The (attempted) murder of Jon was legally justifiable.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The NW got involved the moment they've opened their gates to Stannis.

After Stannis, and only Stannis, not Tywin, saved the Watch from being obliterated. "Thanks for saving us, now fuck off"?

[Roddy the Ruin]

After Stannis, and only Stannis, not Tywin, saved the Watch from being obliterated. "Thanks for saving us, now fuck off"?

if Jon asked Stannis to leave after saving them, Stannis would smile for the first time in forever and just laugh

[A Bastard Snow]

Actually its not.The Lord Commander has sole command over the entire NW.If Jon wanted too he could release members from their oath any Lord Commander can.Members of the Kingsguard are supposed to serve for life yet Barristan was released from service.All it takes is someone with power to say so.If Robb would have come to the wall and asked for Jon to be released from his oath he would have been simply because if he wasent Robb would have had the power to destroy the watch.

[Bedwyck]

Show me where Jon sent Mance to Winterfell. At the time Mance leaves, Jon has every reason to think that "Arya" has already escaped and is on the road, in neutral territory. Acting as if Jon said, "Mance, I order you to go to Winterfell" is inaccurate and incredibly disingenuous.

Point me to where I said Jon sent Mance to Winterfell. I didnt. i said he sent Mance to steal the new-made LORD of Winterfell's bride. You pointed out that technically, she wasnt his bride yet, but I really dont think that matters much. Its still going to be looked at as a grevious insult and provocation by the Wardens of the North and the Lord of Winterfell for stealing his bride no matter when she's taken from them (and it would be looked at that way by most any lord/house in the seven kingdoms. And Its not like Jon said, bring back Arya, but only if you can get her before the wedding. Mance tried to get her AFTER they were married.

You guys can stick up for Jon Snow, but please dont downplay the fact that he was CLEARLY meddling in affairs that NW LCs should not be meddling in. Its not like Stannis ordered/threatened him to do this either. This was him intervening of his own accord and risking the NW in the process. Whatever good intentions he had you cant deny he was skating on very thin ice and thats why he fell through.

Also, Jon doesnt think Arya escaped because he doesnt yet trust what Melisandre sees in her flames. If he did then he would have heeded her warning about "daggers in the dark", acted more cautiously, and avoided getting stabbed.

[Defeatarion]

Everyone saw something coming. Every Jon chapter in ADWD was him taking a risk and breaking the NW rules. I figured imprisonment, or Queen UpperLipHair doing something. the stabbing came as a surprise.

[juanml82]

Why should Jon give a shit. To him Stannis is the rightful king. He was the only one who aided the NW. From this point on he should be thought of as its king.

The Watch doesn't meddle in the affairs of the Seven Kingdoms. If to him Stannis is the rightful king, he still can't assist him.

But such a decision has consequences. It was a catch-22

Show me where Jon sent Mance to Winterfell. At the time Mance leaves, Jon has every reason to think that "Arya" has already escaped and is on the road, in neutral territory. Acting as if Jon said, "Mance, I order you to go to Winterfell" is inaccurate and incredibly disingenuous.

Are you serious here? Jon can not wash his hands of Mance's mission.

After Stannis, and only Stannis, not Tywin, saved the Watch from being obliterated. "Thanks for saving us, now fuck off"?

And that's why the didn't. And they got themselves in such a mess.

[Fire Eater]

Under the code of the Night's Watch, he broke his oath in a very serious way, and he was going to continue doing so. Not only did he deceptively free Mance Rayder, he now has put the entire Night's Watch at risk by bringing the wrath of the Warden of the North down upon them.

I really like Jon Snow. I think his actions are some of the most admirable of any character in aDwD, but Bowen Marsh acted well within the law.

Jon didn't deceptively free Mance Rayder, Mel did. Jon didn't know until after she revealed him. I agree sending Mance to WF was a bad idea. From what Mel told Jon, he could have just thought Mance was sent not to WF but just along the kingsroad to help an escaping Arya.

Jon didn't even leave CB when they left stabbed him, so he hadn't technically deserted yet.

As for meeting the Boltons in battle after pink letter, what else do es everyone expect him to do?

If he ignored it, then eventually the Boltons would come and pose a danger to everyone at CB. As to Ramsay's offer of mercy, this is the same offer he made to the Ironmen at Moat Cailin whose flayed corpses he nailed to posts along the kingsroad, and Roose made the same offer to squatters at WF, and then hanged them. They would also require Jon to break guest right with the people at CB.

And that's why the didn't. And they got themselves in such a mess.

What else did you expect them to do? Stannis has thrice the men the NW has as well. The realm was meddling in the NW from Stannis to Tywin.

[Jasta11]

It's damned if you do, damned if you don't, really.

Taking the NW vow to its absolute letter seems counter-productive to me. As Maester Aemon said in the show, if they did it they would have to behead most of the Watch because most went to Mole's Town for a quick tumble. Sure, hosting Stannis mean the Watch is no longer neutral, but he came to them and helped them. Sending him off seems very ingrate indeed, not to mention they practically do not have the force to do so.

As for the Pink Letter, the Watch was in direct danger if it is to be taken as 100% truth, with the Lord Commander being ordered to take part in the affairs of the North regardless (which is what handing over the hostages would have been). I'm pretty sure that the Watch is allowed to fight back if under attack from the south; anything else would be pure stupidity.

Sure, Jon didn't announce his decision in the best of manners. He should really have discussed it with his subordinates. But however illegal and bad for the Watch Jon's decision was, Bowen and co. stabbing the Lord Commander to death in broad daylight was way, way worse as well as moronic to the extreme. I'm pretty sure there are ways to lawfully depose a Lord Commander; Caesar'ing the hell out of him is most probably not one of the prefered methods. This isin't the Dothraki Sea. Or King's Landing.

[Light a wight tonight]

What Marsh did was mutiny, illegal in any military force, and in time of war it's punishable by death. So is attacking your commanding officer. If you want to get all legalistic about it.

And make no mistake Marsh & Friends will die. It may be after a trial, they may just be swarmed by Wildlings, or the Queen's Men may decide that as a Lannister supporter Marsh is an enemy and take him out on their own.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Are you serious here? Jon can not wash his hands of Mance's mission.

And that's why the didn't. And they got themselves in such a mess.

It's not Jon's fault that Mance went off the reservation. If Mance had posed the mission as him sneaking directly into Winterfell, Jon probably would have approached it differently than he did when he thought the girl had already escaped and was on the road.

And yeah you're right. "Don't save us from obliteration Stannis, we'd hate to be indebted to you in any way." Please.

I am curious though why you don't seem to have a problem with Bowen and Co. wanting Janos to be the LC to make Tywin happy. Isn't that meddling? If Stannis had wanted to be a real asshole, he couldn't made the new LC pick himself. He at least let them have an election. You think Tywin would have if he'd been there?

[Bedwyck]

Jon didn't deceptively free Mance Rayder, Mel did. Jon didn't know until after she revealed him. I agree sending Mance to WF was a bad idea. From what Mel told Jon, he could have just thought Mance was sent not to WF but just along the kingsroad to help an escaping Arya.

Jon didn't even leave CB when they left stabbed him, so he hadn't technically deserted yet.

As for meeting the Boltons in battle after pink letter, what else do es everyone expect him to do?

If he ignored it, then eventually the Boltons would come and pose a danger to everyone at CB. As to Ramsay's offer of mercy, this is the same offer he made to the Ironmen at Moat Cailin whose flayed corpses he nailed to posts along the kingsroad, and Roose made the same offer to squatters at WF, and then hanged them. They would also require Jon to break guest right with the people at CB.

What else did you expect them to do? Stannis has thrice the men the NW has as well. The realm was meddling in the NW from Stannis to Tywin.

When Jon found out about it he went right along with the deception, that means he's deceiving. And does it really matter where Jon thought Mance was going to go? Getting Arya back from the Bolton's and risking their wrath was the goal no matter where they took her from them. These little semantics do nothing to take away from what he did.

And as far as Jon having to respond and defend himself from Ramsay AFTER he was threatened. I dont disagree, but if he wouldnt have tried to take away Ramsay's bride then he never would have been threatened. He got HIMSELF into that situation. Lets not act like Ramsay just one day randomly decided to pick a fight with him.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon didn't deceptively free Mance Rayder, Mel did. Jon didn't know until after she revealed him. I agree sending Mance to WF was a bad idea. From what Mel told Jon, he could have just thought Mance was sent not to WF but just along the kingsroad to help an escaping Arya.

Jon did not send Mance to Winterfell. Honestly, where the hell are people getting this? At the time Jon allowed Mance to go on the mission, it was presented as retrieving Arya from the road. No one, anywhere, told Mance to go to Winterfell.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

When Jon found out about it he went right along with the deception, that means he's deceiving. And does it really matter where Jon thought Mance was going to go? Getting Arya back from the Bolton's and risking their wrath was the goal no matter where they took her from them. These little semantics do nothing to take away from what he did.

And as far as Jon having to respond and defend himself from Ramsay AFTER he was threatened. I dont disagree, but if he wouldnt have tried to take away Ramsay's bride then he never would have been threatened. He got HIMSELF into that situation. Lets not act like Ramsay just one day randomly decided to pick a fight with him.

Again, Jon is interfering no matter what he does. If he defers to the Boltons, that is just as much a political move as sheltering Stannis. It is impossible to please all people at all times, and no matter what Jon does, he is putting one faction above another. And bear in mind too that Cersei was going to send someone up to assassinate Jon well before any of the Bolton business had come up. The Lannisters made clear that they wanted Slynt named LC, and your hero Bowen argued in favor of him, specifically because it's what Tywin wanted. Where's your criticism for that bit of meddling?

I'd have much more patience and respect for the complaints of Jon's impartiality if these same complaints were ever leveled at the other people who acted politically with regards to the Watch. Funny though how it's always Jon's fault.

ETA: I'll put it this way: If your oath keeps you from protecting innocent people from psychopaths lest some spineless paper-pusher accuse you of being an oathbreaker, then perhaps it's a shitty oath that ought to be reexamined or even broken. And good God I think that's kind of the entire point. I think we're meant to look at oaths that make you turn a blind eye to sadistic pyromaniacs, baby killers and sadistic rapists and think, "What good are these oaths, anyway?"

[MyLittleFinger]

Actually its not.The Lord Commander has sole command over the entire NW.If Jon wanted too he could release members from their oath any Lord Commander can.Members of the Kingsguard are supposed to serve for life yet Barristan was released from service.All it takes is someone with power to say so.If Robb would have come to the wall and asked for Jon to be released from his oath he would have been simply because if he wasent Robb would have had the power to destroy the watch.

I'd like to see some examples of this because the only way anybody ever leaves the watch is losing their pulse or getting really lucky when running away...and you have to run North.

[Fire Eater]

Jon did not send Mance to Winterfell. Honestly, where the hell are people getting this? At the time Jon allowed Mance to go on the mission, it was presented as retrieving Arya from the road. No one, anywhere, told Mance to go to Winterfell.

Jon didn't deceptively free Mance Rayder, Mel did. Jon didn't know until after she revealed him. I agree sending Mance to WF was a bad idea. From what Mel told Jon, he could have just thought Mance was sent not to WF but just along the kingsroad to help an escaping Arya.

[Bedwyck]

Jon did not send Mance to Winterfell. Honestly, where the hell are people getting this? At the time Jon allowed Mance to go on the mission, it was presented as retrieving Arya from the road. No one, anywhere, told Mance to go to Winterfell.

You still havent shown me where I ever said that. And really, that's besides the point. Jon sent Mance to steal Ramsay's (the Lord of Winterfell) and son of Warden of the North's bride. The Boltons are not idiots. There is risk they'll catch them and find out who sent them no matter what location they try and take "Arya" away at.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

<snip>

Still not seeing where it says anyone deliberately sent Mance to Winterfell. Not even Melisandre.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You still havent shown me where I ever said that. And really, that's besides the point. Jon sent Mance to steal Ramsay's (the Lord of Winterfell) and son of Warden of the North's bride. The Boltons are not idiots. There is risk they'll catch them and find out who sent them no matter what location they try and take "Arya" away at.

So you think that an innocent girl should be taken captive, forcibly married against her will, and repeatedly raped and tortured, all so Jon can go to sleep at night knowing he didn't break his oath.

Sorry, but any oath that keeps you from protecting someone in that sort of situation deserves to be bent or broken. Just like any oath that would keep Jaime Lannister from keeping 500,000 people from being burned alive and that forces men to stand and watch and do nothing as people are burned alive and strangled is a shitty oath that deserves to be bent or broken.

Has it never dawned on you that maybe the point in all of this is that it's absolutely useless to adhere to the letter of an oath if in doing so you shit all over the spirit of it? Do you sincerely think GRRM wrote any of this with the intention that people would look at Bowen Marsh and think he did the right thing?

Speaking of Bowen, I'm still eagerly waiting for you to rip him to shreds for politicizing the Watch by trying to turn it into a crew of Lannister bitches.

[Bedwyck]

So you think that an innocent girl should be taken captive, forcibly married against her will, and repeatedly raped and tortured, all so Jon can go to sleep at night knowing he didn't break his oath.

Sorry, but any oath that keeps you from protecting someone in that sort of situation deserves to be bent or broken. Just like any oath that would keep Jaime Lannister from keeping 500,000 people from being burned alive and that forces men to stand and watch and do nothing as people are burned alive and strangled is a shitty oath that deserves to be bent or broken.

Has it never dawned on you that maybe the point in all of this is that it's absolutely useless to adhere to the letter of an oath if in doing so you shit all over the spirit of it? Do you sincerely think GRRM wrote any of this with the intention that people would look at Bowen Marsh and think he did the right thing?

Speaking of Bowen, I'm still eagerly waiting for you to rip him to shreds for politicizing the Watch by trying to turn it into a crew of Lannister bitches.

Where did I ever say that what was happening to Jeyne was right? Of course it's horrible, but it is not Jon's place to try and stop it. By doing so he's putting all the men of the Nights Watch at risk. Now you tell me? Is that fair?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Where did I ever say that what was happening to Jeyne was right? Of course it's horrible, but it is not Jon's place to try and stop it. By doing so he's putting all the men of the Nights Watch at risk. Now you tell me? Is that fair?

Then whose place is it? You're putting adherence to an oath above protecting an innocent person from an awful fate. Doesn't that just piss all over the entire purpose of swearing the oath in the first place?

Jon absolved the Watch of having to take any part in the fight against the Boltons. He did not force a single one of them to go with him.

And on that note, isn't Bowen an absolute fucking moron for not just letting Jon march off to certain death, and then turning over Ramsay's hostages to curry favor? If Jon took a bunch of wildlings with him, Bowen would've been rid of them, too. Even you must admit that stabbing the guy in public, surrounded by people of uncertain loyalties, before he's even left, when the wildlings outnumber the Watch brothers, is probably the single dumbest way Marsh could have gone about it. But hey, it makes his inevitable and no doubt imminent messy end that much more satisfying when it happens. And it will happen.

And again, I am still waiting for you to criticize Bowen and the Lannisters for trying to politicize the Watch. Where's your indignant outrage against Cersei for wanting Jon assassinated? For Tywin and Bowen and Co. for trying to swing the election? Why is Jon the only one you're holding to this standard?