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[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa VI: Purple reign


Mladen

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The series messed up, though. The way they played it, Margeary really did seem to have control over Joffrey, even at the wedding. Cersei's fears about that were justified. In the series, it doesn't logically follow that they would want Joffrey dead. They seemed to have control of the king.

Wouldn't you much rather have a nice, functional king, rather than a giggling sociopath who required tons of maintenance on a daily basis?

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I was always curious about why the Tyrells did it at the wedding when Margery would have no claim, but my guess is they thought it'd be better to keep her "a maiden" and set up her marriage with Tommen than let her be spoiled by a psychopath.

the best reason ive heard regarding their decision to off Joff. :bowdown:

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I think the most control anyone could ever have over Joffrey would be dubious at best. By the end of the day Marg wasn't having an easy time 'soothing' him, he was making a fool of himself in front of everyone.

Joff was making a fool of himself but he wasn't hurting Margaery. And Cersei's undermining notwithstanding, Margaery had exercised control over Joffrey by convincing him to give the leftover food to the poor. As long as he wasn't hurting Margaery, and doing what she wants, why would they want him dead?

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Wouldn't you much rather have a nice, functional king, rather than a giggling sociopath who required tons of maintenance on a daily basis?

I must needs agree.

Joff would have tortured Marge, mayhaps. And if not, he would have threatened to cross certain Tyrell niceties, as was on display at the wedding itself.

The Queen of Thorns would not have sat still for this.

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Wouldn't you much rather have a nice, functional king, rather than a giggling sociopath who required tons of maintenance on a daily basis?

Sure, but you know the saying about "the devil you know. . ." They have no certainty that Tywin would agree to marry Tommen to Margaery with Joffrey dead.

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Joff was making a fool of himself but he wasn't hurting Margaery. And Cersei's undermining notwithstanding, Margaery had exercised control over Joffrey by convincing him to give the leftover food to the poor. As long as he wasn't hurting Margaery, and doing what she wants, why would they want him dead?

Well, the Tyrells are deriving a lot of their increased power and status from the king they've married, and shoring up his power shores up theirs by extension. They've recognized that and like you said donated food to the poor on Joffrey's behalf, and I believe in season 3 did other things to endear Joffrey to the commoners, but he's still coming across as a petty, destructive asshole all too often.

Tommen's just a simpler solution, at least to me.

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......

And, as usual, we are glad to see you have seen the errors of your ways :)

.......

.

Let me know when you have seen some of your errors, I will graciousy forgive you :D

And, btw, who would be "we"?

Sorry, but you had this coming ;)

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This. Sophie Turner is so marvelous at what she does that it's annoying that they have her act so passively. Do much off hat she does is react to things, and while she does a great job of maintaining composure while being filled with emotional turmoil, it's something that can only be picked up by those paying attention.

So much of her role in the books is introspection. That's not well-suited for the show, but you'd think they could make adjustments to account for it like they do with other aspects that don't exactly translate to the screen perfectly. Instead all they do is cut her plot line and rob her of any sort of agency at all. It's a misuse of an excellent character and a talented actress.

I truly believe her passive position is simply a slowed down version of Dany's character arc and development.

She will eventually turn into a Littlefinger-tutored manipulator.

Except, instead of it happening over 1 book/season, it will run the course of the entire span of the series.

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I truly believe her passive position is simply a slowed down version of Dany's character arc and development.

She will eventually turn into a Littlefinger-tutored manipulator.

Except, instead of it happening over 1 book/season, it will run the course of the entire span of the series.

That would be fine if we saw any of it. We're four seasons in and we've gotten nothing like that. So when she does do the whole Alayne bit, her progress will seek like it came out of nowhere. In the books we're in her head -- we can see her digesting the lessons.

Aside from the marvelous Blackwater, where we see her inner goodness and her rejection of Cersei's dark view of humanity, we rarely get in her head. We don't see her learning lessons. She has one convo with Sandor in the show where he says everybody is a better liar than her, and we see her (again, in Blackwater) manipulating Joffrey... but that's it.

I wish they showed more if her growth, gave her a chance to shine. Hopefully with various characters dying off we'll have more time to spend with her as she develops at the Eyrie...

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Well, the Tyrells are deriving a lot of their increased power and status from the king they've married, and shoring up his power shores up theirs by extension. They've recognized that and like you said donated food to the poor on Joffrey's behalf, and I believe in season 3 did other things to endear Joffrey to the commoners, but he's still coming across as a petty, destructive asshole all too often.

Tommen's just a simpler solution, at least to me.

I think the show should have added a scene where Joff was particularly cruel to Margaery. Then it would be more logical and more justified.

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Why wouldn't Tywin agree? The logic is the same.

They have no idea how he would react to Joff dying. Maybe he suspects them even if he can't prove it His intelligence is renowned over the 7 kingdoms. It's just too many variables when you know in Joff you've already got a sure thing. It's not perfect, but it's under control. If they keep him that way long enough for Margaery to have a son, that's the way I would've went.

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How did they? Because she did not TALK very much? It was precisely her nonverbal acting that makes people praise her, and that is the more difficult part where she could sparkle

I get the point of it - if you thought the rest of your family was dead (and she does), and you were being held hostage and married into a family whom you hated and who would just as well you were dead now that the war's one and there's no one to ransom you to, you'd try to stay in the background too. Sansa is a background character now because her character wants to be.

Side question: we never get to see Olenna putting the poison in the wine, do we? Only her taking the gem. Right?

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Sansa is a background character now because her character wants to be.

That's nonsensical. Sansa has a story going on here, and the show cut it. She keeps her head low, but that doesn't mean the show itself should ignore her.

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That's nonsensical. Sansa has a story going on here, and the show cut it. She keeps her head low, but that doesn't mean the show itself should ignore her.

I don't think it's nonsensical at all. Maybe it is in your opinion, but I truly disagree. I feel like the story told in the books is being conveyed visually in ways the books couldn't - through her not only keeping her head low as in the books, but showing it as someone who is keeping her head low.

They did cut the Dontos storyline, but I see why they did it - it was readable in the books but in the TV show it would have both gotten confusing and made it far easier for viewers to guess that something was going to be up with her at the wedding (in the book, despite the Dontos storyline, I honestly had no idea stuff would hit the fan quite the way it did - but I feel that doing the same thing in the TV show would have had a much different effect).

I also think all this quiet acting through facial expressions is going to pay off when her storyline develops later...which I'm pretty sure GRRM said it would.

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I must needs agree.

Joff would have tortured Marge, mayhaps. And if not, he would have threatened to cross certain Tyrell niceties, as was on display at the wedding itself.

The Queen of Thorns would not have sat still for this.

I agree. I'm not sure Margaery was in on it (I don't remember if the books say so). I could see a young protege Margaery thinking she could control Joffrey indefinitely, but an older, more experienced Olenna knowing that that was likely not the case. I mean, Cersei thought she could control him too...

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but in the TV show it would have both gotten confusing

How?

The Dontos storyline is important for giving Sansa some agency and insuring she doesn't just sit around for two seasons (i.e., what actually happened on the show because they cut it). It also has various thematic threads about Sansa's changing views on knighthood, etc., but the show has pretty much wholly jettisoned that stuff, between the loss of her interactions with both Dontos and the Hound.

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The general reaction I've seen from unsullied viewers who have generally disliked Sansa has been remarkably positive for this episode. And I think that is in large part due to Sophie Turner's spectacular acting. I loved someone's comment from the last page about Sophie's face being a canvas. She conveys so much with only her eyes.



I am still a little bummed by the fact that they've removed Sansa's agency regarding her active role in her own escape, but I do not agree that she has been relegated to furniture. Her survival in King's Landing has been completely determined by her ability to internalize everything, to maintain her inner strength and grace.



Anyway. I think we can all agree that from this point on, Sansa will not be furniture. She's going to be sharing a very major subplot in the series from here on out, including a location that will predominantly focus on her and Littlefinger.



Regarding Margaery: I think by the end of Joffrey's little tirade, it became absolute clear that Margaery does not have the control over him that she initially thought. She keeps doing her best to pull him back, but the whole War of the 5 Kings debacle just kind of showed her increasing annoyance with him. That was Joffrey acting in front of everyone in the court. Imagine how he would have been behind closed doors. All it takes for Joffrey is one imagined slight.



Margaery is good but she's not that good, she's still learning ... as has been demonstrated by the QoT in the first episode of this season ... and from the glimpse we got in the preview for the next episode.


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Anyway. I think we can all agree that from this point on, Sansa will not be furniture.

That remains to be seen, given the writers' track record. She could just as easily end up as Littlefinger's prop now that her stint as a prop for Tyrion and co. is done.

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