[Book Spoilers] Shae

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Knowing Tyrion had a whore before he went to KL =/= he knew what said whore looked like.

Then how did Tywin know that Tyrion defied his command and brought her anyway?

Edit: So was basically Tywin's command to Tyrion back in Season 1?

"Don't take that whore to KL. Of course, I won't have any idea if you do because I don't know what she looks like. And when I later learn that you'd been bedding the same whore during your entire tenure as Hand, I won't assume that the 2 whores may be one in the same, and I'll also continue to remain ignorant of her appearance even then because I wouldn't want to prematurely learn that she is now posing as my daughter-in-law's cup bearer."

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Then how did Tywin know that Tyrion defied his command and brought her anyway?

Edit: So was basically Tywin's command to Tyrion back in Season 1?

"Don't take that whore to KL. Of course, I won't have any idea if you do because I don't know what she looks like. And when I later learn that you'd been bedding the same whore during your entire tenure as Hand, I won't assume that the 2 whores may be one in the same, and I'll also continue to remain ignorant of her appearance even then because I wouldn't want to prematurely learn that she is now posing as my daughter-in-law's cup bearer."

Because Cersei told him after finding, mistakingly, Tyrion's whore (Ros). Only she's the wrong whore, and no one ever finds out about Shae until Cersei implants a spy. Now he knows about her, but we have to wait and see what's done with her.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Then how did Tywin know that Tyrion defied his command and brought her anyway?

Edit: So was basically Tywin's command to Tyrion back in Season 1?

"Don't take that whore to KL. Of course, I won't have any idea if you do because I don't know what she looks like. And when I later learn that you'd been bedding the same whore during your entire tenure as Hand, I won't assume that the 2 whores may be one in the same, and I'll also continue to remain ignorant of her appearance even then because I wouldn't want to prematurely learn that she is now posing as my daughter-in-law's cup bearer."

Knowing who the whore was has no bearing whatsoever on Tywin's knowing that a whore existed.

I'll also continue to remain ignorant of her appearance even then because I wouldn't want to prematurely learn that she is now posing as my daughter-in-law's cup bearer."

No, he will continue to remain ignorant of her appearance because he doesn't find out what she looks like until Cersei points her out.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Knowing who the whore was has no bearing whatsoever on Tywin's knowing that a whore existed.

Tyrion has had thousands of whores. If there was nothing special about this one, why did he bother making the threat? And if he was going to make the threat, why not do the most basic of information gathering so as not to make it a completely empty one?

Because Cersei told him after finding, mistakingly, Tyrion's whore (Ros). Only she's the wrong whore, and no one ever finds out about Shae until Cersei implants a spy. Now he knows about her, but we have to wait and see what's done with her.

You're right, I'd forgotten about that. So we just have Cersei being stupid and Tywin making idle threats.

Which does make one wonder how Cersei could have been such an idiot. "I hear my brother is falling in love with a whore. I'd better not bother finding out who it is by having someone keep an eye on his room, or make note of who needlessly enters and exits the Tower of the Hand - I'll just make a random assumption based on a necklace."

[Martin Rheaume]

The thing that pisses me off about TV Shae is that she came on the scene as if she were an interesting character with a hidden back story. It seemed like there was more than meets the eye. I watched the first two seasons before I read any of the books, so I thought she was going to be a very significant character, and was going to bring a lot to the table. After reading the books, I can't understand why the TV writers set us up for such disappointment.

During the second season, I found her to be a very intriguing character, but she has gotten steadily worse. I want to roll my eyes every time she's on the screen.

I don't know if she'll be back or not, but book Shae got exactly what she deserved. If someone lies about me at my trial, and is part of a plot to get me killed, you're my enemy for life!

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Tyrion has had thousands of whores. If there was nothing special about this one, why did he bother making the threat? And if he was going to make the threat, why not do the most basic of information gathering so as not to make it a completely empty one?

You're right, I'd forgotten about that. So we just have Cersei being stupid and Tywin making idle threats.

Which does make one wonder how Cersei could have been such an idiot. "I hear my brother is falling in love with a whore. I'd better not bother finding out who it is by having someone keep an eye on his room, or make note of who needlessly enters and exits the Tower of the Hand - I'll just make a random assumption based on a necklace."

Basic information gathering - Does a whore exist?

If yes then proceed to deeper information gathering - What is whore's identity?

What is special about this one is that Tywin was quite clearly drawing a line in the sand after the thousands of other whores. "There shall be no more". Once he has found out there is a whore he can't act until he knows her identity.

Cersei wasn't being stupid. Tyrion and Shea had covered their tracks well enough until Shea got complacent.

We will find out soon enough if Tywin's threats were idle.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

You're right, I'd forgotten about that. So we just have Cersei being stupid and Tywin making idle threats.

Which does make one wonder how Cersei could have been such an idiot. "I hear my brother is falling in love with a whore. I'd better not bother finding out who it is by having someone keep an eye on his room, or make note of who needlessly enters and exits the Tower of the Hand - I'll just make a random assumption based on a necklace."

Cersei is stupid quite frequently. If anything she's waaaaaay smarter on the show. But what about it is that stupid? You see a whore wearing a necklace given clearly to her by your brother, if anything it's stupid to assume she isn't the whore, especially when you know she's from the North and would assume she followed Tyrion.

Tywin made no idle threats. He said don't bring the whore to court, he finds out he's been defied, he then says the next whore he finds in his bed will be hanged. Only he never finds her. Now he has, we will see.

[Ser Lepus]

Shae isn't that relevant to the plot, and her character has been changed a lot from how it was in the books. The writers could easily remove her participation in the trial and her servicing Tywin.

Book Shae, if told that Tywin was going to kill them and offered a bunch of diamonds, would have taken the diamonds and have run away. All she ever wanted was money, a fancy manse and a high class husband, and Varys was offering her all that.

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

Nothing about Shae's current circumstance makes any sense. Tywin already knew who she was, otherwise he wouldn't have instructed Tyrion not to bring her to KL.

Tywin knew he had a whore, but didn't know her identity until 2 episodes ago.

[mcmnky]

Tywin knew he had a whore, but didn't know her identity until 2 episodes ago.

I think Tywin has known about Shae--in both books and show--for a long time, perhaps all the way back to the first meeting with Tyrion.

My take on Shae is she is either 1) stupid, 2) suicidal, or 3) spying on Tyrion for Tywin.

Tyrion is repeatedly warning Shae to keep a low profile, trying to tell her what his father does to Tyrion's whores. Perhaps at first she might have thought Tyrion was being overly dramatic, or just wanted to keep Shae a secret. But she's been around the Lannisters long enough to know they do not joke around with stuff like that.

We know she's with Tyrion for the money. But why the constant forays to his room? The pleas to be brought in to the castle? If he's going to pay you to go away, to pay you to not fark him, why not take the money?

So either she doesn't realize Tyrion is not exaggerating at all about his father, and she doesn't realize what danger she is in, and so 1) she is stupid. Or she is hoping to get caught, and so 2) she is suicidal.

Or, and this seems most likely Shae does not seem stupid or suicidal, she is not concerned about getting caught by Tywin because Tywin already knows about her. That he knows and hasn't had her tortured or killed means, 3) she is working for Tywin.

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

I think Tywin has known about Shae--in both books and show--for a long time, perhaps all the way back to the first meeting with Tyrion.

My take on Shae is she is either 1) stupid, 2) suicidal, or 3) spying on Tyrion for Tywin.

Tyrion is repeatedly warning Shae to keep a low profile, trying to tell her what his father does to Tyrion's whores. Perhaps at first she might have thought Tyrion was being overly dramatic, or just wanted to keep Shae a secret. But she's been around the Lannisters long enough to know they do not joke around with stuff like that.

We know she's with Tyrion for the money. But why the constant forays to his room? The pleas to be brought in to the castle? If he's going to pay you to go away, to pay you to not fark him, why not take the money?

So either she doesn't realize Tyrion is not exaggerating at all about his father, and she doesn't realize what danger she is in, and so 1) she is stupid. Or she is hoping to get caught, and so 2) she is suicidal.

Or, and this seems most likely Shae does not seem stupid or suicidal, she is not concerned about getting caught by Tywin because Tywin already knows about her. That he knows and hasn't had her tortured or killed means, 3) she is working for Tywin.

Its possible that Shae was working for Tywin, but it seems to me unlikely. Since Tywin has been back in KL, Tyrion has really been in no position of power, except as master of coin, so I don't see a huge motivation for Tywin bothering with Shae spying on him. I think Tywin sees Tyrion as a boob and a failure, and he already knows about Tyrion's shenanigans. He would have to be paying her a lot in order for her to refuse a bag of diamonds from Varys that could have bought her with a house and servants for the rest of her life [according to Varys]. He's tight with his money, and I just don't see him caring that much about what Tyrion does. And if he did bother to have Shae spy for him, his m.o would be more along the lines of "if you want to continue living, you'll do this for me" rather than "here's a nice big salary of gold for you, as long as you keep doing this for me". I actually think the show is playing her role as straightforward, and she loves Tyrion. I think in both the show and the book, Shae is more naïve than anything, leading her to carelessness around the castle.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

No, Tywin didn't learn the identity of Tyrion's whore until "Two Swords", when Cersei's spy reported it. The show has made this pretty clear.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

We will find out soon enough if Tywin's threats were idle.

Maybe 'idle' isn't the best word, but he made a demand of Tyrion which he was apparently in absolutely no position to enforce - or even know whether it had been violated. The fact that Ros was killed in Shae's place supports, not contradicts, that.

Perhaps 'incompetent' or 'futile' would be more appropriate, but neither is a term generally associated with Tywin.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

The fact that Ros was killed in Shae's place supports, not contradicts, that.

This is fact? I thought Ros was killed because Baelish wanted to tie up a loose end.

I agree 100% that Tywin was previously in no position to enforce it - because he wasn't there. He was prosecuting a war. Cersei was there, yet even with her network of spies she was unable to find out the real identity of the whore until Shae became complacent. She clearly knew there was a whore though, hence the arrest and beating of Ros and the obvious passing on of that knowledge to Tywin when he reclaimed the title of Hand.

[Chebyshov]

This is fact? I thought Ros was killed because Baelish wanted to tie up a loose end.

I agree 100% that Tywin was previously in no position to enforce it - because he wasn't there. He was prosecuting a war. Cersei was there, yet even with her network of spies she was unable to find out the real identity of the whore until Shae became complacent. She clearly knew there was a whore though, hence the arrest and beating of Ros and the obvious passing on of that knowledge to Tywin when he reclaimed the title of Hand.

Agreed. Ros's death seemed to be more about her betrayal to LF than Cersei thinking she was Tyrion's (although the actual reason was because the actress didn't want to do more naked scenes).

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Agreed. Ros's death seemed to be more about her betrayal to LF than Cersei thinking she was Tyrion's (although the actual reason was because the actress didn't want to do more naked scenes).

Is that true, she didn't want to do more nude scenes? That could explain the idea of her becoming more of an assistant to LF and then a clothes wearing spy for Varys. I had no idea. I do agree that Ros's death was about LF tying up loose ends and getting rid of someone who betrayed him along with it allowing him to make nice with Joff. Now I'm wondering about the guy Olyvar in the brothel who seems to be moving up, or trying to move up, to clothes wearing assistant.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

This is fact? I thought Ros was killed because Baelish wanted to tie up a loose end.

I agree 100% that Tywin was previously in no position to enforce it - because he wasn't there. He was prosecuting a war. Cersei was there, yet even with her network of spies she was unable to find out the real identity of the whore until Shae became complacent. She clearly knew there was a whore though, hence the arrest and beating of Ros and the obvious passing on of that knowledge to Tywin when he reclaimed the title of Hand.

I was conceding it as fact because (1) it's not the point and (2) complicity in Ros's death would have been the only thing to make Tywin's threat completely toothless.

Shae was in Tywin's camp when Tyrion met her, not KL. Running the war didn't prevent him from learning about her significance, and it didn't prevent him from demanding that she not accompany Tyrion to KL - why did it prevent him from taking the most basic of steps to put himself in a position to even know whether his demand had been respected? This man who regularly stays 4 and 5 steps ahead of everyone else suddenly can't think 1 step ahead?

I'm not saying it's the biggest deal in the world, I just honestly don't understand how you guys are rationalizing the contradictions. Either Shae was important or she wasn't. Either Tywin cared or he didn't. It seems to me, in this matter, he was clearly either capricious, toothless, or incompetent. I guess you're going with 'incompetence due to capriciousness'?

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

Ros was sent to Joffrey to die by Littlefinger, who knew that she wasn't Tyrion's paramour. Ros died due to being a bad investment for LF. Tywin has different motives depending on who he's threatening. If he's making a threat to someone outside his family, he has a motivation to follow up on the threat, and keep up his reputation. Threatening Tyrion is likely a different animal. He's doing it more out of hatred and spite for his son, than for any political gain. He may figure that the threat itself is enough to make his son's life miserable. For the time being, at least. He had many other fish to fry at that time, and his lack of discovering Shae sooner may simply show where this matter falls on his list of priorities, rather than any incompetence on his part. I think it nicely contrasts Tywin's family dynamics with his political strategy. There's actually not necessarily any contradictions here.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

I was conceding it as fact because (1) it's not the point and (2) complicity in Ros's death would have been the only thing to make Tywin's threat completely toothless.

I don't understand your point here, because it was not a fact. There is no reason to attach it to Tywin's threat in any manner

Shae was in Tywin's camp when Tyrion met her, not KL. Running the war didn't prevent him from learning about her significance, and it didn't prevent him from demanding that she not accompany Tyrion to KL - why did it prevent him from taking the most basic of steps to put himself in a position to even know whether his demand had been respected? This man who regularly stays 4 and 5 steps ahead of everyone else suddenly can't think 1 step ahead?

Tywin was prosecuting a war. He was commanding an army of 30,000 men. Armies have extensive camp followers - especially one as cashed up as a Lannister army can reasonably expected to be. This means it can be reasonably expected that there would be hundreds or even thousands of whores amongst the camp followers. There is no reason to presume her knew her identity. It is reasonable to presume that someone told him Tyrion was keeping the company of a whore. Tywin gave an order to Tyrion and expected it to be obeyed.

I'm not saying it's the biggest deal in the world, I just honestly don't understand how you guys are rationalizing the contradictions. Either Shae was important or she wasn't. Either Tywin cared or he didn't. It seems to me, in this matter, he was clearly either capricious, toothless, or incompetent. I guess you're going with 'incompetence due to capriciousness'?

You guess wrong.

I am 'going with', as the first time Tywin had given Tyrion any responsibility (above plumber at Casterly Rock) and that as Acting Hand he was representing Tywin himself, he chose to impose certain standards of behaviour from then on. I say 'from then on', because clearly he did not have an issue with whores amongst the camp followers, or the fact Tyrion had taken a whore to bed on the eve of a battle.

Tywin was testing Tyrion.

Tyrion failed the test.

Tywin reacted by renouncing him as heir and then threatened capital punishment for any whore from then on. After much spying activity, the whore has finally been identified and Tywin acted immediately to have her brought into custody.

I just honestly can't see how there are any contradictions.

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

I don't understand your point here, because it was not a fact. There is no reason to attach it to Tywin's threat in any manner

Tywin was prosecuting a war. He was commanding an army of 30,000 men. Armies have extensive camp followers - especially one as cashed up as a Lannister army can reasonably expected to be. This means it can be reasonably expected that there would be hundreds or even thousands of whores amongst the camp followers. There is no reason to presume her knew her identity. It is reasonable to presume that someone told him Tyrion was keeping the company of a whore. Tywin gave an order to Tyrion and expected it to be obeyed.

You guess wrong.

I am 'going with', as the first time Tywin had given Tyrion any responsibility (above plumber at Casterly Rock) and that as Acting Hand he was representing Tywin himself, he chose to impose certain standards of behaviour from then on. I say 'from then on', because clearly he did not have an issue with whores amongst the camp followers, or the fact Tyrion had taken a whore to bed on the eve of a battle.

Tywin was testing Tyrion.

Tyrion failed the test.

Tywin reacted by renouncing him as heir and then threatened capital punishment for any whore from then on. After much spying activity, the whore has finally been identified and Tywin acted immediately to have her brought into custody.

I just honestly can't see how there are any contradictions.

Agreed. There is really no contradiction here. It just depends on how many angles a person is willing to view something from. I hadn't thought of the idea that he was testing Tyrion, giving him a chance to rid himself of his vices, without Tywin's intervention, but that is another possible [even likely] ingredient in this mix.