Heresy 109

[King Benjen II]

Good call.

Thanks :)

:commie:

[Mrs. Jon Snow]

In the book Mel raised the matter with Davos when he was imprisoned.

Ahh yes thank you! I had forgotten that she visits him in his cell.

[Mrs. Jon Snow]

So on the topic of fire I had a thought about the red lot.

You guys have mentioned about fire consuming/ice preserving but I feel like looking only at the red lot we see these two distinct things happening. Ill start by looking at Mel since we know the most about her.

Throughout the entire series so far we see Mel taking fire from people in the form of life making them closer in a way to the ice side of the equation. She literally takes the life force from Stannis to re purpose it into his "sons" which in essence makes him more like the Undead characters we have seen. Perhaps Stannis has had life drained from him to the point where he is like Lady Stonehart in that he has one single goal, and despite any consequences he is hell bent on getting his way, although admittedly there isn't much evidence for this.

We also have Mance who wanted to be free from the glamour since he could feel it when he slept, giving me the impression that it was wearing down on him. She herself admits in her POV that the glamour is even a drain on her when the Lord of Bones is burning.She also seems to be burning or sacrificing people quite a few people to her god. Her relationship with R'hollor seems to be taking life/fire from people or consuming their fire.

Thoros on the other hand was giving the life/fire to people in the form of resurrecting Lord Beric (and by extension Cat). We have been told many times that only death pays for life but we haven't seen Thoros sacrifice anyone to R'hollor as payment for Lord Beric's multiple resurrections. He seems to be preserving the fire.

We are told Mororro pays for curing Victarion by killing someone on the ship although not due to fire. He therefore consumes and preserves.

I wonder if Mel's sacrifices have helped pay for Lord Beric's life, and if perhaps given the number of people she may have burned there is an Un-army that has yet to show up in a similar fashion the the wights.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Hey gang! Hope you don't mind but I've got a new crackpot I needed to unload somewhere, but at least it's short and sweet with no evidence to dwell on, lol. Thank you for entertaining me again but at least I don't do this very often. :cheers:

Ok, I know y'all have discussed this bit of text from different angles where Leaf says:

“For him. The Bran boy. I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home.”

Then the chapter ends with BR telling Bran:

“You will never walk again, Bran,” the pale lips promised, “but you will fly.”

First speculating Bran could warg a dragon as it seems BR may be implying something grander than crows and if you juxtapose this with what Leaf says you can really play and stretch some things.

My crackpot; Leaf says she was "born in the time of the dragons" and "for Bran" she went out to "watch and listen and learn" so what if she went out to learn how to warg dragons to help Bran learn? Leaf being tired of walking so she came back could imply that she never actually rode a dragon but only warged one.

Leaf's "heart was weary" could mean her dragon died so she did not have the heart, or the need, to continue as she had already been doing this "for two hundred years" - which btw seems to be the round about life span of a dragon according to GRRM who said Balerion died of old age at around two hundred years old.

Since this is a crackpot anyway for fun I have even picked a dragon - Grey Ghost from TPatQ, who according to the wiki - was a notably shy dragon who avoided men and their works for years at a time. He preferred to feed on fish and was often glimpsed flying low over the narrow sea, snatching prey from the waters.

Futhermore - Grey Ghost was a wild dragon that dwelt in a smoking vent high on the desolate eastern side of the volcano called Dragonmont. He was named by Dragonstone's smallfolk who could rarely find him. He was never claimed nor ridden by any man, living or dead. -and - During the Dance of the Dragons, Jacaerys Velaryon sought new dragonriders to fight The Greens. Some of the dragonseeds looked for the Grey Ghost but could not find him as he was ever an elusive creature. Grey Ghost was killed and partially devoured by Sunfyre upon his return to Dragonstone.

[Eira Seren]

So on the topic of fire I had a thought about the red lot.

You guys have mentioned about fire consuming/ice preserving but I feel like looking only at the red lot we see these two distinct things happening. Ill start by looking at Mel since we know the most about her.

Throughout the entire series so far we see Mel taking fire from people in the form of life making them closer in a way to the ice side of the equation. She literally takes the life force from Stannis to re purpose it into his "sons" which in essence makes him more like the Undead characters we have seen. Perhaps Stannis has had life drained from him to the point where he is like Lady Stonehart in that he has one single goal, and despite any consequences he is hell bent on getting his way, although admittedly there isn't much evidence for this.

We also have Mance who wanted to be free from the glamour since he could feel it when he slept, giving me the impression that it was wearing down on him. She herself admits in her POV that the glamour is even a drain on her when the Lord of Bones is burning.She also seems to be burning or sacrificing people quite a few people to her god. Her relationship with R'hollor seems to be taking life/fire from people or consuming their fire.

Thoros on the other hand was giving the life/fire to people in the form of resurrecting Lord Beric (and by extension Cat). We have been told many times that only death pays for life but we haven't seen Thoros sacrifice anyone to R'hollor as payment for Lord Beric's multiple resurrections. He seems to be preserving the fire.

We are told Mororro pays for curing Victarion by killing someone on the ship although not due to fire. He therefore consumes and preserves.

I wonder if Mel's sacrifices have helped pay for Lord Beric's life, and if perhaps given the number of people she may have burned there is an Un-army that has yet to show up in a similar fashion the the wights.

This is quite interesting. Mel describes the glamour as a shadow that can be drawn out and worn. My guess is that Mel's magic must be used to a. draw it out and b. keep it cohesive and in a certain place

This could explain why so many dragon-hatching attempts may have failed, whoever was trying it lacked the ability somehow to harness the shadow/animating spirit and direct it to the right place (the egg)?

[TheButcherCrow]

Craster a direct descendant of the Night's King. That is all.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

So on the topic of fire I had a thought about the red lot.

You guys have mentioned about fire consuming/ice preserving but I feel like looking only at the red lot we see these two distinct things happening. Ill start by looking at Mel since we know the most about her.

Throughout the entire series so far we see Mel taking fire from people in the form of life making them closer in a way to the ice side of the equation. She literally takes the life force from Stannis to re purpose it into his "sons" which in essence makes him more like the Undead characters we have seen. Perhaps Stannis has had life drained from him to the point where he is like Lady Stonehart in that he has one single goal, and despite any consequences he is hell bent on getting his way, although admittedly there isn't much evidence for this.

We also have Mance who wanted to be free from the glamour since he could feel it when he slept, giving me the impression that it was wearing down on him. She herself admits in her POV that the glamour is even a drain on her when the Lord of Bones is burning.She also seems to be burning or sacrificing people quite a few people to her god. Her relationship with R'hollor seems to be taking life/fire from people or consuming their fire.

Thoros on the other hand was giving the life/fire to people in the form of resurrecting Lord Beric (and by extension Cat). We have been told many times that only death pays for life but we haven't seen Thoros sacrifice anyone to R'hollor as payment for Lord Beric's multiple resurrections. He seems to be preserving the fire.

We are told Mororro pays for curing Victarion by killing someone on the ship although not due to fire. He therefore consumes and preserves.

I wonder if Mel's sacrifices have helped pay for Lord Beric's life, and if perhaps given the number of people she may have burned there is an Un-army that has yet to show up in a similar fashion the the wights.

.

Good post, and I think this is worth a continuing look. I've noted several mentions of the "fire consumes" business lately, and it's been attributed every time to Maester Aemon. But interestingly, Aemon is not the first character to make this observation... in ASOS, we first get this from Lord Beric:

-----

"Fire consumes." Lord Beric stood behind them, and there was something in his voice that silenced Thoros at once. "It consumes, and when it is done there is nothing left. Nothing."

"Beric. Sweet friend." The priest touched the lightning lord on the forearm. "What are you saying?"

"Nothing I have not said before. Six times, Thoros? Six times is too many." He turned away abruptly....

-----

So, while I understand how the resurrections of Beric and Catelyn may give the appearance of "preservation"... based on Beric's commentary here, I think it's actually something quite different. It's fire magic, not blood magic, but I wonder if the same rule applies in a way: "only death can pay for life." There are a couple of other comments by Lord Beric regarding his inability to remember the people and places of his life that seem to support the idea that each "resurrection" by fire seems to burn away, or consume, a portion of his humanity.

Later, Thoros reflects to Brienne (in AFFC) on the resurrection of Catelyn as Stoneheart, saying that he had actually refused to even try reviving her, because she had been dead "too long" - but Beric himself had knelt to give her the kiss of life, and the flame passed from him to her. Thoros calls her a "grimmer shadow" than Beric had been. In fact, when Brienne first sees Stoneheart's face, she exclaims "they told me you were dead," and Thoros actually says: "She is..." (Present tense.)

I've been thinking some lately about the contrasts Martin sets up between notions of justice, on the one hand, and vengeance on the other. With respect to the War of the Usurper (the Rebellion), I think this was essentially the difference between Ned and Robert. Ned saw Justice as the end goal: "Why did we rise against Aerys Targaryen... if not to put an end to the murder of children," he says when he refuses to partake in Dany's assassination. Robert saw it as an issue of Vengeance: "[We] rose to put an end to Targaryens!" was his response to Ned.

The Brotherhood without Banners was sent out by Ned Stark, in the name of Robert Baratheon, to capture Gregor Clegane. Ned was quite explicit, when choosing Beric Dondarrion's company and assigning the task, that it was Justice, not Vengeance, that was to be administered. That's the rationale he gives for sending Beric and not Loras Tyrell to handle the job.

Yet now that the torch has passed from Beric to Stoneheart, Thoros indicates that Justice but a memory:

-----

"Justice." Thoros smiled wanly. "I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves. We were king's men, knights, and heroes . . . but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all."

"Are you saying you are monsters?"

"I am saying we are human. You are not the only one with wounds, Lady Brienne. Some of my brothers were good men when this began. Some were . . . less good, shall we say? Though there are those who say it does not matter how a man begins, but only how he ends..."

-----

As I don't mean to ramble, I'll pull this together with just a couple of thoughts.

One is that it seems to me that the transition of leadership (and the flame of life) from Beric to Stoneheart completes a transformation of the BwB from an agency of the King's Justice, to a full out vigilante group intent on Vengeance. The transformation begins well before Stoneheart takes over and, while I haven't done a full read-through to confirm this, I wouldn't be surprised if it correlates with the "consumption" of Lord Beric's life (by fire) over time, as he was repeatedly revived by Thoros.

And my second thought is more about the big-picture theme - inasmuch as this interplay between Justice and Vengeance comprises one variation of the song of Ice and Fire. It's not quite a parallel to the easy reading of the poem Martin has admitted as an inspiration for his series title - Robert Frost's Fire and Ice - but it's close. The focus here is on Fire/Vengeance, rather than on Fire/Desire... and I'd have to think a bit more about whether Justice could be tied to Ice (in Frost's poem Ice aligns with Hate, which seems quite different). But I think the Fire / Vengeance connection is fairly well developed, beyond just the BwB storyline. It plays a central role in Sandor Clegane's storyline, for instance. And it is all but explicitly laid out by Doran Martell at the end of Arianne's last chapter in AFFC, though again Justice also makes an appearance:

-----

"[Quentyn] has gone to bring us back our heart's desire."

She narrowed her eyes. "what is our heart's desire?"

"Vengeance." His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. "Justice." Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, "Fire and blood."

-----

[Phillip Frye]

Black Crow:

We all hope that you made it back safe and sound from Berlin. Just to bring you up to speed, so you don't have to go back and read an entire thread:

We devoted the last week of Heresy to discussing the budding romance between Sandor and Sansa. Wolfmaid and Addicted to Snow agree that this will be a major part of the plot in The Winds of Winter.

We are all interested in hearing your thoughts about this discussion.

[Tyryan Lannister]

This week on Game of Thrones:

Shit is starting to get real.

That is all.

(no Heresy, sadly)

EDIT: Grade it an AB--solid episode, but still not quite on the level of that season premiere

[WierWood Wolf]

.

Good post, and I think this is worth a continuing look. I've noted several mentions of the "fire consumes" business lately, and it's been attributed every time to Maester Aemon. But interestingly, Aemon is not the first character to make this observation... in ASOS, we first get this from Lord Beric:

-----

"Fire consumes." Lord Beric stood behind them, and there was something in his voice that silenced Thoros at once. "It consumes, and when it is done there is nothing left. Nothing."

"Beric. Sweet friend." The priest touched the lightning lord on the forearm. "What are you saying?"

"Nothing I have not said before. Six times, Thoros? Six times is too many." He turned away abruptly....

-----

So, while I understand how the resurrections of Beric and Catelyn may give the appearance of "preservation"... based on Beric's commentary here, I think it's actually something quite different. It's fire magic, not blood magic, but I wonder if the same rule applies in a way: "only death can pay for life." There are a couple of other comments by Lord Beric regarding his inability to remember the people and places of his life that seem to support the idea that each "resurrection" by fire seems to burn away, or consume, a portion of his humanity.

Later, Thoros reflects to Brienne (in AFFC) on the resurrection of Catelyn as Stoneheart, saying that he had actually refused to even try reviving her, because she had been dead "too long" - but Beric himself had knelt to give her the kiss of life, and the flame passed from him to her. Thoros calls her a "grimmer shadow" than Beric had been. In fact, when Brienne first sees Stoneheart's face, she exclaims "they told me you were dead," and Thoros actually says: "She is..." (Present tense.)

I've been thinking some lately about the contrasts Martin sets up between notions of justice, on the one hand, and vengeance on the other. With respect to the War of the Usurper (the Rebellion), I think this was essentially the difference between Ned and Robert. Ned saw Justice as the end goal: "Why did we rise against Aerys Targaryen... if not to put an end to the murder of children," he says when he refuses to partake in Dany's assassination. Robert saw it as an issue of Vengeance: "[We] rose to put an end to Targaryens!" was his response to Ned.

The Brotherhood without Banners was sent out by Ned Stark, in the name of Robert Baratheon, to capture Gregor Clegane. Ned was quite explicit, when choosing Beric Dondarrion's company and assigning the task, that it was Justice, not Vengeance, that was to be administered. That's the rationale he gives for sending Beric and not Loras Tyrell to handle the job.

Yet now that the torch has passed from Beric to Stoneheart, Thoros indicates that Justice but a memory:

-----

"Justice." Thoros smiled wanly. "I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves. We were king's men, knights, and heroes . . . but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all."

"Are you saying you are monsters?"

"I am saying we are human. You are not the only one with wounds, Lady Brienne. Some of my brothers were good men when this began. Some were . . . less good, shall we say? Though there are those who say it does not matter how a man begins, but only how he ends..."

-----

As I don't mean to ramble, I'll pull this together with just a couple of thoughts.

One is that it seems to me that the transition of leadership (and the flame of life) from Beric to Stoneheart completes a transformation of the BwB from an agency of the King's Justice, to a full out vigilante group intent on Vengeance. The transformation begins well before Stoneheart takes over and, while I haven't done a full read-through to confirm this, I wouldn't be surprised if it correlates with the "consumption" of Lord Beric's life (by fire) over time, as he was repeatedly revived by Thoros.

And my second thought is more about the big-picture theme - inasmuch as this interplay between Justice and Vengeance comprises one variation of the song of Ice and Fire. It's not quite a parallel to the easy reading of the poem Martin has admitted as an inspiration for his series title - Robert Frost's Fire and Ice - but it's close. The focus here is on Fire/Vengeance, rather than on Fire/Desire... and I'd have to think a bit more about whether Justice could be tied to Ice (in Frost's poem Ice aligns with Hate, which seems quite different). But I think the Fire / Vengeance connection is fairly well developed, beyond just the BwB storyline. It plays a central role in Sandor Clegane's storyline, for instance. And it is all but explicitly laid out by Doran Martell at the end of Arianne's last chapter in AFFC, though again Justice also makes an appearance:

-----

"[Quentyn] has gone to bring us back our heart's desire."

She narrowed her eyes. "what is our heart's desire?"

"Vengeance." His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. "Justice." Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, "Fire and blood."

-----

Great post! I've been thinking about the vengeance vs. Justice theme GRRM presents. The thought that fire consumes and ice preserves goes well with vengeance and justice.

Justice as ice preserves humanity and vengeance as fire consumes the individual til there isn't much left. A story of how the two get confused at times. Arya's mantra/prayer list of names comes to mind. Is it justice or solely vengeance she seeks and how it consumes her identity.

Your thoughts on BwB and how it's changed is interesting as well. Thoros to me seems to have gone from a righteous priest doling out justice( hanging not just Lannisters but also Northmen) to a warn out leader with second thoughts about the mission. In fact I read the dialogue between Brienne and Thoros as if he was almost apologizing to her for whats to come. His second thoughts are about following an avenging (Angel? Demon?) and what the consequences will be,to continue following her. I wouldn't be surprised , if in the end, Thoros is the one to make an end of LS.

[WierWood Wolf]

This week on Game of Thrones:

Shit is starting to get real.

That is all.

(no Heresy, sadly)

EDIT: Grade it an AB--solid episode, but still not quite on the level of that season premiere

I didn't notice Ser Dontos headgear last week. It's bunny ears. It reminds me of Dany saying, with regard to wearing a toqar, if I'm going to be the Queen of the Rabbits I'll need to don my floppy ears.

[King of Winters]

This week on Game of Thrones:

Shit is starting to get real.

That is all.

(no Heresy, sadly)

EDIT: Grade it an AB--solid episode, but still not quite on the level of that season premiere

In the episode 4 preview right at the end there's a brief, blurry, glimpse of a WW after Bran's scared by something, maybe a vision he sees. But it looks like we'll be seeing a WW next episode.

[Melifeather]

Sandor Clegane's robbery of the farmer was out of character, don't you think? I've always viewed his character as somewhat honorable, doing as he was told, but after leaving Kings Landing he's on a path of redemption. That's what makes the Quiet Isle attractive to him, because he desires to atone.

I missed not having Strong Belwas doing the killing of Meereen's champion versus HBOs version of Daario Naharis doing it.

I also found it interesting that Margaery seemed upset with Lady Olenna over Jofferey's death. I thought she was more involved with the plot.

Lastly, why make the Nights Watch numbers so few? 100 versus 10,000 wildlings? A little unrealistic in my opinion. I should go back and re watch but didn't Pip say the women of Craster's Keep we're in charge now of Rast? And maybe I'm remembering wrong, but didn't Jon make an argument about going back to Craster's to retrieve as many brothers as they can in order to prevent Mance from learning how few in numbers they are?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I've been out of town for a week, busily trying to get caught up so I can get back to contributing.

[Melifeather]

Hey gang! Hope you don't mind but I've got a new crackpot I needed to unload somewhere, but at least it's short and sweet with no evidence to dwell on, lol. Thank you for entertaining me again but at least I don't do this very often. :cheers:

Ok, I know y'all have discussed this bit of text from different angles where Leaf says:

“For him. The Bran boy. I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home.”

Then the chapter ends with BR telling Bran:

“You will never walk again, Bran,” the pale lips promised, “but you will fly.”

First speculating Bran could warg a dragon as it seems BR may be implying something grander than crows and if you juxtapose this with what Leaf says you can really play and stretch some things.

My crackpot; Leaf says she was "born in the time of the dragons" and "for Bran" she went out to "watch and listen and learn" so what if she went out to learn how to warg dragons to help Bran learn? Leaf being tired of walking so she came back could imply that she never actually rode a dragon but only warged one.

Leaf's "heart was weary" could mean her dragon died so she did not have the heart, or the need, to continue as she had already been doing this "for two hundred years" - which btw seems to be the round about life span of a dragon according to GRRM who said Balerion died of old age at around two hundred years old.

Since this is a crackpot anyway for fun I have even picked a dragon - Grey Ghost from TPatQ, who according to the wiki - was a notably shy dragon who avoided men and their works for years at a time. He preferred to feed on fish and was often glimpsed flying low over the narrow sea, snatching prey from the waters.

Futhermore - Grey Ghost was a wild dragon that dwelt in a smoking vent high on the desolate eastern side of the volcano called Dragonmont. He was named by Dragonstone's smallfolk who could rarely find him. He was never claimed nor ridden by any man, living or dead. -and - During the Dance of the Dragons, Jacaerys Velaryon sought new dragonriders to fight The Greens. Some of the dragonseeds looked for the Grey Ghost but could not find him as he was ever an elusive creature. Grey Ghost was killed and partially devoured by Sunfyre upon his return to Dragonstone.

When Leaf says, "for him. The Bran boy..." she means that she was speaking the Common Tongue for his benefit, and that she learned Common Tongue while walking amongst men. It does not mean that she went out to learn for Bran's benefit, because she would have been out walking prior to Bloodraven becoming the greenseer.

[ThunderG]

When Leaf says, "for him. The Bran boy..." she means that she was speaking the Common Tongue for his benefit, and that she learned Common Tongue while walking amongst men. It does not mean that she went out to learn for Bran's benefit, because she would have been out walking prior to Bloodraven becoming the greenseer.

But doesn't that imply that either Bloodraven was speaking the language of the CotF or there has been some miscommunication between Bloodraven and the CotF thus the need for Leaf to learn the common tongue?

Crackpot: Bloodraven woke the White Walkers by mistake?

[Lord Martin Sheol]

This week on Game of Thrones:

Shit is starting to get real.

That is all.

(no Heresy, sadly)

EDIT: Grade it an AB--solid episode, but still not quite on the level of that season premiere

I didn't really liked the episode, Many scenes were just... weird. I did liked the ending though, not the duel but the ending.

[Elaena Targaryen]

When Leaf says, "for him. The Bran boy..." she means that she was speaking the Common Tongue for his benefit, and that she learned Common Tongue while walking amongst men. It does not mean that she went out to learn for Bran's benefit, because she would have been out walking prior to Bloodraven becoming the greenseer.

Oh I know that, and I did not forget BR, this is what Meera asks and Leaf responds - Meera said, “You speak the Common Tongue now.” “For him. The Bran boy.... then Leaf told her tale - it does not take two hundred years just to learn the common tongue - but she brought up being born in the time of dragons so I was playing around with that.

As I said my post was meant simply just a crackpot and that I was stretching some things :dunno:

[Modesty Lannister]

Great post. Ties well with my previous one. I said that Red Priesthood magic was unreliable, flickering between the side of ice and fire/death and life/justice and vengeance. I think it's all about intent. Thoros loves this friend and acts out of love, gives him life and that gift takes its toll on Thoros himself since the man lost a lot of weight due to his newly awoken powers. Mel sucks life out of burned people, Stannis etc. I think the kiss Mance mentioned is not related to sex, but sucking his life force in order to create the glamour. Yes, Mel speaks about fire consuming her, but she is intact and forever young. Moqorro is, imo, more similar to Mel than Thoros. I think he killed Victarion and brought him back to life "cured" while offering another human sacrifice. So, it boiled down to intent - if it's selfless or love driven, red power can give life, but if it's selfish and death or vengeance driven, red power can give a life while taking another. Therefore, Red Priesthood stands between ice&fire right at the borderline. Intent of the priests themselves is the very thing that brings their powers to the side of ice or fire.

[SlackBladder]

guys

guys

hear me out here

what if

guys

what if

nobody is azor ahai?