furiousmoose Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 She was famously beautiful. Something happened to her at Harrenhal, and the implication is that it was rape. She had a child about the right amount of time after that. She was not married, so it was not a legit child. And we know Aerys did something nasty at Harrenhal. So no it is not that random. It is possible. Once again, the strongest evidence for a significant event taking place with Ashara at Harenhall goes through Ned Stark, not Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 Once again, the strongest evidence for a significant event taking place with Ashara at Harenhall goes through Ned Stark, not Aerys.Not at all true.She turned to someone with the name Stark. The words "turned to" or "looked to" generally mean when someone is in trouble they turn to someone for help. So she was already in some kind of distress or difficulty when whichever Stark it was she turned to became involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 She was famously beautiful. Something happened to her at Harrenhal, and the implication is that it was rape. She had a child about the right amount of time after that. She was not married, so it was not a legit child. And we know Aerys did something nasty at Harrenhal. So no it is not that random. It is possible. We do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousmoose Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Not at all true.She turned to someone with the name Stark. The words "turned to" or "looked to" generally mean when someone is in trouble they turn to someone for help. So she was already in some kind of distress or difficulty when whichever Stark it was she turned to became involved.To which telling of the story are you referring to because the only one I am familiar with is the one the Reeds tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Not at all true.She turned to someone with the name Stark. The words "turned to" or "looked to" generally mean when someone is in trouble they turn to someone for help. So she was already in some kind of distress or difficulty when whichever Stark it was she turned to became involved. I see what you're saying, and I suppose there is room for the man she "looked to" to be separate from the man who dishonored her, but Barristan's phrasing doesn't indicate a third party. "But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?" Once again, the strongest evidence for a significant event taking place with Ashara at Harenhall goes through Ned Stark, not Aerys. I'd say there's more evidence for Brandon. All we know is Ned danced with her after her brother talked to Ashara on his behalf. However, we know Brandon had a kink for deflowering girls (liked the look of blood on his sword). That coupled with what we know of Ned's character makes Brandon a likelier candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 Brandon is another possibility, but one that has been discussed quite a bit. This thread is about the Aerys idea.As for Barristan, he studiously avoids thinking about the negatives of the Kings he has served, so all we really have from him is omissions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousmoose Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 I see what you're saying, and I suppose there is room for the man she "looked to" to be separate from the man who dishonored her, but Barristan's phrasing doesn't indicate a third party. "But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?" I'd say there's more evidence for Brandon. All we know is Ned danced with her after her brother talked to Ashara on his behalf. However, we know Brandon had a kink for deflowering girls (liked the look of blood on his sword). That coupled with what we know of Ned's character makes Brandon a likelier candidate.Well its after "his" brother talked to Ashara not her and I think thats why we assume it was Ned not Brandon. Brandon wouldnt require someone to speak for him. And what Stark brother would talk to her? Not Ned for Brandon certainly his honor wouldnt allow it...Benjen was too young. That leaves Brandon. And only Brandong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 Let me be clear.Long before I ever visited forums, and after reading the books twice I never ONCE thought that Ashara was dishonoured by a Stark. The way it was worded said to me that she looked to a Stark for help. Someone ELSE likely dishonoured her, whatever Barristan meant by that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousmoose Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Let me be clear.Long before I ever visited forums, and after reading the books twice I never ONCE thought that Ashara was dishonoured by a Stark. The way it was worded said to me that she looked to a Stark for help. Someone ELSE likely dishonoured her, whatever Barristan meant by that.Being completely sincere, what Ashara reference are you referring to. I only remember the one the Reeds refer to but I know there are others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 Being completely sincere, what Ashara reference are you referring to. I only remember the one the Reeds refer to but I know there are others.All Ashara references. We only have bits and pieces of incomplete or unelaborated memories shared by various characters to try to understand Ashara and whatever happened at Harrenhal.Barristan shares some memories. Jamie shares some. Ned shares some. And Meera shares some things her father told her, yes, but nothing Meera says seems to have anything to do with Ashara. Meera's stories are related to Lyanna and Rhaegar and how they met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Barristan shares some memories. Jamie shares some. Ned shares some. And Meera shares some things her father told her, yes, but nothing Meera says seems to have anything to do with Ashara. Meera's stories are related to Lyanna and Rhaegar and how they met. Meera names every dancer who danced with Ashara during the dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogdevil Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 i think the fact that Barristan the Old thinks of her as being "dishonoured" and possibly "mad with grief" over the one that dishonoured her shows she is was not raped. the wording is vague in regards to whether or not the man who dishonoured her is dead or simply unnattainable now, but it is pretty clear that she was a willing participant in the affair. Barristan's retelling (and the reeds) really don't leave room for a rape scenario. Personally i subscribe to the theory that Brandon seduced her looking for a one night fling and she fell in love with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 Meera names every dancer who danced with Ashara during the dance.She did not actually name them all no. There was a KG member for example. Not named. And dancing is not dishonouring, so that doesn't tell us anything about what happened to her. It merely gives us clues who she was friendly with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousmoose Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 All Ashara references. We only have bits and pieces of incomplete or unelaborated memories shared by various characters to try to understand Ashara and whatever happened at Harrenhal.Barristan shares some memories. Jamie shares some. Ned shares some. And Meera shares some things her father told her, yes, but nothing Meera says seems to have anything to do with Ashara. Meera's stories are related to Lyanna and Rhaegar and how they met. Wait....what? Meera's story concerns Ned and Ashara more than any other references we have been given. Besides the suicide story this is the major tale that includes her story. How do you "figure" this tale isnt significant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Well its after "his" brother talked to Ashara not her and I think thats why we assume it was Ned not Brandon. Brandon wouldnt require someone to speak for him. And what Stark brother would talk to her? Not Ned for Brandon certainly his honor wouldnt allow it...Benjen was too young. That leaves Brandon. And only Brandong Brandon spoke to Ashara for Ned, but because he's kind of an ass, he probably went for it with Ashara anyway, even knowing his little brother liked her (and being betrothed). I'm just saying it's more fitting with Brandon's character to dishonor her than Ned's, and Barristan's accounts all purposely keep it vague with "Stark." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 i think the fact that Barristan the Old thinks of her as being "dishonoured" and possibly "mad with grief" over the one that dishonoured her shows she is was not raped. the wording is vague in regards to whether or not the man who dishonoured her is dead or simply unnattainable now, but it is pretty clear that she was a willing participant in the affair. Barristan's retelling (and the reeds) really don't leave room for a rape scenario. Personally i subscribe to the theory that Brandon seduced her looking for a one night fling and she fell in love with him.That doesn't explain why she was "looking to" anyone. Barristan seems to think she needed to look to someone, the way it was phrased. A fling is not something one needs. It is not like women go into heat and need to find a mate, any mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousmoose Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 She did not actually name them all no. There was a KG member for example. Not named. And dancing is not dishonouring, so that doesn't tell us anything about what happened to her. It merely gives us clues who she was friendly with. Also consider what would be dishonoring from her pov. Because premarital sex wasnt dishonoring according to Dornish standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 Brandon spoke to Ashara for Ned, but because he's kind of an ass, he probably went for it with Ashara anyway, even knowing his little brother liked her (and being betrothed). I'm just saying it's more fitting with Brandon's character to dishonor her than Ned's, and Barristan's accounts all purposely keep it vague with "Stark."Barristan's account does NOT prove that Ashara was dishonoured by a Stark at all. Ned OR Brandon. She "looked to" a Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Eric Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 She did not actually name them all no. There was a KG member for example. Not named. And dancing is not dishonouring, so that doesn't tell us anything about what happened to her. It merely gives us clues who she was friendly with. You said nothing Meera said has anything to do with Ashara, which is blatantly untrue. She danced with Oberyn Jon Connington Ned Stark Ser Barristan/Arthur Dayne She also spoke with Brandon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted April 14, 2014 Author Share Posted April 14, 2014 You said nothing Meera said has anything to do with Ashara, which is blatantly untrue. She danced with OberynJon ConningtonNed StarkSer Barristan/Arthur Dayne She also spoke with Brandon.Yes, but my point was that tells us nothing at all about what happened to her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.