Why you shouldn't be celebrating [No Book Spoilers]

[Petyr Patter]

So, Joffrey is dead. Time to celebrate, right? No, you probably shouldn’t. And not for the reasons you think.

Sure, the Christian thing is to say every death is a tragedy and to murder even your enemies is to sin. But not everyone is Christian and even Christianity realizes to protect life sometimes one must take life.

You should be sad because Joffrey was murdered, which is the opposite of justice. And the lack of justice in Westeros is the real tragedy. Indeed, the immediate aftermath of his murder was an accusation and an arrest. If Tyrion is guilty, then he may be punished for killing Joffrey. If he is innocent, even worse the death of Joffrey is costing him his freedom and quite possibly his life.

The show almost began with an act of justice. Eddard’s men found a deserter of the Night’s Watch, which is a capital crime. Eddard questions the man and finds him guilty of desertion. In front of witnesses, he explains his authority, let the accused have his last words, and then swings the sword.

Currently, no one knows why Joffrey is dead. It is an act of violence at a time when violence and greed has become common. There was no recounting of his crimes, no one announcing his or her authority to carry out the sentence. Instead, we are going to see the apparatus of justice used to punish his presumed killer and legitimize his cruelty and reign.

Worse, the poisoner probably ate at the wedding feast. Meaning he or she was a guest. Why is this important? Because of the great social law which forbids guests and hosts from harming each other… the very same law Robb Stark depended upon for his safety at the Twins. Are we to cry for the treachery that killed Robb and yet cheer it for Joffrey?

And ultimately, nothing in Westeros has changed for the better. Joffrey’s younger brother and Cersei’s youngest child Tommen is going to quickly be crowned king. Tywin Lannister will continue to rule as Hand while the Boltons continue to rule in the North as a reward for betraying the Starks. The Greyjoys continue to hold the rest of the North and the Riverlands continue to be devastated by king’s men like Polliver. Bran, Rickon, and Arya remain as homeless refugees who are fleeing for their lives, and now because of Joffrey’s death it appears Sansa will be joining them.

While cheering a well-deserved death is cathartic for the mind, it isn’t for the people who still have to live in Westeros.

[CrannogXninja]

well, you better find a way to jump into Westeros to drive a wahmbulance and cry yourself around the entire Seven Kingdoms

[Indigocell]

Your point about the guest right is well-taken. I suppose Tywin and Walder Frey changed the game when they did that. Nothing is really sacred anymore.

It's interesting to note how injustice breeds injustice, at least when it comes to Tyrion.

[eyeheartsansa]

Interesting... I had not considered the implications of 'guest right' for the Purple Wedding. I always thought that was more of a North / 'old gods' thing though.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

I understand what you are saying.

Celebrations of Joffrey's death in the show are tempered by the make-up and CGI showing how terrible it was. This was also demonstrated in the books by the throat tearing. The reader/viewer is lead into the situation where they can celebrate his demise but such emotion is balanced by feelings of discomfort.

You should be sad because Joffrey was murdered, which is the opposite of justice.

I will feel what ever I darn well like, not because that is what I am told to feel or think. Ser Desmond =/= Reek.

[Annara Snow]

Interesting... I had not considered the implications of 'guest right' for the Purple Wedding. I always thought that was more of a North / 'old gods' thing though.

If it were, then the Freys would not be expected to uphold it in the first place. Guest right is considered sacred throughout Westeros.

So, Joffrey is dead. Time to celebrate, right? No, you probably shouldn’t. And not for the reasons you think.

Sure, the Christian thing is to say every death is a tragedy and to murder even your enemies is to sin. But not everyone is Christian and even Christianity realizes to protect life sometimes one must take life.

You should be sad because Joffrey was murdered, which is the opposite of justice. And the lack of justice in Westeros is the real tragedy. Indeed, the immediate aftermath of his murder was an accusation and an arrest. If Tyrion is guilty, then he may be punished for killing Joffrey. If he is innocent, even worse the death of Joffrey is costing him his freedom and quite possibly his life.

The show almost began with an act of justice. Eddard’s men found a deserter of the Night’s Watch, which is a capital crime. Eddard questions the man and finds him guilty of desertion. In front of witnesses, he explains his authority, let the accused have his last words, and then swings the sword.

Currently, no one knows why Joffrey is dead. It is an act of violence at a time when violence and greed has become common. There was no recounting of his crimes, no one announcing his or her authority to carry out the sentence. Instead, we are going to see the apparatus of justice used to punish his presumed killer and legitimize his cruelty and reign.

Worse, the poisoner probably ate at the wedding feast. Meaning he or she was a guest. Why is this important? Because of the great social law which forbids guests and hosts from harming each other… the very same law Robb Stark depended upon for his safety at the Twins. Are we to cry for the treachery that killed Robb and yet cheer it for Joffrey?

And ultimately, nothing in Westeros has changed for the better. Joffrey’s younger brother and Cersei’s youngest child Tommen is going to quickly be crowned king. Tywin Lannister will continue to rule as Hand while the Boltons continue to rule in the North as a reward for betraying the Starks. The Greyjoys continue to hold the rest of the North and the Riverlands continue to be devastated by king’s men like Polliver. Bran, Rickon, and Arya remain as homeless refugees who are fleeing for their lives, and now because of Joffrey’s death it appears Sansa will be joining them.

While cheering a well-deserved death is cathartic for the mind, it isn’t for the people who still have to live in Westeros.

You are right about most of this, however, I disagree with many of your conclusions.

1) Are you talking about justice or about legality? Those two are not necessarily the same. What is legal may not necessarily be just. Was Ned Stark beheading the NW ranger who ran away because he was terrified after having seen the White Walkers murder his companions justice? Ned certainly thought it was, but did the man really deserve death? I don't think so.

Is deserting the NW really such a terrible crime that it merits death, as opposed to a lot of other crimes (including murder and rape) which aren't deemed as serious and can result in the perpetrator being forced to join the NW (an organization that some people join of their own free will)? I don't think so, either. Even Ned Stark didn't seem to think so. He didn't argue to Bran that the man deserved death, he argued that death penalty was necessary because a man who deserts the NW would be very dangerous, because he's in a desperate situation. But he's only in a desperate situation because a deserter gets a death penalty according to the law. What Ned did was enforce the law, not enforce justice.

Between that death, and Joffrey being murdered at his wedding, I'd argue that the latter is much closer to justice, because Joffrey deserved a death sentence much more than the NW ranger did. Even if the murderer was not motivated by the desire to bring him to justice, Joffrey was probably murdered because of the kind of person he is and the kind of things he does.

2) If a murder were the opposite of justice, are state executions the opposite of justice? Is state-sanctioned murder that much better than individual murder - say, a murder one done by someone who wishes to punish the guilty or remove a dangerous person from a position of power/capability to do further harm? (For instance, Arya killing Polliver.) The obvious answer is that it's better because it maintains law and order, while something like a vigilante or revenge kill does the opposite. But that, again, is a matter of law and order, not justice. The state/its regime and judiciary can also be corrupt, murderous and unjust, and even if it is not, there may be failure of justice - people who are executed or otherwise punished may actually be innocent, or the judge may be prejudiced and give them a much harsher sentence than they deserve.

(To use an ASOAIF/GoT example, the execution of Ned Stark was legal [inasmuch as one recognizes Joffrey as the king, but Joffrey himself had no idea he may not be legitimate], because Joffrey was the king and had the authority to order it. The executions of Ned's father and brother at the order of the Mad King Aerys were definitely legal, because he had the authority to order it under the laws of the Seven Kingdoms [and nobody even questioned his legitimacy as the hereditary monarch]. So, does that mean that those were examples of justice, while Joffrey's murder or the murder of the Mad King were examples of injustice?)

When it comes down to it, the motivations of Joffrey's murderer are likely to be very similar to the motivations of the state in executing criminals: either justice, or - more likely - the practical motive of removing of a dangerous person from the stage and making it impossible for them to do any further harm.

3) Good luck with getting legal justice in Westeros. It should be pretty clear at this point that it's extremely unlikely to happen to regarding most of the crimes committed by powerful people (which includes pretty much everything done by Tywin, Joffrey, Roose Bolton, Walder Frey etc.), or people who operate in the state of chaos (like the Mountain, Polliver, and other people committing horrible crimes in war-ravaged Riverlands). Most of the time, only way to have the perpetrators punished for what they've done and to make them incapable of doing any more harm is, well, to murder them illegally. Since the alternative is to let them get away with it and keep doing the same, I'll take the murder, gladly, and be happy about it.

4) The third reason that motivates the legal punishments, an attempt to show an example and deter further wrongdoings by other people who may follow the example, realizing that you can get away with it, also applies in this case, even though it may not have been the motivation of Joffrey's murderer. The deaths of Aerys II and Joffrey show that you can't get away with being a complete douche and committing crimes left and right just because you are a king, and that your absolute power is not enough to protect you. The fate of Aerys II was used by Tyrion as an example for Joffrey, and while it didn't help, the deaths of Aerys II and Joffrey can have the same effect.

5) Yes, guest right doesn't mean what it used to. But, in a way, that can be seen as an example of karmic justice and a warning: you shall reap what you sow. If you break the rules and commit a horrible crime, consequences will follow and others will use the same against you. That's maybe not entirely applicable here since Joffrey was not involved in the RW, but if we look at Joffrey's murder as a strike against the Lannisters, it shows that Tywin was dead wrong when he gave his (bullshit) justification of the RW and the reasons why it's supposedly good for the realm.

6) You are right that Joffrey's death does not change that much in terms of the Lannister power structure. I would much rather have Tywin Lannister murdered, if I had to choose, since he is actually crucial for the Lannister power structure (and is also responsible for many more crimes than Joffrey, but that's another matter).

You are also right that Joffrey's death results in a bad consequence of Tyrion, who's probably innocent, getting wrongfully arrested and possibly convicted/executed.

But on the other hand... if one is hoping that a power structure built on treachery and murder, such as the Lannister power, will collapse - and I certainly am - then something that severely destabilizes the Lannister power structure is a good thing, and there's no doubt that Joffrey's murder and the resulting tensions stemming from the lack of knowledge about the idendity of the murderer (including Tyrion's arrest) will do just that.

7) Becoming a homeless refugee fleeing for her life is a considerable improvement of circumstances for Sansa, compared to what she was before, i.e. a powerless captive forcibly married into the family who murdered most of her family. Sansa herself would most likely agree, since she's been dreaming of getting away from the Lannisters since her father's beheading (and, in the books, had actually been planning to do so, since she had offers, which the show had decided to deny her).

In short: there are actually quite a few reasons to feel happy because of Joffrey's murder (some of them purely practical), even though there are also other reasons to feel concerned about it.

[averde]

It's Westeros, the place is full of injustice. Joffrey not getting to kill or abuse anyone else is justice in it's own right.

[Clariana]

If it were, then the Freys would not be expected to uphold it in the first place. Guest right is considered sacred throughout Westeros.

You are right about most of this, however, I disagree with many of your conclusions.

1) Are you talking about justice or about legality? Those two are not necessarily the same. What is legal may not necessarily be just. Was Ned Stark beheading the NW ranger who ran away because he was terrified after having seen the White Walkers murder his companions justice? Ned certainly thought it was, but did the man really deserve death? I don't think so.

Is deserting the NW really such a terrible crime that it merits death, as opposed to a lot of other crimes (including murder and rape) which aren't deemed as serious and can result in the perpetrator being forced to join the NW (an organization that some people join of their own free will)? I don't think so, either. Even Ned Stark didn't seem to think so. He didn't argue to Bran that the man deserved death, he argued that death penalty was necessary because a man who deserts the NW would be very dangerous, because he's in a desperate situation. But he's only in a desperate situation because a deserter gets a death penalty according to the law. What Ned did was enforce the law, not enforce justice.

Between that death, and Joffrey being murdered at his wedding, I'd argue that the latter is much closer to justice, because Joffrey deserved a death sentence much more than the NW ranger did. Even if the murderer was not motivated by the desire to bring him to justice, Joffrey was probably murdered because of the kind of person he is and the kind of things he does.

2) If a murder were the opposite of justice, are state executions the opposite of justice? Is state-sanctioned murder that much better than individual murder - say, a murder one done by someone who wishes to punish the guilty or remove a dangerous person from a position of power/capability to do further harm? (For instance, Arya killing Polliver.) The obvious answer is that it's better because it maintains law and order, while something like a vigilante or revenge kill does the opposite. But that, again, is a matter of law and order, not justice. The state/its regime and judiciary can also be corrupt, murderous and unjust, and even if it is not, there may be failure of justice - people who are executed or otherwise punished may actually be innocent, or the judge may be prejudiced and give them a much harsher sentence than they deserve.

(To use an ASOAIF/GoT example, the execution of Ned Stark was legal [inasmuch as one recognizes Joffrey as the king, but Joffrey himself had no idea he may not be legitimate], because Joffrey was the king and had the authority to order it. The executions of Ned's father and brother at the order of the Mad King Aerys were definitely legal, because he had the authority to order it under the laws of the Seven Kingdoms [and nobody even questioned his legitimacy as the hereditary monarch]. So, does that mean that those were examples of justice, while Joffrey's murder or the murder of the Mad King were examples of injustice?)

When it comes down to it, the motivations of Joffrey's murderer are likely to be very similar to the motivations of the state in executing criminals: either justice, or - more likely - the practical motive of removing of a dangerous person from the stage and making it impossible for them to do any further harm.

3) Good luck with getting legal justice in Westeros. It should be pretty clear at this point that it's extremely unlikely to happen to regarding most of the crimes committed by powerful people (which includes pretty much everything done by Tywin, Joffrey, Roose Bolton, Walder Frey etc.), or people who operate in the state of chaos (like the Mountain, Polliver, and other people committing horrible crimes in war-ravaged Riverlands). Most of the time, only way to have the perpetrators punished for what they've done and to make them incapable of doing any more harm is, well, to murder them illegally. Since the alternative is to let them get away with it and keep doing the same, I'll take the murder, gladly, and be happy about it.

4) The third reason that motivates the legal punishments, an attempt to show an example and deter further wrongdoings by other people who may follow the example, realizing that you can get away with it, also applies in this case, even though it may not have been the motivation of Joffrey's murderer. The deaths of Aerys II and Joffrey show that you can't get away with being a complete douche and committing crimes left and right just because you are a king, and that your absolute power is not enough to protect you. The fate of Aerys II was used by Tyrion as an example for Joffrey, and while it didn't help, the deaths of Aerys II and Joffrey can have the same effect.

5) Yes, guest right doesn't mean what it used to. But, in a way, that can be seen as an example of karmic justice and a warning: you shall reap what you sow. If you break the rules and commit a horrible crime, consequences will follow and others will use the same against you. That's maybe not entirely applicable here since Joffrey was not involved in the RW, but if we look at Joffrey's murder as a strike against the Lannisters, it shows that Tywin was dead wrong when he gave his (bullshit) justification of the RW and the reasons why it's supposedly good for the realm.

6) You are right that Joffrey's death does not change that much in terms of the Lannister power structure. I would much rather have Tywin Lannister murdered, if I had to choose, since he is actually crucial for the Lannister power structure (and is also responsible for many more crimes than Joffrey, but that's another matter).

You are also right that Joffrey's death results in a bad consequence of Tyrion, who's probably innocent, getting wrongfully arrested and possibly convicted/executed.

But on the other hand... if one is hoping that a power structure built on treachery and murder, such as the Lannister power, will collapse - and I certainly am - then something that severely destabilizes the Lannister power structure is a good thing, and there's no doubt that Joffrey's murder and the resulting tensions stemming from the lack of knowledge about the idendity of the murderer (including Tyrion's arrest) will do just that.

7) Becoming a homeless refugee fleeing for her life is a considerable improvement of circumstances for Sansa, compared to what she was before, i.e. a powerless captive forcibly married into the family who murdered most of her family. Sansa herself would most likely agree, since she's been dreaming of getting away from the Lannisters since her father's beheading (and, in the books, had actually been planning to do so, since she had offers, which the show had decided to deny her).

In short: there are actually quite a few reasons to feel happy because of Joffrey's murder (some of them purely practical), even though there are also other reasons to feel concerned about it.

:agree: Very much agree. I was going to make the same point about Joff and the deserter myself.

My only, very minor quibble, is that although Joff was not personally responsible for the RW it was done in his name and he did not complain about it, furthermore he has benefitted politically and personally (new sword) from it, so, to an extent, he is also culpable.

The difference between justice and legality can be discussed until the cows come home, however, it is noticeable in almost any epoch and any place that the powerful and well-off are much less liable to feel the full rigours of the law, even if they deserve it, than the poor and dispossessed. Sometimes subterfuge, rebellion and, yeah, murder are the only ways in which they can be made to pay.

RIP Joff, you won't be missed.

[Angmar]

This seems like some butthurt Joffrey fan, like now suddenly in places like tumblr they're crying that he wasn't so bad, he was so misunderstood, blah blah blah.

:cool4:

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Honestly, I don't give a shit about all the reasons that I shouldn't be celebrating, regardless of whether those reasons relate to Christianity (really, it's not the only religion around, LOL) or the all around piss poor justice system that exists in Westeros. That little SOB has had it coming to him since GoT S1, book one. Sometimes, fate itself dishes out a dose of justice, in both the real world and Westeros.

So, I'm back to celebrating (and rewatching soon, for the fun), and anyone who'd like to do the same is welcome to come dance with me. ~This board could use a good dancing emoticon~

[XTwipz]

Robb Starks was fighting for freedom, for a better place to live in. He was against the terror that Joffrey instigating. Yes, I agree, Robb had killed too, it is a war and many people are going to die. But Joffrey's death had something more. Look, even Tywin and Cersei were agree about Joffrey. He was doing what he wanted, without thinking of consequences. He was a really bad king, worst than Robert.

[GHOSTSTARK]

the Lannister had their hand in on Robb Stark. it wasnt just the Frey who broke the guest right. the Lannisters are right there with them and anything that came to them is what they deserve.

[six]

I'm not celebrating because Joffrey dying

puts Sansa in the hands of Pedofinger and has her accused of a murder she did not commit, Tyrion ends up jailed and he's also not responsible, and the kingdom is now in Cersei's hands. Mind you, not that the situation before was optimal, but it is a case of getting worse.

Everything else, meh. He was a kid though, so I don't rejoice.

ETA: someone pointed out to me I forgot to put some stuff under spoilers, soz! It's fixed now.

[Sam with Hooters]

Don't forget that TV!Joffrey is a cold-blooded murderer who may well have turned out to be a serial killer before too many years were out.

[Floop]

Things may not get much better for the people of Westeros, but some positive change is better than no positive change. It's a step in the right direction. The same people are basically in charge, except that a sadistic murderer that worked on a fairly small scale is unable to torture or kill any more people. Joffrey + the rest of the Lannisters was still worse than just the Lannisters. He went beyond what even they wanted to do on a few occasions. It's not a large scale improvement, but it's definitely an improvement.

As for the arbitrary and invented rules about what justice is and what is or isn't socially acceptable, I don't need to see a trial to know that justice was (for me) carried out, and I am not concerned with how and where that justice was carried out.

Celebrating the death of Joffrey is not the same as thinking that the world has been saved. I have celebrated and will continue to celebrate his horrible demise, while at the same time being glad that Westeros is still in turmoil because that allows the show to continue.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

It's a monarchy, so the choices are a bit limited to all out rebellion or murder. This is not very different from Jaime slaying Aerys, and I think the books cover the moral greyness associated with making such choices.

[JoramunsKazoo]

Joffery was a vile psychopath and needed to be eradicated. I do not celebrate a murder; I simply say good riddance to a cancer.

[Petyr Patter]

@Anarra Snow - Your reply is to big for me to quote around, but here are some quick bullet points.

• Justice is not the same thing as legal. However, legality provides an important framework for pursuing justice. Otherwise, "an eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind." - Gandhi.
  
• The use of legal apparatus to punish the innocent (Eddard) and keep the guilty in power (Tywin, Joffrey) is the greater tragedy than Joffrey being king. For example, consider Polliver, the "king's man" we saw at the end of episode 1 robbing an inn and about to rape the wife or daughter of the innkeep. It seems very clear to me he's built up a bigger body count than Joffrey. And with Joffrey gone... Polliver and the hundreds like still roaming the realm are still "king's men" and are still free of retribution.
  
• Justice is requires a few elements. Acknowledgement of crimes is one. Had Arya shown up in Joffrey's chambers and declared "you killed my father prepare to die," I would have cheered. As it is, Joffrey's death is a mystery.
  
• Desertion from the military has historically been a capital offense. It almost needs to be to maintain order. Regardless, the deserter knew the penalty and abandon the Wall and weakening the defense of the Realm he was sworn to protect. Maybe death for a first offense is to harsh, but everyone knows the penalty and his guilty was not in doubt.
  
• Having read the books and knowing who and more importantly why Joffrey was murdered has colored my perception of the event. Suffice it to say, unless you think Tyrion was actually guilty, Joffrey in dying may do more harm than good.
  
• I disagree about Sansa. She was actually in safe place with Tyrion, although certainly not a loving place. Tyrion cared about her welfare and viewed it as his duty to protect her. Now... well, her fate is in unknown. I will say Dontos the former drunk knight and currently drunk fool is a far less effective protector than Sandor Clegane is to Arya.
  

This seems like some butthurt Joffrey fan, like now suddenly in places like tumblr they're crying that he wasn't so bad, he was so misunderstood, blah blah blah.

:cool4:

Uh, I say nothing of the sort. Joffrey was exactly what he appeared to be.

SPOILER

Psst. This is a non-spoiler thread. If you could edit your post that would be beneficial. Though you are on to a reason why I'm saying Joffrey's death is more bad than good. Or rather the manner of his death.

Things may not get much better for the people of Westeros, but some positive change is better than no positive change. It's a step in the right direction. The same people are basically in charge, except that a sadistic murderer that worked on a fairly small scale is unable to torture or kill any more people. Joffrey + the rest of the Lannisters was still worse than just the Lannisters. He went beyond what even they wanted to do on a few occasions. It's not a large scale improvement, but it's definitely an improvement.

As for the arbitrary and invented rules about what justice is and what is or isn't socially acceptable, I don't need to see a trial to know that justice was (for me) carried out, and I am not concerned with how and where that justice was carried out.

Celebrating the death of Joffrey is not the same as thinking that the world has been saved. I have celebrated and will continue to celebrate his horrible demise, while at the same time being glad that Westeros is still in turmoil because that allows the show to continue.

See, you think the world have been made better. I disagree. He died blaming an uncle who may or may not be guilty, and thinking he was right that his uncle was a terrible person who he was right to marginalize. And the world is made darker by Tyrion in jail, one of the few people who wanted to make the realm a better place.

I agree a trial isn't necessary, but it would have been nice. What is necessary is some sort of public acknowledgement that Joffrey died for his crimes. Not, because his uncle hated him, which is now the working theory.

It's a monarchy, so the choices are a bit limited to all out rebellion or murder. This is not very different from Jaime slaying Aerys, and I think the books cover the moral greyness associated with making such choices.

The nice thing about Jaime killing Aerys is he OWNED the fact he did it. No one is stepping forward to say "I killed Joffrey." Now, if only Jaime's pride hadn't stopped him from explaining why he did it, he might actually have developed a positive reputation. Instead, everyone assumes he did so because the war was lost and it was a way for the Lannisters to prove their loyalty to the new Robert Baratheon led powerblock.

[TheFullmetalAlchemist]

I found Joffrey to be entertaining in the books and the show. I dont get why everybody is so happy about it. For me when it comes to entertainment, I value entertaining characters over moral ones. Yet so many people seem to value the latter more.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I don't think the defense that it's ok to murder someone as long as you own up to it is very strong.