Stannis is not iron.

[ecchirebirth]

He serves just deserts, there's even a shit ton of people he rewards. Prideful I don't think so, he takes no glory for even the good things he does and does some shady things which he even admits and hints at that he will pay a price in the end.

Fair enough. Despite my dislike of him, I deeply admire the way he dealt with Davos. Still say he's grumpy though.

[Stormland's Fury]

Also ... I may as well get this off my chest now. Melisandre is misleading him. Horrifically.

Problem is, Mel doesn't realize it. She's basically the very worst type of fundamentalist, made even more frightening by the fact she has real magical power.

The whole Azor Ahai prophecy stinks to me ... and the burning of living people as offerings ... that is not the request of a 'good' god to me.

Yeah she 's blinded by her fanaticism. Meanwhile Stannis is still skeptic, but finally had a reason to get some time off from her.

[Stormland's Fury]

Except it's not about rewards; he is the Heir, he is given the Heirs seat. Does he really need a pat on the head and a cookie for holding the castle? If so, then he has some serious inferiority issues.

Regardless, based on everything I've read without drinking Stannis Kool-Aid, I think if Robert had put Renly in Dragonstone, then he would be complaining about that being the heirs seat and how he should have got it.

Explain to me again why this has any relevance to Joffrey and Tommen?

[Queen of Whores]

Fair enough. Despite my dislike of him, I deeply admire the way he dealt with Davos. Still say he's grumpy though.

He wouldn't be Stannis or loved as much if he wasn't his typical grumpy self :D

[Stormland's Fury]

Fair enough. Despite my dislike of him, I deeply admire the way he dealt with Davos. Still say he's grumpy though.

Grumpy yes, even a bit cynical. But lines about him not liking Ned Stark but still respecting him and wanting to bring his murderers to justice, tells a whole lot about him.

[Rehn]

Explain to me again why this has any relevance to Joffrey and Tommen?

Stannis would complain about anything Robert did, he was looking for something to complain about.

What Robert did made the most sense; put his heir on Dragonstone, and give Storm's End to the remaining brother. If Robert had given Stannis nothing, and Stannis felt he deserved something because he held a castle, then if Robert had said "Nah, we're gonna wait and give it to my kids", Stannis would have took THAT for a slight.

We're talking about a man willing to allow people to be burnt alive to further his own goals, regardless of any crime they may have commited. He cares soooo much about the realm tho.

[Queen of Whores]

We're talking about a man willing to allow people to be burnt alive to further his own goals, regardless of any crime they may have commited. He cares soooo much about the realm tho.

He only burned traitors and cannibals, and while burning Alester Florent (a confessed traitor) did further his goals, it also ensured he could save the Wall and Night's Watch, which in turn saved the realm. So I guess he is really looking to further the goals of the realm. But you don't see it that way do you? Any slightly positive or selfless thing to do with Stannis is false, isn't it?

[Rehn]

He only burned traitors and cannibals, and while burning Alester Florent (a confessed traitor) did further his goals, it also ensured he could save the Wall and Night's Watch, which in turn saved the realm. So I guess he is really looking to further the goals of the realm. But you don't see it that way do you? Any slightly positive or selfless thing to do with Stannis is false, isn't it?

His right hand man(and seemingly only person worth a damn in his entire retinue)shipped off Edric, why, again?

He's willing to allow people to be burnt, period, it doesn't matter what crime they've commited, no one should be burnt alive. I also like the way he honorably and fairly dealt with Penrose(or Renly, for that matter), and cursing those he couldn't beat in the field. Such a good guy.

[Queen of Whores]

His right hand man(and seemingly only person worth a damn in his entire retinue)shipped off Edric, why, again?

He's willing to allow people to be burnt, period, it doesn't matter what crime they've commited, no one should be burnt alive. I also like the way he honorably and fairly dealt with Penrose(or Renly, for that matter), and cursing those he couldn't beat in the field. Such a good guy.

Same goes for Daenerys. She's willing to have people burned and crucified, so regardless of the crime, she's evil too right?

Penrose and Renly were both traitors and died for it. End of story. The means of their death and the relationship between them is irrelevant. Also, I'd hardly say it's honourable of Renly to intend on having Stannis killed in battle, either. Stannis was very fair with Renly and Penrose. He offered Renly a full pardon, his old seat back on the council, and to make him his current heir. Renly spat in his face so to speak. Stannis also offered Penrose a long time to consider surrendering, and he promises him and his men would not be harmed if they did. Penrose also spat in his face. How were Stannis' offers not fair?

[Boarsbane]

Same goes for Daenerys. She's willing to have people burned and crucified, so regardless of the crime, she's evil too right?

Penrose and Renly were both traitors and died for it. End of story. The means of their death and the relationship between them is irrelevant. Also, I'd hardly say it's honourable of Renly to intend on having Stannis killed in battle, either. Stannis was very fair with Renly and Penrose. He offered Renly a full pardon, his old seat back on the council, and to make him his current heir. Renly spat in his face so to speak. Stannis also offered Penrose a long time to consider surrendering, and he promises him and his men would not be harmed if they did. Penrose also spat in his face. How were Stannis' offers not fair?

Killing someone in battle is a tad more honorable than sending a magic shadowbaby to kill them in their camp. Renly and Penrose were very fair with Stannis as well, Renly offered to pardon Stannis for attacking him and even give him Storm's End, even though Renly knew he could easily have Stannis' host smashed against Storm's End walls. Penrose offered to face Stannis or one of his knights in single combat, but of course the so called "Mannis" is too afraid to face an old man in single combat and would rather spawn more demons to be on the safe side.

[Queen of Whores]

Killing someone in battle is a tad more honorable than sending a magic shadowbaby to kill them in their camp. Renly and Penrose were very fair with Stannis as well, Renly offered to pardon Stannis for attacking him and even give him Storm's End, even though Renly knew he could easily have Stannis' host smashed against Storm's End walls. Penrose offered to face Stannis or one of his knights in single combat, but of course the so called "Mannis" is too afraid to face an old man in single combat and would rather spawn more demons to be on the safe side.

The blind Stannis hate here is ridiculous. Screw this, I'm going too sleep.

[Rehn]

Same goes for Daenerys. She's willing to have people burned and crucified, so regardless of the crime, she's evil too right?

Penrose and Renly were both traitors and died for it. End of story. The means of their death and the relationship between them is irrelevant. Also, I'd hardly say it's honourable of Renly to intend on having Stannis killed in battle, either.

Did I say Dany wasn't going the same way as Aerys?

Penrose challenged Stannis to bring a champion to fight him in single combat, he wouldn't.

Stannis would have had to be killed on the field of battle, Stannis would never yield.

What is more honorable, killing an opponent in the field when both sides are actively aware of the combat, or by using a form of blood magic to send an invisible(and as far as we know invincible) murderer?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

If Robert crowned himself even if it meant bypassing Viserys (who was still in Westeros at the time), why shouldn't Renly do the same? He was the one who would have ended doing all the work, and as far as he knew, he would have made a considerably better king. (Though that matter is up to debate)

<snip

Maybe because Stannis is not eight years old like Viserys was.

As to Dragonstone vs Storm's End, Stannis didn't want to be Robert's heir and didn't want Dragonstone. At that point it was conceivable (no pun intended) that Robert would have heirs, particularly if you consider that he'd already fathered bastards. Stannis wanted the home he'd known since childhood, the place that held memories of his parents. The keep he'd defended during his brother's rebellion. It's entirely understandable.

Renly was totally copper. Shiny, admired, looks great but in the long run will not hold up. Trying to win a throne that's not yours, without ever going to battle, is stupid. Instead of making a move on KL or anyplace else, Renly had his army camped out having tournaments and feasts. That's not a ruler, that's a guy who wants to play court. Nice guy, capable to an extent, I really have nothing against him, but he would not have made a good king.

[Rehn]

Maybe because Stannis is not eight years old like Viserys was.

As to Dragonstone vs Storm's End, Stannis didn't want to be Robert's heir and didn't want Dragonstone. At that point it was conceivable (no pun intended) that Robert would have heirs, particularly if you consider that he'd already fathered bastards. Stannis wanted the home he'd known since childhood, the place that held memories of his parents. The keep he'd defended during his brother's rebellion. It's entirely understandable.

Renly was totally copper. Shiny, admired, looks great but in the long run will not hold up. Trying to win a throne that's not yours, without ever going to battle, is stupid. Instead of making a move on KL or anyplace else, Renly had his army camped out having tournaments and feasts. That's not a ruler, that's a guy who wants to play court. Nice guy, capable to an extent, I really have nothing against him, but he would not have made a good king.

It doesn't matter what Stannis wants, he is the heir and he gets the heirs seat. The problem is he believes it's because "Robert doesn't like me *sniff*", when we have George telling us straight up why Robert gave it to him.

The plan Renly(Or Olenna) had was genius, slowly come up the road, let the Starks and Lannisters weaken each other, the City to continue to become angry with the Throne, and then show up with his army fully intact, and the resources of the Reach. The City would have fallen from the inside before he'd ever have to spill blood simply by promising bread. He'd then be able to deal with the Starks or Lannisters if they didn't bend the knee as his forces were untouched by the war at that time.

It's the variable of "Stannis is going to cheat using magic" that screwed the plan over. I'm not a Renly fan(I actually am Anti-Baratheon as a whole), but his coming up the road slowly makes a lot of sense.

[RoamingRonin]

Breaking = dying

Bending = subduing to your enemies, a.k.a giving up.

Not sure how one could misinterpret that.

Finally someone gets it.

[Stormland's Fury]

It doesn't matter what Stannis wants, he is the heir and he gets the heirs seat. The problem is he believes it's because "Robert doesn't like me *sniff*", when we have George telling us straight up why Robert gave it to him.

The plan Renly(Or Olenna) had was genius, slowly come up the road, let the Starks and Lannisters weaken each other, the City to continue to become angry with the Throne, and then show up with his army fully intact, and the resources of the Reach. The City would have fallen from the inside before he'd ever have to spill blood simply by promising bread. He'd then be able to deal with the Starks or Lannisters if they didn't bend the knee as his forces were untouched by the war at that time.

It's the variable of "Stannis is going to cheat using magic" that screwed the plan over. I'm not a Renly fan(I actually am Anti-Baratheon as a whole), but his coming up the road slowly makes a lot of sense.

Seems to me that you are whining at anything Stannis does.

[Stormland's Fury]

The blind Stannis hate here is ridiculous. Screw this, I'm going too sleep.

I am all in analyzing and criticizing my favorite characters myself. But some people apparently only can argue like 5-year olds. "Stannis is a meanie"

[Sullen]

Maybe because Stannis is not eight years old like Viserys was.

As to Dragonstone vs Storm's End, Stannis didn't want to be Robert's heir and didn't want Dragonstone. At that point it was conceivable (no pun intended) that Robert would have heirs, particularly if you consider that he'd already fathered bastards. Stannis wanted the home he'd known since childhood, the place that held memories of his parents. The keep he'd defended during his brother's rebellion. It's entirely understandable.

Renly was totally copper. Shiny, admired, looks great but in the long run will not hold up. Trying to win a throne that's not yours, without ever going to battle, is stupid. Instead of making a move on KL or anyplace else, Renly had his army camped out having tournaments and feasts. That's not a ruler, that's a guy who wants to play court. Nice guy, capable to an extent, I really have nothing against him, but he would not have made a good king.

No matter Viserys's age, the rightful thing would have been giving him the Throne... not crowning him because they thought he wouldn't be an appropriate King is exactly what Renly does when he plans to jump over both Tommen and Stannis in the line of succession. (Stannis being loathed by the strongest region of the Kingdoms and Tommen being too young)

And Renly planned to go to battles, he was just looking the minimize them to keep his armies strong. The tourneys and the feasts were also a brilliant plan, why rush King's Landing when marching slowly greatly weakens both the rebellious Northmen and the treacherous Lannisters, while it also allows King's Landing to grow even more discontent due to the lack of food they would have normally gotten from the Roseroad. Rushing King's Landing would have been foolish, it would have forced Tywin to disengage from the Northmen and make dealing with Renly his priority, and he would have faced a King's Landing with a considerably higher morale than if he had taken his time.

Renly had won, politically and militarily, before the first battle even took place. There is nothing to suggest that he wouldn't have held up in the long term.

[devilrob6]

No matter Viserys's age, the rightful thing would have been giving him the Throne... not crowning him because they thought he wouldn't be an appropriate King is exactly what Renly does when he plans to jump over both Tommen and Stannis in the line of succession. (Stannis being loathed by the strongest region of the Kingdoms and Tommen being too young)

And Renly planned to go to battles, he was just looking the minimize them to keep his armies strong. The tourneys and the feasts were also a brilliant plan, why rush King's Landing when marching slowly greatly weakens both the rebellious Northmen and the treacherous Lannisters, while it also allows King's Landing to grow even more discontent due to the lack of food they would have normally gotten from the Roseroad. Rushing King's Landing would have been foolish, it would have forced Tywin to disengage from the Northmen and make dealing with Renly his priority, and he would have faced a King's Landing with a considerably higher morale than if he had taken his time.

Renly had won, politically and militarily, before the first battle even took place. There is nothing to suggest that he wouldn't have held up in the long term.

I think that Renly (or Stannis if he had won the Blackwater), would have been given the same treatment as Kevan and Pycelle. Varys would at some point have needed to get rid of them. While Renly would have probably taken the throne if Stannis had not intervened, i don't think he would have kept it in the long term.

[Light a wight tonight]

Stannis is not iron, Renly was not copper, and Robert was not true steel.

If you ask me, Noye was full of shit.

Haven't had a good laugh here for a while. I do agree about Noye's assessment of the Baratheon Boys. He had an epic death, though.