The (attempted) murder of Jon was legally justifiable.

[Bedwyck]

You can't stab a guy in the back in the midst of a diversion and call it "justified". To have a justified homicide, you would do it the way Jon executed Janos Slynt. Call the guy out for his crime and carry out sentence. What Bowen Marsh and crew did was nothing short of (attempted) murder.

The problem is. You cant formally arrest someone who has absolute power because they have absolute power.

Im glad you brought up Jon's execution of Janos Slynt. Jon killed him as punishment for disobeying his command. If instead, Bowen Marsh would have told Jon that he should no longer be Lord Commander and tried to arrest him, that would have been the highest form of disobedience/defiance of the LC and Marsh's head may have well been the next one on the chopping block (quite literally).

[Ingelheim]

doesn't Jon say something to the effect that Stannis brought them an army and the Lannisters/Baratheons/Crown sent them Janos Slynt? Stannis helped defend the wall (ie the realm) against a wildling threat, as well as providing men to build and garrison some of the casltes alonf the wall. I also dunno if Jon's response to a letter from Tommen would be the same as a letter from the newly legitimized bastard son of the man who killed my half brother and step mom...vows or not.

If Tommen sent the same letter that Ramsay sent, he would react the same way. He would try to defend the NW against any threat

[Bedwyck]

Let me clarify what my main argument in the OP was so that those who would dispute it can do so directly.

Jon secretly sending Mance (who led an army of Wildlings against the Wall) to steal away the new-made Lord of Winterfell's bride was what got him killed. This is a horrible, self-destructive move, for the Nights Watch. He put the entire Nights Watch in jeopardy for the sake of his little sister. Im sorry, but from the NW perspective there is no excusing a Lord Commander who does that, especially one who does it behind all of his brothers backs.

You can make an excellent argument that this drastic action by itself is evidence of Jon forsaking his responsibilities as LC and that he needs to be removed. The issue is who's going to tell Jon that he needs to step down? Whoever does so would be risking their lives as Jon could give the order and they may very well be killed. Bowen Marsh may well have thought that killing him was his only option.

[Greywolf2375]

Let me clarify what my main argument in the OP was so that those who would dispute it can do so directly.

Jon secretly sending Mance (who led an army of Wildlings against the Wall) to steal away the new-made Lord of Winterfell's bride was what got him killed. This is a horrible, self-destructive move, for the Nights Watch. He put the entire Nights Watch in jeopardy for the sake of his little sister. Im sorry, but from the NW perspective there is no excusing a Lord Commander who does that, especially one who does it behind all of his brothers backs.

You can make an excellent argument that this drastic action by itself is evidence of Jon forsaking his responsibilities as LC and that he needs to be removed. The issue is who's going to tell Jon that he needs to step down? Whoever does so would be risking their lives as Jon could give the order and they may very well be killed. Bowen Marsh may well have thought that killing him was his only option.

Again, my guess would be whatever leaders council there is would be able to have that authority. Just because Marsh thought killing him would solve the problem doesn't make it justifiable. That's like saying a General can't be arrested by a lower ranking office, the only way to remove them when they break the law is to kill them. We may not have defined procedures from GRRM about the removal process, but I can't see that the only way to remove the LC is by murder.

[MyLittleFinger]

Should have hanged the traitor.

Lord Commander Janos Slynt would have hanged the traitor, he knew the black bastards warg heart. Part wildling, part warg, part bastard and all treachery.

[Queen of Whores]

Should have hanged the traitor.

Lord Commander Janos Slynt would have hanged the traitor, he knew the black bastards warg heart. Part wildling, part warg, part bastard and all treachery.

I see Ser Alliser Thorne is posting now :Lol:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Isn't the NW supposed to stay out of the affairs of the Seven Kingdoms?? And isn't Jon constantly supporting Stannis?

And forking over hostages that the Boltons demand is staying out of the affairs of the Seven Kingdoms, how? Deferring to the Boltons over Stannis is still a political act, is it not?

Everyone pitching a fit over Jon's meddling conveniently forgets that he's interfering no matter what he does. He's fucked either way, so he might as well side with the least-shitty faction available. I don't see any of you people complaining about Bowen interfering in politics when he was trying to get Janos Slynt picked for Lord Commander because it's what Tywin wanted. Turning the Watch into the Lannisters' bitch is OK, but Jon aiding Stannis after Stannis is the only one to aid the Watch is over the line? Give me a freaking break.

It works both ways. Get with the program.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon secretly sending Mance (who led an army of Wildlings against the Wall) to steal away the new-made Lord of Winterfell's bride was what got him killed.

Kindly point me to the passage where Jon explicitly sends Mance to Winterfell. You can't, because he didn't. And unless I'm mistaken, Mance left before the wedding, meaning, "Arya" wasn't anyone's bride yet. As far as Jon knew, she was on the road, in neutral territory. But if you think that women are cattle and become someone's property once they're married or engaged, just say so.

[Waylin Stark]

I think his decision to attack Ramsay can be justified as Ramsay threatened the NW and Jon directly.

But he did help tons of wildlings who are considered enemies, and if it gets out that he let Mance live, he'll be considered guilty by all.

And there are people who still might try to use the fact that he went undercover as a wildling to get to him.

[Castle Black]

Wow. I really don't understand those of you who are defending Bowen Marsh and condemning Jon Snow. First of all, and I may be way off base, but Jon is either a love him or hate him character. Some people for some reason just don't like him, and I feel like many are basing the justification of his attempted assassination on this reason alone. Now, lets get to the question at hand. I honestly believe Jon did absolutely nothing to break his vows. Ever. You can go all the way back to when he was riding with the free folk. He told NW secrets and locations to the Mance and also repeatedly banged Ygritte, All of this was done because Qhorin Halfhand, a senior member of the NW and Jon's superior, ordered him to not balk at anything that was asked. Yes, Jon obviously enjoyed being with Ygritte, but it was also done to keep up the facade. As soon as Jon had the chance to flee to return to the wall, he did. Now, lets get to his actions as LC of the NW (I probably shouldn't even mention that he led the defense of castle black an saved the entire North from the free folk invasion). So what are the main things his critics believe justify Bowen Marsh and others trying to kill him:

1) In a way embracing or not hating the free folk way of life - he rode with them, and understands in the end that all groups of people have their good and their evil. He realizes the free folk are not the enemy of the NW. Too bad others couldn't see.

2) Letting the free folk south of the wall - once again, he knows they are not the true enemy. Only the Others are. The more people north of wall, the larger army of wights there will be. Only the morons of the NW order, like Bowen and his minions, failed to see this.

3) Allowing concessions and granting lands and castle to Stannis - as far as Jon is concerned, Stannis is the only king who gave a shit about the watch in its time of need. He was now the king at the wall. Keeping all of Stannis' men at CB was just too impractical. It also helped man other castles along the wall for better defense.

4) Manning other NW castles with free folk - once againm can't keep everyone couped up together. Also eases the minds of some of his NW brothers who couldn't tolerate the free folk. Also adds in defense of the wall.

5) Sending Val to treat with Tormund Giantsbane - a great idea from Jon. It worked. It was unlikely Tormund would treat with anyone else. Helped reduce the number of potential wights and brought a strong warrior south of the wall to join in the impending war with the Others.

6) Giving food to the free folk - I guess having a soul is a reason to be assassinated.

7) Allowing free folk to take the vows of the NW - only makes the NW stronger. If someone is willing to take the vow, then he should be welcomed at once.

8) Deciding to answer Ramsey's letter by marching South - this is definitely the most controversial one. Some may say that Jon is getting the NW directly involved in the affairs of the realm. I completely disagree. Ramsey threatened the NW and plan to destroy it. As we all know, CB cannot be defended from an army marching North. Jon did not force any man of the NW to join him, only the free folk. Besides, anyone who is actually trying to say that Jon should listen to whatever Ramsey says is probably a fan boy of that psycho.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

What Jon did was done in all the good intentions and logic, even if it meant to break rules. But, that implied to radically changed everybody's point of view about how society works: the wildings were the enemy and now, they needed to be protected and work all together. It is like a case in which he suddenly abolishes slavery in an environment where slavery is the rule.

(yeah, I did that).

I can understand why Marsh did what he did, if indeed he did it "for the watch", Jon was helping "savages" to pass through the Wall and set them free in Westeros. If the wildings ever found out in WoW that Jon is dead (even if he returns, they don't know that), what keeps them from escape South pillaging once they realise the guy they made an alliance with is dead?

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

And forking over hostages that the Boltons demand is staying out of the affairs of the Seven Kingdoms, how? Deferring to the Boltons over Stannis is still a political act, is it not?

Everyone pitching a fit over Jon's meddling conveniently forgets that he's interfering no matter what he does. He's fucked either way, so he might as well side with the least-shitty faction available. I don't see any of you people complaining about Bowen interfering in politics when he was trying to get Janos Slynt picked for Lord Commander because it's what Tywin wanted. Turning the Watch into the Lannisters' bitch is OK, but Jon aiding Stannis after Stannis is the only one to aid the Watch is over the line? Give me a freaking break.

It works both ways. Get with the program.

Came here to say this.

[El Guapo]

Wow. I really don't understand those of you who are defending Bowen Marsh and condemning Jon Snow. First of all, and I may be way off base, but Jon is either a love him or hate him character. Some people for some reason just don't like him, and I feel like many are basing the justification of his attempted assassination on this reason alone.

I know I am.

[juanml82]

Kindly point me to the passage where Jon explicitly sends Mance to Winterfell. You can't, because he didn't. And unless I'm mistaken, Mance left before the wedding, meaning, "Arya" wasn't anyone's bride yet. As far as Jon knew, she was on the road, in neutral territory. But if you think that women are cattle and become someone's property once they're married or engaged, just say so.

He didn't send him. Melissandre did, after revealing Mance to him and informing him of their plan. And Jon's duty was to arrest the traitor and execute him for good.

Which he didn't, because he chose love over duty.

As for Stannis, Jon can't fight against him - he just doesn't have the men. Stannis can seize the Wall and be done with it. If anything, Jon manages to restrain him from doing so. Afterwards, though, he is using Stannis as his proxy - which, at first glance, he shouldn't do.

So, when Stannis tells him about his plan to march on the Dreadfort, Jon should say "Your call" and be done with it. When Tyco Nestoris asks to be brought to Stannis, Jon shouldn't have given him Night Watch rangers as an escort. Nestoris wants to reach Stannis? Fine, but the Watch doesn't get involved. There are two leaders of the Mountain Clans, let Nestoris hire escorts from them.

Of course, there is an issue: Jon can't flat out refuse Stannis. But if Stannis marches south and looses, the Boltons will go after the Watch. The NW got involved the moment they've opened their gates to Stannis.

[Castle Black]

I know I am.

Well then you really have no basis to even be in the discussion.

[El Guapo]

Well then you really have no basis to even be in the discussion.

I agree which is why I haven't added anything to the discussion.

[Castle Black]

He didn't send him. Melissandre did, after revealing Mance to him and informing him of their plan. And Jon's duty was to arrest the traitor and execute him for good.

Which he didn't, because he chose love over duty.

As for Stannis, Jon can't fight against him - he just doesn't have the men. Stannis can seize the Wall and be done with it. If anything, Jon manages to restrain him from doing so. Afterwards, though, he is using Stannis as his proxy - which, at first glance, he shouldn't do.

So, when Stannis tells him about his plan to march on the Dreadfort, Jon should say "Your call" and be done with it. When Tyco Nestoris asks to be brought to Stannis, Jon shouldn't have given him Night Watch rangers as an escort. Nestoris wants to reach Stannis? Fine, but the Watch doesn't get involved. There are two leaders of the Mountain Clans, let Nestoris hire escorts from them.

Of course, there is an issue: Jon can't flat out refuse Stannis. But if Stannis marches south and looses, the Boltons will go after the Watch. The NW got involved the moment they've opened their gates to Stannis.

Why should Jon give a shit. To him Stannis is the rightful king. He was the only one who aided the NW. From this point on he should be thought of as its king.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Wow. I really don't understand those of you who are defending Bowen Marsh and condemning Jon Snow. First of all, and I may be way off base, but Jon is either a love him or hate him character. Some people for some reason just don't like him, and I feel like many are basing the justification of his attempted assassination on this reason alone.

Jon is one of my fav. characters but that doesn't mean I don't understand the logic behind Marsh' actions. Marsh is a man who has known one truth all of his life: the wildings are the danger: they rape, pillage and murder. And Jon went beyond the Wall, lived among them, slept with one of them and returned saying "oh, we should help them and work all together". Those who follow Jon in the Wall are either young or men whose respect he already earned. For Marsh, he's just a kid who is betraying everything he knows, hence, the best is to kill him before the King realises he's helping Stannis and letting wildings go free in Westeros.

[Bedwyck]

Kindly point me to the passage where Jon explicitly sends Mance to Winterfell. You can't, because he didn't. And unless I'm mistaken, Mance left before the wedding, meaning, "Arya" wasn't anyone's bride yet. As far as Jon knew, she was on the road, in neutral territory. But if you think that women are cattle and become someone's property once they're married or engaged, just say so.

He does so at the suggestion of Melisandre, but he does so nonetheless. Since it was Melisandre's idea and glamor it happens in the chapter that is through her point of view. Here are some quotes from the chapter which will prove Jon sent him.

Melisandre suggests Mance find Arya. Mance replies "If your stiff-necked lord commander will allow it. Did your fires how you where to find this girl?" Do you really think Rattleshirt (Mance) could leave Castle Black without Jon's permission? And here is what Melisandre says to Jon after revealing "Rattleshirt's" true identity which is the quote to end the chapter, "There he stands, Lord Snow. Arya's deliverance. A gift from the Lord of Light.... and me." It is obviously implied that Jon gets full on board with the idea and lets him leave (supplies him with horses, lets the spear wives settled in Mole's Town join him, etc..)

Im going to ignore the allegation of sexism because thats just a cheap shot. We are talking about Westeros and most Lords in westeros would look at that exactly as I describe it, like hes trying to steal their bride away from them. Take it up with Martin if you have a problem with it.

Edit: Also I never said Jon explicitly sent him to Winterfell, although I think Jon knew he very well may end up there. Afterall that is where the wedding was going to be and Jon knew how Mance had posed as a singer in Winterfell before.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

He does so at the suggestion of Melisandre, but he does so nonetheless. Since it was Melisandre's idea and glamor it happens in the chapter that is through her point of view. Here are some quotes from the chapter which will prove Jon sent him.

Melisandre suggests Mance find Arya. Mance replies "If your stiff-necked lord commander will allow it. Did your fires how you where to find this girl?" Do you really think Rattleshirt (Mance) could leave Castle Black without Jon's permission? And here is what Melisandre says to Jon after revealing "Rattleshirt's" true identity which is the quote to end the chapter, "There he stands, Lord Snow. Arya's deliverance. A gift from the Lord of Light.... and me." It is obviously implied that Jon gets full on board with the idea and lets him leave (supplies him with horses, lets the spear wives settled in Mole's Town join him, etc..)

Im going to ignore the allegation of sexism because thats just a cheap shot. We are talking about Westeros and most Lords in westeros would look at that exactly as I describe it, like hes trying to steal their bride away from them. Take it up with Martin if you have a problem with it.

Show me where Jon sent Mance to Winterfell. At the time Mance leaves, Jon has every reason to think that "Arya" has already escaped and is on the road, in neutral territory. Acting as if Jon said, "Mance, I order you to go to Winterfell" is inaccurate and incredibly disingenuous.