Book vs. Show Characters: Better, Worse, Mixed, or just Different?

[HairGrowsBack]

Yep I realise that, but the books do also establish that Loras does actually have ability. The show doesn't.

Oh, I agree. He's basically the Gay Dude™, that other characters (and the writers) can joke about. Which is a damn shame, because he's really enjoyable and interesting in the books.

[HairGrowsBack]

Not entirely sure why, but show Cat bothered me, even though I think Michelle Fairley is a wonderful actress.

Because they took her story and qualities away from her to give them to Robb,(and don't get me started on that "it was all because I couldn't love a motherless child" scene)

They've wasted Fairley's amazing talent.

[Rill Redthorn]

Oh, I agree. He's basically the Gay Dude™, that other characters (and the writers) can joke about. Which is a damn shame, because he's really enjoyable and interesting in the books.

Yeah, I was very displeased to have both Loras and Renly turned swishy. There's nothing wrong with a gay man deciding to be flamboyant if he wants to, but it's so wrong for both of these guys in the books. Plus Loras being a gigolo instead of faithful to Renly... :ack: :ack: :ack:

[HairGrowsBack]

Yeah, I was very displeased to have both Loras and Renly turned swishy. There's nothing wrong with a gay man deciding to be flamboyant if he wants to, but it's so wrong for both of these guys in the books. Plus Loras being a gigolo instead of faithful to Renly... :ack: :ack: :ack:

"When the sun has set, no candle can replace it.. but this guy will do".

[Rill Redthorn]

"When the sun has set, no candle can replace it.. but this guy will do".

"When the sun has set, no candle can replace it -- but you can flick my Bic if you want to, pretty boy!"

Yeah...no. :thumbsdown:

[David Selig]

He didn't do anything to Tommen. He just made a threat to Cersei, pretending to be absolutely horrible and twisted (using the fact that she has such an opinion of him), which he, of course, never had an intention to do.

Actually he was undecided on that, that's why he was so relieved later he didn't have Tommen and wouldn't be forced the choice between abusing his nephew and proving that he was just bluffing.

Apart from Symon Silver Tongue, the 'whitewashing' has mostly been in his relationships with women.

Not really. They didn't show him breaking Marillion's fingers gleefully, how he gave the Antler Men to Joff's "justice" without a trial or anything, they didn't show him letting Timett go free after Varys told him he was a murderer, his intention to turn the Vale into a wasteland because he was mad at Lysa...basically all of his morally questionable acts were cut except the ones which are too important for the plot, i.e. him siding with his family.

Then there are quite a few added scenes like the cringe-worthy one last week with him and Pod, which make him look much better than he is in the books.

[Le Cygne]

This was on another thread...

[SlowLoras]

Oh, I agree. He's basically the Gay Dude™, that other characters (and the writers) can joke about. Which is a damn shame, because he's really enjoyable and interesting in the books.

It's a little depressing because there's this popular narrative that a gay man can never be a 'true' badass - they're always cast as effeminate and flouncy and promiscuous, which is an irritating stereotype, especially since book!Loras is none of those things. He's flamboyant, yes, but no less than, say, Daario - who proves that flamboyant isn't an exclusively homosexual trait.

I'd have loved to see badass Loras, faithful to Renly and fierce in battle, but apparently the showrunners are incapable of writing a homosexual man who isn't some kind of cliche - see also: Renly talking about clothes when Margaery's undressing in front of him. Really? Actually Renly suffered from this a little too. In the books, he's described as eagerly participating in melees (I think) even though he's not especially good at it. In the show, he shies away from fighting entirely, at least when he's talking with Robert.

[HairGrowsBack]

It's a little depressing because there's this popular narrative that a gay man can never be a 'true' badass - they're always cast as effeminate and flouncy and promiscuous, which is an irritating stereotype, especially since book!Loras is none of those things. He's flamboyant, yes, but no less than, say, Daario - who proves that flamboyant isn't an exclusively homosexual trait.

I'd have loved to see badass Loras, faithful to Renly and fierce in battle, but apparently the showrunners are incapable of writing a homosexual man who isn't some kind of cliche - see also: Renly talking about clothes when Margaery's undressing in front of him. Really? Actually Renly suffered from this a little too. In the books, he's described as eagerly participating in melees (I think) even though he's not especially good at it. In the show, he shies away from fighting entirely, at least when he's talking with Robert.

Not only that, but he's also afraid of blood :dunno:

In the books the person's looks is entirely irrelevant to their sexuality, and GRRM doesn't hesitate in having straight male characters being feminine, or straight female characters being masculine. The show obviously isn't willing to go there, that would be subverting clichés they are too fond of.

[SlowLoras]

Not only that, but he's also afraid of blood :dunno:

In the books the person's looks is entirely irrelevant to their sexuality, and GRRM doesn't hesitate in having straight male characters being feminine, or straight female characters being masculine. The show obviously isn't willing to go there, that would be subverting clichés they are too fond of.

Well, Alex Graves (director) referred to Brienne in one interview as a 'lesbian', despite all evidence to the contrary, so I'm getting that the showrunners aren't really thinking of LGBT characters beyond tired cliches - which is disappointing because GRRM is better than a lot of writers at illustrating LGBT characters as people. When you've got ostensibly straight warrior women like Arya and Brienne, ostensibly straight flamboyant men like Daario, and then on the other side of the coin men like Loras and Renly, who are homosexual but also strong, charismatic, manly - all the things the stereotypes suggest a gay man can't be - it's really disheartening for the show to disregard that and run with 'oh look, he's gay and promiscuous and those are his defining character traits, look at him eye-fucking all the other gay/bi men!'

(not that there's anything wrong with gay men being effeminate - but it's the dominant narrative put forth by most media, presumably to make gay men comical and less threatening? IDK, it's weird.)

[Rill Redthorn]

Well, Alex Graves (director) referred to Brienne in one interview as a 'lesbian', despite all evidence to the contrary,

Oh God, did he really? I didn't think my respect for Graves could get any lower after the "started out rape but became consensual" garbage, but that did it.

Seriously, Brienne is big and strong and likes to fight, so she must be a lesbian? WTEverlastingF? When she was all-out crushing on first Renly and then Jaime?

The UFC is trying to build a women's MMA slate and of the three top contenders, two are straight and one is a lesbian. They are all aggressive and kick butt, regardless of sexual orientation.

[Ser Tahu]

- cut -

Don't jump to conclusions, SlowLoras didn't provide a source. I'm calling you on this, SlowLoras, source please?

[The Drunkard]

http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/game-of-thrones-director-alex-graves-on-filming-joffreys-wedding/single-page

[Ser Tahu]

http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/game-of-thrones-director-alex-graves-on-filming-joffreys-wedding/single-page

Thanks. That is indeed a terrible misreading of the character.

[ens362]

Better on the show is Joffrey by a far margin in my opinion.

Gleason acted the fuck out of that role.

[SlowLoras]

http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/game-of-thrones-director-alex-graves-on-filming-joffreys-wedding/single-page

thanks for linking this. Should've done it the first time around tbh but was posting on mobile.

[Red Raven]

Better on the show is Joffrey by a far margin in my opinion.

Gleason acted the fuck out of that role.

Definitely. He needs an Emmy on his mantle.

From the Graves article:

And the scene with Jaime and Brienne in the bathtub is like you're shooting a film with a lesbian and a knight, she's a knight, he's a knight, they're in love and don't know they're in love; where else would you get to film a scene like that?

Huh? I can't even begin to translate this mess. If he thinks Brienne is a lesbian he's an even bigger idiot than I thought he was, which is quite an accomplishment.

[Konradsmith]

Jesus Christ. He said "like" not that she was. He obviously knows she isn't because he talks about Brienne's feelings for Jaime. Listen to him on the "And Now His Watch is Ended" commentary, he's by no means the prick you're all trying to make him out to be. He's a sensitive, actor-oriented director who you all seem to be forgetting directed "Kissed By Fire" which I thought was the holy grail on this forum. Cool your jets, Starksy. The mischaracterization of Alex Graves is the thing that has pissed me off most about the Sullied response of late. He was the darling last year and suddenly a few mischaracterized comments later and he's evil. He's the best director the show's had yet (though Michelle MacLaren is close competition after "Oathkeeper").

I'm going to sleep now though, so don't hit back on this comment too hard until I'm able to check back in and readily defend myself.

[Red Raven]

Konradsmith, I don't care who it is or what they had done before, if someone characterizes a rape scene as being consensual and "beautiful" as Graves did, they're a raging, creepy idiot. Even if he said "like a lesbian" it's still a profoundly stupid thing to say. She's romantically interested in guys and hasn't shown any interest in women, how is that "like a lesbian"? You're just butthurt because your darling director got called out for his shit.

[nicole_snow]

When I read the books, I felt Stannis was, although unlikeable, quite suitable to be a king. Sure, he had that weird Melisandre thing going on, but besides creepy war tactics it didn't seem like that would make him a bad ruler. He had a strong sense of justice, similar to Ned, and didn't seem caught up in the politics of King's Landing. His lack of personality made him look clearly at right vs wrong. I personally hated Stannis for killing Renly, but technically Stannis was correct in calling him a usurper.

Show Stannis is a snivelling worm that whines about not getting his rightful inheritance to the throne. He seems completely inept at ruling or leading an army. When he makes the comment to Davos about not having enough troops to "raid a pantry" it seemed so childish to me. The Stannis I came to know was much more dry and didn't take petty jabs at people. Maybe I just wasn't paying enough attention? Overall I think show Stannis is like a child that has been jealous of his brother's toy for the past decade and now wants his turn to play with it.

It wouldn't upset me so much except that I feel my non-reader friends are being cheated. It's easy to hate show Stannis, because he is a one dimensional villain.

The more we bleed each other, the weaker we shall all be when the real enemy falls upon us"

--would show Stannis ever say this?