The Curious Case of the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose V

[Metopheles]

So, why would Rhaegar rub Dornish noses with his mistress and still enjoy support of the House of Dayne that put a wet-nurse at Lyanna's disposal? One can argue that Dorne could not move against Rhaegar because princess Elia was in KL, because that would endanger her. However, Dorne is still loyal to Targaryens. Wouldn't they be angry at least a bit because of this "other woman" stuff? Makes no sense to me.

EDIT: typos

I think they do not care a bit about the relationship. They do it themselves.

Maybe, as we mentioned in the previous thread, Elia was in on it.

She lived with a guy that talked day and night about prophecies and did care for nothing other(not really) so maybe Elia, infertile, decided he has to have another child. He may even have protested, but like the scene of Selyse in the series about the sex with Melisandre, it was for the greater good and needed. Who knows if Elia really pushed him to do it. And he had to protect the child. the mountains are always good. no army can get there easily and you can easily hide. and you see when someone comes. Dorne was the only place he could have been safe with mountains. Westerlands would have been stupid. the Vale stupider and the Stormlands the stupidest, except for the mountains in the north. So there would have been the reach and Dorne.

This is far fetched and no evidence. It's only a thought. But you can decide if you think it possible or not, rather than just say no, because no hints.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Although there is certainly a logic to the idea that Rhaegar would want to make sure that the PtwP was legitimate (since hey, that seems to be part of the definition of "prince"), we've no idea, really, where Rhaegar had come to in his understanding of the prophecy or prophecies.

Rhaegar wanted three children, but he already had his "prince", a legitimate son, Aegon.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Since Ned was the last person to talk to Lyanna, and she made him promise her something pretty important, it makes sense to assume that she gave him the relevant details. In other words, if Lyanna told Ned that she and Rhaegar were married then Ned would know that they were married. If R&L were married, I think it's fairly safe to assume that Lyanna told Ned as much.

But she was weak. I think she would rather simply says the most urgent: please, take care of my baby. Maybe she never mentioned the father and Ned assumed Rhaegar, like we all do.

[Modesty Lannister]

I think they do not care a bit about the relationship. They do it themselves.

Maybe, as we mentioned in the previous thread, Elia was in on it.

She lived with a guy that talked day and night about prophecies and did care for nothing other(not really) so maybe Elia, infertile, decided he has to have another child. He may even have protested, but like the scene of Selyse in the series about the sex with Melisandre, it was for the greater good and needed. Who knows if Elia really pushed him to do it. And he had to protect the child. the mountains are always good. no army can get there easily and you can easily hide. and you see when someone comes. Dorne was the only place he could have been safe with mountains. Westerlands would have been stupid. the Vale stupider and the Stormlands the stupidest, except for the mountains in the north. So there would have been the reach and Dorne.

This is far fetched and no evidence. It's only a thought. But you can decide if you think it possible or not, rather than just say no, because no hints.

Why would I say no? Your argument is logical, based on what we know about Dorne, Elia's state of fertility and Rhaegar's favourite pastime. Solid.

[Starks Among Us]

Maybe Ned was the one person in Westeros to deduce that "rape" coupled with an extended length "kidnapping" might have a good chance of resulting in pregnancy?

I would also say that even had she not told him, even if he had not deduced the info, that there was probably a good chance something or some one else clued him in. Maybe he found something in the love nest, maybe a servant told him, maybe KG told him at some point...

[Modesty Lannister]

But she was weak. I think she would rather simply says the most urgent: please, take care of my baby. Maybe she never mentioned the father and Ned assumed Rhaegar, like we all do.

We still do not know, so we can only speculate. That fighting and killing in front of ToJ certainly didn't improve her health with all additional stress and screaming "Eddard". However, tearing the tower down is fishy. Why did Ned HAVE to create 8 graves with piled stones on the spot?

1. Because he wanted to destroy the ToJ - the place where his sister was terrorised. The text said it was a bitter memory, which is understandable because his sister died in the ToJ, but … a bit over-the-top for Ned. Ned is not Brandon.

2. Because he wanted to honour all the dead equally

3. Because he wanted to hide who actually died there, because in order to get to a body, you not only had to travel to a remote area, but you'd have to remove piles of stones.

4. Because he wanted to remove some clues that were in the ToJ

Also, I reread the dialogue between Eddard Stark and the three knights of KG and there is no hostility there.

Puzzling...

[Metopheles]

Yeah maybe Ned did something with Jon to find out more about him, like Oberyn did with Obara (or monks do when searching for the new Dalai)

Ned could have placed different toys or weapons, things before baby Jon, child Jon, puberty Jon and look what he takes to determine if he has Targaryen identity or something.

Like in an exaggeration, he places a harp and a greatsword before Jon and looks what happens. Because Jon has no Targaryen features, he might have had a Targaryen soul. I would do that to find out who the father might be.

He wouldn't even have to literally shove these things in front of Jon, he just had to watch him grow.

[King Benjen II]

What bugs me about the ToJ is it's location. Where is it exactly? I got an impression it's too close to Dorne for Lyanna's comfort. Or do you think that may prove Lyana was Rhaegar's mistress since people in Dorne do not care much about how many mistresses or bastards one has. Would that apply to the Crown Prince and their princess though?

ToJ is in Dorne along the coast.

[King Benjen II]

So, why would Rhaegar rub Dornish noses with his mistress and still enjoy support of the House of Dayne that put a wet-nurse at Lyanna's disposal? One can argue that Dorne could not move against Rhaegar because princess Elia was in KL, because that would endanger her. However, Dorne is still loyal to Targaryens. Wouldn't they be angry at least a bit because of this "other woman" stuff? Makes no sense to me.

EDIT: typos

Paramours are not frowned upon at all in Dorne.

An important point actually when trying to prove Rhaegar and Lyanna were married...they were in Dorne whether you say at ToJ or Starfall. If they were ever even together, they had no need to get married because they were in Dorne.

[Metopheles]

What I never got.. why Snow?

The bastard is from Dorne. made in Dorne and birthed in Dorne. Only because he is raised in the North doesn't make him a Snow.

And don't go with "Eddard=North=Snow" because then all of Bob's bastards have to be Storms.

[King Benjen II]

We still do not know, so we can only speculate. That fighting and killing in front of ToJ certainly didn't improve her health with all additional stress and screaming "Eddard". However, tearing the tower down is fishy. Why did Ned HAVE to create 8 graves with piled stones on the spot?

1. Because he wanted to destroy the ToJ - the place where his sister was terrorised. The text said it was a bitter memory, which is understandable because his sister died in the ToJ, but a bit over-the-top for Ned. Ned is not Brandon.

2. Because he wanted to honour all the dead equally

3. Because he wanted to hide who actually died there, because in order to get to a body, you not only had to travel to a remote area, but you'd have to remove piles of stones.

4. Because he wanted to remove some clues that were in the ToJ

Also, I reread the dialogue between Eddard Stark and the three knights of KG and there is no hostility there.

Puzzling...

Now this is interesting. I find #3 the most intriguing.

[Metopheles]

3. Because he wanted to hide who actually died there, because in order to get to a body, you not only had to travel to a remote area, but you'd have to remove piles of stones.

But he would have only had to burn them....

Seems a bit easier than to go all wrecking ball and tear down a defense tower.

[King Benjen II]

What I never got.. why Snow?

The bastard is from Dorne. made in Dorne and birthed in Dorne. Only because he is raised in the North doesn't make him a Snow.

And don't go with "Eddard=North=Snow" because then all of Bob's bastards have to be Storms.

It was easier and more convincing to claim a bastard from the war than act like it was Catelyn's.

And possibly to hide his identity.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yeah maybe Ned did something with Jon to find out more about him, like Oberyn did with Obara (or monks do when searching for the new Dalai)

Ned could have placed different toys or weapons, things before baby Jon, child Jon, puberty Jon and look what he takes to determine if he has Targaryen identity or something.

"Father, Sansa is very pretty, can I marry her?"

"No, but... thanks for saying that. For a minute, I doubted it"

"you doubted what?"

"Doesn't matter. Some day".

[Metopheles]

It was easier and more convincing to claim a bastard from the war than act like it was Catelyn's.

And possibly to hide his identity.

How is that easier.. He said everybody the bastard is from the south( Dorne) and no one thought that Rhaegar had a child with Lyanna. It's just a bit confusing and utterly wrong to name him Snow.

"Father, Sansa is very pretty, can I marry her?"

"No, but... thanks for saying that. For a minute, I doubted it"

"you doubted what?"

"Doesn't matter. Some day".

tsk tsk tsk... :D

[Modesty Lannister]

But he would have only had to burn them....

Seems a bit easier than to go all wrecking ball and tear down a defense tower.

You didn't get my point. What if there are no bodies there? Who can prove it? Bring an army to remove the stones? Or giants? And how on Earth did Ned manage to do it all by himself with the help of H.Reed? Maybe it was a "bitter" memory for him because his muscles hurt for months after such an endeavour. But, joking aside, I came to the following conclusions:

1. There was no way 2 men can destroy a tower. So,

a) after Lyanna's death other Stark forces joined in and destroyed the ToJ. If that happened, there would be just too many witnesses for any coverup. And in that case we can safely assume all 8 fighters were dead and that Jon could not be in the ToJ with Lyanna, because the whole army would see the baby with her and talk about it back north, but no one did. That would explain why Ned had to go to Starfall to get Jon. However, that would not explain why Ashara jumped out of a window.

2. H.Reed used magic to destroy the tower and make gravestone piles. Then, Jon may have been there with Wylla and God knows who else. Still that would not explain why Ned had to go to Starfall. He could have given the Sword of Dawn to one of his trusted men to take it there. Unless he was in love with Ashara and had to explain himself to her. It is not clear if Ashara knew he was married. So, news such as my love killed my beloved brother and will go to another woman can kill. That would explain why Ned was so guilt ridden all his life.

I do not agree with the assumption that IF Jon is indeed Lyanna's son, Ned wouldn't know about his status. Legitimacy of a child is extremely important in Westerosi society and no mother would die without at least trying to find strength to clarify that to a person who was about to foster her child.

Why Snow? Well, imagine this scenario:

King Robert: Why is there a child in your household called Jon Waters?

Ned: Well, …. I found a child near KL and brought him to Winterfell. I felt sorry for the child.

King Robert: Yeah, mate. You are so honourable.

__________

6 months later

King Robert: I investigated your story. You are hiding a Targaryen bastard. I thought you were my best friend. Call Ser Ilyn Payne.

__________

So, by taking the blame for fathering Jon, Ned keeps him safe because no one would expect him to admit that he acted dishonourably if he didn't.

Also, by sheltering a son of RT he is committing high treason against his best friend. So, the better the cover, the less suspicious would anyone, especially Robert, get.

[Crowjack]

What I never got.. why Snow?

The bastard is from Dorne. made in Dorne and birthed in Dorne. Only because he is raised in the North doesn't make him a Snow.

And don't go with "Eddard=North=Snow" because then all of Bob's bastards have to be Storms.

Part of keeping Jon's identity and parentage hidden.

[Metopheles]

To the Snow thing

He did explicitly say the child is from Dorne, so name it Sand. There would be no suspicion, because he even told where the child is from.

If he said that he had sex with Wylla in the North and named him Sand..then this would indeed be weird. But he says he is from Dorne, so he should be named Sand.

[Metopheles]

You didn't get my point. What if there are no bodies there? Who can prove it? Bring an army to remove the stones? Or giants? And how on Earth did Ned manage to do it all by himself with the help of H.Reed? Maybe it was a "bitter" memory for him because his muscles hurt for months after such an endeavour. But, joking aside, I came to the following conclusions:

1. There was no way 2 men can destroy a tower. So,

a) after Lyanna's death other Stark forces joined in and destroyed the ToJ. If that happened, there would be just too many witnesses for any coverup. And in that case we can safely assume all 8 fighters were dead and that Jon could not be in the ToJ with Lyanna, because the whole army would see the baby with her and talk about it back north, but no one did. That would explain why Ned had to go to Starfall to get Jon. However, that would not explain why Ashara jumped out of a window.

2. H.Reed used magic to destroy the tower and make gravestone piles. Then, Jon may have been there with Wylla and God knows who else. Still that would not explain why Ned had to go to Starfall. He could have given the Sword of Dawn to one of his trusted men to take it there. Unless he was in love with Ashara and had to explain himself to her. It is not clear if Ashara knew he was married. So, news such as my love killed my beloved brother and will go to another woman can kill. That would explain why Ned was so guilt ridden all his life.

I do not agree with the assumption that IF Jon is indeed Lyanna's son, Ned wouldn't know about his status. Legitimacy of a child is extremely important in Westerosi society and no mother would die without at least trying to find strength to clarify that to a person who was about to foster her child.

I think if Lyanna died in the instant, she just said take care of him. No time nor strength for lengthy story of all. I get your point here though.

But the Starfall thing..well he is honourable.. so he returns the sword himself rather than sending some random guy. He was also honourable enough to present Barbrey the head of her husband.

I still don't really grasp the thing of the destruction yet.

[Hrafntýr]

Arya, ASOS.

Judging by the use of the present perfect tense in the quote, I'd say Wylla is still serving the House of Dayne. And I say it's high time GRRM takes us to Starfall.

Thanks for the quote. It's a drag to be at work without the books... I can't very well have them on the office desk. Very clear that Wylla is still around. Though she may have no information about the legitimacy question.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Since Ned was the last person to talk to Lyanna, and she made him promise her something pretty important, it makes sense to assume that she gave him the relevant details. In other words, if Lyanna told Ned that she and Rhaegar were married then Ned would know that they were married. If R&L were married, I think it's fairly safe to assume that Lyanna told Ned as much.

That having been said, I'm with Metopheles with regard to what Ned knew or was told by Lyanna. Sure, as J. Stargaryan says, it's unlikely that "Promise me, Ned" was literally all he got out of his sister before she died, but given how little we know about the actual exchange at the Tower of Joy, it's a possibility worth exploring. What if she was too far gone by the time Ned got inside the tower and she was just muttering (a la Jon Arryn's repeating of "The seed is strong"). Maybe "Promise me, Ned" haunted Ned for 14 years partially because he never properly understood his sister's dying wish. I wouldn't put money on it, but it's certainly an interesting possibility.

It's at least clear that he understood what Promise me, Ned was referring to; Jon. I think we can assume this since he ended up taking Jon back to Winterfell. I guess it's worth considering, and your point about Jon Arryn's last words are a good example of why, but I think it's much more likely that Ned would've known at least the basic details. Whether R&L were married or not being one of them. We have no indication that she was incoherent. On the contrary, the fears goes out of her eyes when Ned gave his word and she smiled. Again, the passage:

Another bit indicating that Ned knew R&L were married.

There is no relation between Rhaegar's honor and Promise me, unless Ned knows that Rhaegar did have honor, and the honorable thing is not to bed a woman outside marriage. You cannot honor a highborn lady by putting a bastard in her belly. (Credit to Ygrain for this thought, which she shared with me.)

Regarding what Ned did or didn't know, what Lyanna did or didn't tell him: I agree that there are numerous possible scenarios. I agree that she told Ned that Jon was Rhaegar's child, assuming R+L=J. And I'm pretty darn certain that one promise was that Ned would hide Jon's Targ parentage for the sake of Jon's safety, since this seems born out by Ned's behavior with respect to Jon. But beyond that things spin off into so many possible scenarios. For example: is it simply Jon's safety from those who want to kill Targs? Or is it also from those who want to carry on Rhaegar's prophecy business? There's also the possibility that Lyanna, for all that she loved her brother, might even have withheld certain information from him, again, maybe for the sake of protecting her newborn child.

J. Stargaryen: I do think that's a fine reading of that passage. Another alternative, though, would be simply a contradiction of "dishonor" as a euphemism for "rape," as Ser Barristan uses it, and Ned affirming to Robert: don't worry, you avenged her rape, and his recollection of the promise is simply Lyanna's admission that she wasn't in fact raped, that she went willingly. I can't help but to imagine that Lyanna's deathbed words must have included some sense of shame/contrition/remorse at having caused her brother's and father's deaths and having started a war, if she did go willingly.

All excellent points. With regard to the bold, though, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment. Even if Lyanna was coherent and capable of making it clear that she was referencing baby Jon, that doesn't necessarily mean that she told him about a wedding. I can imagine a situation where she's dying, knows it, and is trying to get the most important info across to her brother in the few moments she had left. In her awful state, she may have insisted that Ned promise to take care of the baby because Robert would want to kill any child of Rhaegar's, but it's possible to get that info across without saying, "Also, we got married." Jon would be in danger even if he were illegitimate and Ned would recognize that without having to be told which side of the sheet the baby was born on.

This seems quite possible.

Rhaegar wanted three children, but he already had his "prince", a legitimate son, Aegon.

This is a beautiful, beautiful point. Yes. Yes.

We still do not know, so we can only speculate. That fighting and killing in front of ToJ certainly didn't improve her health with all additional stress and screaming "Eddard". However, tearing the tower down is fishy. Why did Ned HAVE to create 8 graves with piled stones on the spot?

1. Because he wanted to destroy the ToJ - the place where his sister was terrorised. The text said it was a bitter memory, which is understandable because his sister died in the ToJ, but … a bit over-the-top for Ned. Ned is not Brandon.

2. Because he wanted to honour all the dead equally

3. Because he wanted to hide who actually died there, because in order to get to a body, you not only had to travel to a remote area, but you'd have to remove piles of stones.

4. Because he wanted to remove some clues that were in the ToJ

Also, I reread the dialogue between Eddard Stark and the three knights of KG and there is no hostility there.

Puzzling...

Very nice, Modesty Lannister. Like others, I think #3 is the most interesting answer. Recall that Barbrey Dustin drives the point home: "Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister's bones back north, though, and there she rests..."

This quote also indicates another source of information about the ToJ, if he is still alive; we could learn it straight from the horse's mouth.

[Metopheles]

I doubt, highly even, that Rhaegar believed Aegon is the prince for a long time. At first, yes. But then, like Aemon, he doubted it. They are both very skeptical. This day it is that one the next it is dany, then female then male. "His is the song of ice and fire" maybe Rhaegar read a new requirement. to be born of someone that symbolizes fire and one that symbolizes ice. Hence he got the Stark girl in the first place. Lyanna wasn't necessarily a "beautiful" girl in terms of the classical beauty. Her brothers have anvil jaws and masculine faces, Arya even passed as boy..so I guess she wasn't the traditional beauty. Not the Venus of Milo but more like a Tilda Swinton. Beautiful but in a different way. I make this point because of the tourney and the rose. I think he wanted her blood rather than her beauty..at first.(I got in lenghts about this somewhere)

So he decided to make another prince. He fits the tptwp far better.

As I am of the M=R theory, I would even go a step further. He found out that there are people far more icy. So he got Dalla.

I think he does not know who the real prince is. Or the person that is mentioned in the ice and fire song.

So he got Aegon, whom he likely thinks he is not the prince, Jon, who he considers probably, and the wildling prince.