Dany's death!

[Ealasaid]

pikemen make an excellent defense against cavalry. That's just an observation.

Yes. All they have to do is set those pikes and impale the poor chargers in the chest. The rider goes goes down and the axe or hammer takes care of him or her (in deference to the female warriors).

[Red Rex]

That only says he's a good fighter, does not say he is a good leader of armies with strategy, which is what I believe that we were talking about.

no, they are but different pieces of the same puzzle, bith Alexander and Genghis led from the front and were the marvels of their generations, this trait Drogo shares in common with them whereas Hitler didn't

You'd have to make sure that the small folk would accept Dothraki onto Westerosi soil of course. Especially if the Faith is running around like it is.

fair enough, it's an issue of "timing" without a doubt, but with the current misrule and sociological discord the problem could be solved with logistics, preparring a quick passage route from the landing site to the lands of Danys enemies, let the dothraki loose on the "enemy" not Dany's allies small folk obviously, and rapes, mutilations, and slaughters help inspire terror in an enemy and can lead to defections

[Red Rex]

You'd have to make sure that the small folk would accept Dothraki onto Westerosi soil of course. Especially if the Faith is running around like it is.

fair enough, it's an issue of "timing" without a doubt, but with the current misrule and sociological discord the problem could be solved with logistics, preparring a quick passage route from the landing site to the lands of Danys enemies, let the dothraki loose on the "enemy" not Dany's allies small folk obviously, and rapes, mutilations, and slaughters help inspire terror in an enemy and can lead to defections

Who are we assuming to be the opposing King here?? Robert? Joffrey? Tommen? or someone else like the Faith?

Tommen

If Dany had carried Rhaego to term and birthed him, there was still no way that Dany and Drogo could have landed and/or affected events in westeros enough to have altered Tommens ascendancy to the Iron Throne

See what I said above, Gk does not equal Drogo. GK was a lot more smarter and wiser and better than Drogo will ever be (unless GRRM comes out and says that Drogo is as good as GK).

Drogo doesnt need to be GK, the man power WOULD be tere and Danys anti-slavery sentiment could have been directed in that direction with Drogo acceeding to her whim because he has a track record of doing so and it would gain him a douby large army

Umm... It is Stannis we are talking about here. You know, obey the king if he tell you to lop off your own neck Stannis?

And it's Stannis who retains lingering guilt for having betrayed his king in the first place

It also should be noted that if you only have horse riders and you tactic's so far seem to be that of a an orange rolling down a hill (or allot of oranges) that spear and pike men would fucking rape you on the field if you failed to catch them off guard.

Also they are on foreign lands they dont know them as well as the people of westeros.

these are horse ARCHERS different tactics

[doc awesome]

But that would also depend on how they use there archers because far as we know they went along with the charge putting arrows on to lamb people and other typically harmless groups.

[Red Rex]

But that would also depend on how they use there archers because far as we know they went along with the charge putting arrows on to lamb people and other typically harmless groups.

ok, I focus on the battle with the other Khal's Khalassar... the lamb men are absolutely insignificant (in my opinion for multiple reasons) strategically speaking : with this composition of assets, you'd employ them most effectively by rotating forward and back detachments of archers 4-6 rows deep with 20-25 aabreast, and have the retreating men covered by those archers coming forward, we see that the dothraki wear little to no armor and I'm not saying theyve got the mongolian composite bow, but Dany's blood riders show an unmistakeable talent for "mortality work" (is anyone else dying to see the next season of Rome or what?). now against another khalassar it certainly possible that the segments of battle would be intermixed with archers and swords men (we know they dont have armored lancers athe very least) but it's my impression that in battle each dothraki would be armed with sword, bow and some third weapon (with all the enemies they've plundered access to assorted weapons shouldnt be a prohibitive factor) but obviously we simply DONT have any textual evidence for dothraki battle tactics or a battle scene and i'll be the 1st to admit Drogo's greatest advantage against the rival Khal (other than his physical attributes) would have been the fact that the rival Khalasar would seem to have been taken in the rear and brought out of their revilry and rape by Drogo's emergence on the scene; I've just always "assumed" that this was a "strategem" employed by Drogo, and not blind luck. Furthermore the 3,000 unsullied's victory was centuries past, there's no evidence that the surrounding PERMITTED anything but a head on assault of the city (think the gateway of Troy in the latest movie version of the epic - eith the U shaped approach to the main gate) also we know nothing of the "quality of the Khal" that was defeated, but i dont think it's logical to project the long dead Khals foolishness on Drogo if anything Drogo grew up knowing about that defeat and would have learned from it. I'm fully aware that Drogo isnt the Master of Warfare that GK was but I think drawing a parallel between Drogo and Temijen's blood brother and rival and/or father in law wouldnt be outside the realm of reason. these men werent the "innovators" GK was, but GK's blood brother refused GK's offer of mercy choosind death instead of living as anything less than a chieftan in authority as well as name.

GK's blood brother had nothing short of a superiority complex, but he was no fool either, unfortunately I only recall the tactics GK employed to destroy his blood brothers army (feining a retreat with hidden ambushes for the unorganized pursuers) but I'm pretty sure segments of battle existed before GK, and with such outstanding mobility I believe battles could be said to be largely decided by the individual quality of ones individuals making up the army while in no way suggesting a primitive form of warfare, if we consider Drogo's Khalassar of 100,000 comprised of 40,000 dothraki screamers, that army could take any westerosi force comprise of the conventional ratios of skilled and unskilled men should te proper tactics be employed. I CANT say Drogo WOULD have won the Iron Thorne, shit Martin is the only one who CAN say for certain and his decision could be decided by flipping a coin, because EITHER possibility is equally probable and GRRM could justify either result

[CelticBrennus]

no, they are but different pieces of the same puzzle, bith Alexander and Genghis led from the front and were the marvels of their generations, this trait Drogo shares in common with them whereas Hitler didn't

Ghengis did NOT lead from the front. The Mongols as a habit did not have their leaders fight, and was what led the Europeans to think them cowards.

You want an indication of what would happen if the Dothraki invaded Westeros? Just look at what happened when the Mongols invaded Europe. They wrecked some badly led, and poorly diciplined field armies, and then failed to take a single major castle or city.

One great story was when after the Battle of Liegnitz (IIRC) the Mongols rode up to its commanders castle, that of Prince Henry of Silesia and yelled up 'We have killed your Prince, surrender and you shall be spared'.

The response?

'That's o.k., we didnt like him so much anyway, and his brothers are here. So why dont you come and get us.'

[morgoth]

It also should be noted that if you only have horse riders and you tactic's so far seem to be that of a an orange rolling down a hill (or allot of oranges) that spear and pike men would fucking rape you on the field if you failed to catch them off guard.

Also they are on foreign lands they dont know them as well as the people of westeros.

this is a very accurate description, if not a bit crude. Those pikemen would wipe out a charge of cavalry. The shame would be on the idiot who commanded the horses to charge.

You would have to wipe out pikeman with numerous barrages of arrows from archers.

In support of Doc Awesome's quote, these pikeman would form a very effective Phalanx and the cavalry would be broken upon their pikes.

[DanteGabriel]

Ghengis did NOT lead from the front. The Mongols as a habit did not have their leaders fight, and was what led the Europeans to think them cowards.

You want an indication of what would happen if the Dothraki invaded Westeros? Just look at what happened when the Mongols invaded Europe. They wrecked some badly led, and poorly diciplined field armies, and then failed to take a single major castle or city.

One great story was when after the Battle of Liegnitz (IIRC) the Mongols rode up to its commanders castle, that of Prince Henry of Silesia and yelled up 'We have killed your Prince, surrender and you shall be spared'.

The response?

'That's o.k., we didnt like him so much anyway, and his brothers are here. So why dont you come and get us.'

Heh, I guess that stuff wasn't covered on The History Channel.

[Horus Ex Machina]

this is a very accurate description, if not a bit crude. Those pikemen would wipe out a charge of cavalry. The shame would be on the idiot who commanded the horses to charge.

You would have to wipe out pikeman with numerous barrages of arrows from archers.

In support of Doc Awesome's quote, these pikeman would form a very effective Phalanx and the cavalry would be broken upon their pikes.

Obviously the Genghis Khan reference is extremely accurate. Look what happened to the Dothraki against the 3000 of Qohor, and that was only against disciplined eunuchs with scant armor and long spears. Against charging armored and mounted lancers they would fare little better. Consider their experience most of the Free Cities rarely challenge them but rather wine and dine them in the hopes that they will leave quickly. It makes sense that Tyrion should show contempt towards this policy. They don't have the necessary skills the types of devices they will need to lay in for a long seige. Things like siege towers and trebuchets and tunnelers. But using a Dothraki Khalasar was Viserys policy and he was obviously grasping at straws by that point.

[CelticBrennus]

Heh, I guess that stuff wasn't covered on The History Channel.

Nope, for stuff like that you need to actually dig into primary sources. But it is understandable that Rex would have missed it though, he was too busy predicting 9/11.

Basically, when looking at this senario, you need to keep in mind that the social structure of Westeros, feudalism, is designed in response to continual attacks and raids. They have massive numbers of well fortified strongholds, garrisoned by large numbers of well armored and trained men, numbering in the hundreds of thousands.

The strength of horse nomad warriors is in their tactical and strategic mobility, not in their armaments - which were inferior to crossbows in terms of distance and power (See Richard I's Crusade). They maintained that mobility because they kept massive trains of horses, up to 18 or 20 if you believe Marco Polo. That many steppe ponies requires a massive amount of fodder every day, something that is rarely a problem when on the steppe, but becomes a serious issue when you leave that band of territory.

There are no vast plains of grasslands in places like Westeros, which has a number of heavily forrested areas, and much the rest is full of fields of crops and orchards. Those crops are not suitable for fodder, and even if left fallow, will not turn to grasslands for some time to come, and if cleared from forrest, will return to forrest - not where you want to be grazing.

So, if the Dothraki invade, in short order their horses will be ridden to exhaustion or will have starved to death, they will fail to take any major castles as they cannot remain in place long enough (due to the need to find fodder for their horses), and if they sacrifice their mobility, they will be destroyed by the more heavily armored Westerosi knights. Just look at how Jorah was able to stand up to the more skilled Dothraki bloodriders, due solely to his armor.

Thats what happened in Europe in 1241. The Mongols could invade and wipe out the poorly led, and hastily organised armies of Hungary and Poland (two weaker, less cohesive or organized states) but fail to take any castles, let alone maintain a siege for a year or two. Within 6-8 months they had exhausted the available fodder of the Hungarian plain, and were forced to return home.

Like they say, amatuers talk tactic, professionals talk logistics.

[Red Rex]

Heh, I guess that stuff wasn't covered on The History Channel.

Dante Dante Dante, I miss stated my point and heres what I meant : Hitler WASN'T a physically imposing specimen, or extraordinary warrior, Ghengis WAS in his own right a highly trained/skilled/imposing martial figure... I aggrivates me that the only depiction of him (or atleast the widest circulated version) is that of the chineese propogandists which shows him as fat and docile which he was not

Nope, for stuff like that you need to actually dig into primary sources. But it is understandable that Rex would have missed it though, he was too busy predicting 9/11

LOL I have read 2 and am about to start my 3rd "primary" source and yes I stretched the facts to accomodate the point I was trying to make, but it is VALID that Ghengis WAS a skilled killer and far more imposing physically than Hitler, Ghengis killed his grown older cousin with his little brothers help before he reached peuberty or immediately after for heavens sakes

[CelticBrennus]

I aggrivates me that the only depiction of him (or atleast the widest circulated version) is that of the chineese propogandists which shows him as fat and docile which he was not

Showing him looking fat would have been considered a compliment at the time. Only the rich and powerful got enough food to afford to be fat, therefore it is a status symbol of the day, much like being tanned and fit is today.

LOL I have read 2 and am about to start my 3rd "primary" source and yes I stretched the facts to accomodate the point I was trying to make, but it is VALID that Ghengis WAS a skilled killer and far more imposing physically than Hitler, Ghengis killed his grown older cousin with his little brothers help before he reached peuberty or immediately after for heavens sakes

Two of three? Wow. Just wow.

Of course Ghengis was more physically dangerous then Hitler - he grew up in a martial society. Hitler too was a soldier, as much as any man of his generation was, and was wounded in combat.

As for the killing of his cousin, how do you know that is not mere propaganda as well? Which sources say it, and how reliable are they?

[Red Rex]

Showing him looking fat would have been considered a compliment at the time. Only the rich and powerful got enough food to afford to be fat, therefore it is a status symbol of the day, much like being tanned and fit is today.

Two of three? Wow. Just wow.

Of course Ghengis was more physically dangerous then Hitler - he grew up in a martial society. Hitler too was a soldier, as much as any man of his generation was, and was wounded in combat.

As for the killing of his cousin, how do you know that is not mere propaganda as well? Which sources say it, and how reliable are they?

hence it was a status symbol to be fat in the chineese and sometimes european societies it was NOT a sign of status in mongolian society...

sources of Ghengis killing his cousin who robbed his little brother of the bird he shot down : "Ghengis Khan" by RP Lister, it's mentioned in other books but not those that I have around me at the moment

[CelticBrennus]

hence it was a status symbol to be fat in the chineese and sometimes european societies it was NOT a sign of status in mongolian society...

Proof? It was universally a status symbol in virtually every single pre-modern society you can find record of.

What, no discussion of the points I raised about the inability of the Dothraki to operate on Westerosi soil?

sources of Ghengis killing his cousin who robbed his little brother of the bird he shot down : "Ghengis Khan" by RP Lister, it's mentioned in other books but not those that I have around me at the moment

In any case, why are we supposed to be impressed with this? It is impressive that GK was a kinslayer? Besides, a two on one is hardly fair. I mean, if he had beaten him alone in single combat thats one thing. As is, there is no reason you have given to be impressed.

[Sam the Slayer]

I just really hope she doesn't just waltz into Westeros and win it all without even trying.

I mean, I'd still enjoy reading the books, but I know I just won't be as satisfied if (what did someone call her in a previous post, Betty Sue?) comes out on top. And I know from reading all the posts about how dang awesome Dany is that my opinion isn't a popular one on this board.

She just doesn't feel like part of the story. It would be like in Lord of the rings if right at the battle of Minas Tirith, after all the involved characters have struggled and postured and made it to that point, an unknown army arrived from across the sea, beat Sauron, and was just like, "hey, now Middle Earth is ours!"

A "Mary Sue" is, according to wikipedia "a is a pejorative term for a fictional character who is portrayed in an idealized way and who is generally lacking in any truly noteworthy flaws" This is an attack leveled frequently at protagonists of fan fiction, specially when said character has more than a few traits in common with the author.

read this link for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Now, lets see the evidence pointing to Dany as a Mary Sue:

"uncommon eye or hair colors" - check!

"exotic names, pets, or possessions, often ones with great perceived mystical or magical significance." - check!

"often will have experienced abuse or other hardships — though they are often said to seldom if ever display any evidence in personality or behavior of having been traumatized." - check!

"They are nearly always exceptionally attractive, with said attractiveness often being described in great detail and typically noticed frequently by the other characters." - check!!

However she doesnt have the Main Trait of Mary Sues, which is the clear lack of flaws and limitations, where it is clear that Dany has commited several grave mistakes, like abandoning two conquered cities that could have been used as a powerbase, dismissing Jorah to satisfy her pride, blindly allowing Mirri Maz Dur to care for her husband, dismissing the dothraki healers, etc, etc, etc...

[Red Rex]

Proof? It was universally a status symbol in virtually every single pre-modern society you can find record of.

then why is it that John of Gaunt is noted for having particularly muscular calves, thats not the trait of a fat person, its a characteritic of someone muscled by war

What, no discussion of the points I raised about the inability of the Dothraki to operate on Westerosi soil?

I'd already answered those points in previous posts

It is impressive that GK was a kinslayer? Besides, a two on one is hardly fair. I mean, if he had beaten him alone in single combat thats one thing. As is, there is no reason you have given to be impressed.

no the fact that ghengis and his brother were 11 and 9 respectively is a characteristic worthy of note when killing a full grown man, additionally it displays how LOYAL ghengis was

[CelticBrennus]

then why is it that John of Gaunt is noted for having particularly muscular calves, thats not the trait of a fat person, its a characteritic of someone muscled by war

Because it is a trait that is common for horsemen to possess. Many pre-modern portraits and such make a point of displaying a persons legs for that very reason.

Besides, you already acknowledged that you agree with my point vis a vi Europeans.

I'd already answered those points in previous posts

Sorry, didnt see the post, could you link the the page?

Also, why did you skip attempting to refute my point about Mongol commanders routinely riding in the rear, in safety, when you were arguiing the opposite?

no the fact that ghengis and his brother were 11 and 9 respectively is a characteristic worthy of note when killing a full grown man, additionally it displays how LOYAL ghengis was

So they probably shot him with arrows, the bow being the customary weapon. In any case, you have not shown it is not simply pro Ghengis propaganda.

[doc awesome]

Umm I did not read where you told us how the Dothraki could fight in Westeros when it lacks the huge grass lands ideal for there style of combat.

Edit: curse you CelticBrennus.

[CelticBrennus]

Its not just the logistical side of things. The lack of sheer open ground would limit their mobility, and constrict their approaches of attack, depriving them of their primary tactical and strategic advantage. Besides, when the Dothraki army is forced to split apart to search for fodder for 18 horses a man, they will be easy prey for the vastly more numerous and heavily armed and armored Westerosi knights.

You will note that no horse nomad type army ever conquered any territory beyond Germany, and even Attila's army was reduced to fighting on foot by the time it reached Chalons IIRC.

[CelticBrennus]

Dante that only works when crops are ready to be harvested and if the Dothraki dont have a base to bring in supplies (which they would have in dorne), and if the dothraki slaughter all the lords small folk there's no one to collect the next harvest, so it sets of a count down to starvation

Oh, you mean this.

Sorry, you still failed to address how they would bring in the fodder needed, let alone if Dorne was even capable of providing the millions of tons of fodder needed, and why they would so, given the complete lack of any attention to logistics shown by any Dothraki we have ever seen.