Daeron all died because of what they believe was destine.

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An why would she? Rhaegar wasn't even hundred percent sure d the Targsbeing wrong up this is amazing, Aerion, Aegon, and Daeron all died because of what they believe was destine.

And the whole Targaryen line was the only to have survived the Doom of Valyria, solely because they followed a prophecy. If the one Rhaegar was following was from the same source, Daenys the Dreamer, it would have high credibility.

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Ah the App, I consider it to be an electronic appendix. Pretty much a given, though in this case I´d say those three were in on hiding Lyanna, but not necessarily "picking her up" together

The three of them could have been in the North (or anywhere else) for a different reason when they meet Lyanna. If Lyanna was anything like Arya, she could have escaped Winterfell by herself.

The more I think about the “suicidal challenge” of Brandon, the more I believe that he was under the effect of Basilisk’s Venom.

We also have another “suicidal challenge” happened not so long before Lyanna’s disappearance. LF (a boy) challenged Brandon (a fully grown man of great combat skill) for the hand of Cat. We know that this “humiliation” changed LF and he started to employ a new course of action.

And Brandon didn't react violently, in fact, he listened to Cat's plead to not kill him. A hot headed man could have easily ignored him, get offended by the challenge and arrest him. I know Cat's not his sister but she was betrothed to him, and let's say for a proud man like him, it was "his".

But after reading more about the venom, I think the one who was under the effect of such was Aerys.

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