Ser Desmond Wine's Bane Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 ^ Solid post. To me TV Dany has been 'flattened' since S01 as they pander to the 'Badass' marketing. I was frustrated at book Dany... but at least there was something to be frustrated about. TV Dany just jumps from one Bay moment to the next, and I just don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Fixit Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Why is that? Why do viewers like Dany more than readers? Because she isn't in Meereen yet? Plenty of time to hate her then. :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widows_Blood Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 ^ Solid post. To me TV Dany has been 'flattened' since S01 as they pander to the 'Badass' marketing. I was frustrated at book Dany... but at least there was something to be frustrated about. TV Dany just jumps from one Bay moment to the next, and I just don't care. And thats exactly what happens in the books. She goes from Astapor to Meereen in the span 4-5 chapters. Sometimes I wonder if people even read the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 HOW many times have they portrayed Dany as Jesus come again on the show? Its gotten really stale. And it looks like its going to happen again. And please remind me when i said anything about her future storyline As of now there isnt much to her. Except liberate everybody and be loved by the universe "on a pedestal" Never. Not once. They've portrayed her as a woman with dragons who likes to burn things, has just conquered two cities, one in a treacherous way, and is about to take her third in (from what the trailers show) a quite bloody way and will start her "moral decline." Think about the line she'll have soon. "They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one." Pretty sure every colonizing nation has said some equivalent of that before. If Dany is "Jesus" its because critics of her want her to be so they can criticize that, not because the show has portrayed her this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumble Bee Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I hate Daenerys both in the books and the tv show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Abominable SnowOther Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Never. Not once. They've portrayed her as a woman with dragons who likes to burn things, has just conquered two cities, one in a treacherous way, and is about to take her third in (from what the trailers show) a quite bloody way and will start her "moral decline." Think about the line she'll have soon. "They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one." Pretty sure every colonizing nation has said some equivalent of that before. If Dany is "Jesus" its because critics of her want her to be so they can criticize that, not because the show has portrayed her this way. That Jesus line really bit me in the ass *facepalm* But other than that she has not been portrayed as what you say, astute and attentive people will think like that, yes. But lets be honest GoT does not cater to those people. Essentially, imo, GoT is smut Tv (I love it) Now, i haven't said that she will keep being what they have portrayed her as, so far. I say that for the third time... Agree, with your other point. Shit may go down hill soon. I don't think I'm mistaken in thinking they may find a way to "whitwash" it, i use that term lightly. Perhaps, making her the victim, justifying her actions and maybe even her mistakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Even then, her positive portrayal will work to their favor when they being to show her darker sides. She's the only character this far in the novels who has still been relatively good, so the show has played to that effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTFSalami Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Lol so many haters jealous that Dany is the most popular character on the show. :lmao: But seriously, rolling my eyes at any "white-washing" claims. She massacred an entire ruling class on the show (through treachery, no less) and wasn't even shown establishing a government (a failure in the long-term in the books, but at least she DOES something). She locked her handmaiden in a vault. She burned a rape victim alive. She intimidated an envoy with her dragons (twice). And in the next episode, she'll crucify 163 Great Masters. Dany is easily the most morally-dubious hero on the show. There is certainly a problem with the way the show presents characters (a lack of nuance, particularly), and I agree that it extends to Daenerys, but she is not the worst example by a long-shot. The problem most people obviously have is that she is incredibly popular with show watchers. I agree that that is a problem... but for the opposite reason to most people: it reveals a lot about the audience, that a character is more popular to watch on TV than to read about. Why is that? Why do viewers like Dany more than readers? My biggest problem with the show's portrayal of Daenerys is the lack of subtlety and nuance, but that is mostly unavoidable (a defense I rarely give the show). When is Dany allowed to show emotion? She has hundreds of thousands of freed slaves following her. She's constantly surrounded by people who depend on her to be strong. In the books she only shows a softer side on her own or around Missandei. (Making Missandei older was evidently a HUGE mistake... I take it back, this problem most definitely could have been avoided.) The best example of the lack of subtlety in her character is, in my opinion, her exchange with Missandei before she "purchases" the Unsullied: "... You may be killed." "Valar Morghulis." "All men must die ... but not for a long while, we may pray" (book) "Valar Morghulis." "Yes, all men must die ... but we are not men" (show) One is a weak attempt at badassery (and kinda stupid), and one is thoughtful and cautious, but still brave. Ultimately Dany's character in the show is far weaker than in the books - like pretty much every character in Game of Thrones (unlike what appears to be most readers, I don't think any character has been improved upon their book counterpart). But I certainly don't think she's been white-washed (I think she seems a bit more callous in the show, actually), and I don't think the lack of subtlety in her character is any worse than the other characters - Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, Bran, Cat and Jon all suffer(ed) more than Daenerys IMO. Actually, we've gone past the point where her biggest fuck ups take place: Astapor and Yunkai. She leaves Astapor defenseless and unstable. She leaves Yunkai with the Wise Masters still in power. She arrives at Meereen with a trail of freed slaves who are completely dependent on her. Those are her main failures. In Meereen she works to avoid those failures again, but fails mostly due to her actions in Astapor and Yunkai. Had she left Astapor stable with a strong military force, and had she deposed the Wise Masters and replaced them with a stable government and a strong military force, she would have been in a much stronger position in Meereen. She would have had allies against Qarth and Volantis, for example. But most importantly, she would not have been faced with an immediate siege by the Yunkai'i, which would allow her to deal effectively with the rebellious Great Masters in Meereen, rather than simply working with them. (I agree with your general point, BTW, so I'm sorry for arguing with you haha - I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, just trying to clarify a point I think is often missed by readers. But of course, in narrative terms, the revelation that she's "fucked up" can only come after she's settled in Meereen. But I still maintain that most of her failures are BEFORE Meereen; the failures she faces in Meereen are mostly just the result of what she did before.) Yes, those ARE her main failures. But we're still not to the point in her story where those things catch up to her. There's no doubt in my mind that her actions in Astapor and Yunkai will appropriately bite her in the ass this season, but we're not there yet. The impatience of people who already know how this story goes never ceases to amaze me. Just wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Abominable SnowOther Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 @LSPerhaps! ...i hope so, Tv! Dany is cool. But if they bring her down a little and make us use our brains to understand whats really going on around her, itll make for great television. Everything is there in the novels to make it possible hopefully, they can deliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joachim Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 We're privy to book Dany's thoughts. That's only possible in film/television if you do that lame ass David Lynch/Dune/voiceover thing, which is... well, lame. :P "I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer, the little death." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie Coogan Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 You haven't explained to me why Danaerys is more sympathetic, but rather why she is selfish and cruel. She had her reasons, they just aren't very sympathetic when you step back and look at things from any other perspective besides Danaerys's. Khal Drogo and his army inflicted Holocaust levels of cruelty on Mirri and her village. What Danaerys did does not change that. Yet, Mirri none the less treats Khal Drogo's wound and gives him advice on how to heal. An incredible act of kindness and commitment to her equivalent of the Hippocratic oath. Khal Drogo ignores her advice and gets what I believe is sepsis. To be specific, Drogo removes her poultice and replaces it with one of mud (not healthy) and drinks milk of the poppy and alcohol which Mirri specifically said to avoid. When the disease is revealed, Mirri gets the blame. One of Drogo's blood riders promises to have her ganged raped before leaving her to be eaten by weasels for killing Drogo. Only Danaerys's orders stops him, and he promises to carry out his sentence once Drogo is dead and Danaerys no longer has any authority because without a khal she is no khaleesi. In essence, Mirri is as a dead as Drogo, the only question is time. Under these situations, Danaerys asks Mirri if there is a spell, and Mirri says there is, but only death can pay for life. Danaerys asks only one question, "mine?" When told no, she orders Mirri to cast the spell. Mirri does so. And be honest, there are no good options for her at this point. Think about this, Danaerys just ordered the death of... somebody. She knows it won't be Drogo and it won't be her. It could have been some innocent 2 year old. As it was, the life taken was her own unborn child. She does have another option, let Drogo die. Take those she can trust and whatever wealth she can get a hold of, and ride away. Did Mirri betray Danaerys? I don't think so. She is certainly not responsible for Khal Drogo's downfall, and actively tried to prevent it. She did not tell Danaerys WHO would be the death to pay for Khal Drogo's life, but Danaerys did not ask either. Mirri even told Danaerys that "death would be cleaner." Everything bad that happens in Danaerys's last few chapters are because Khal Drogo can't stand an itchy poultice and Danaerys will go to any measure to save one of the greatest war criminals of his generation. I am not going to say Danaerys is a villain, because clearly her crusade to end slavery is with merit, albeit with loads of unintended consequences. However, she is certainly a greyer character than I think a lot of book readers realize. One man's hero is another man's murderous destabilization agent. mirri maz dur has no equivant to the Hippocratic oath, there is no mencion of such in the books... and it would be wrong to asume that she does, becuase cultures construct the world in diffrent ways...witch is instrumental to what instituciones and myths they create... the Hippocratic oath is from our world not martin´s... About Drogo and Mirri the book is ambiguas aboat Mirri´s intentciones when she cures him... later on it´s says that he tore the puoltice off becuase it "itched and burned". It could have been Drogo´s fault... it also could have been that the poultice wasn´t healing him at all it was making him worst... if this is true it´s posible that Mirri was planing on killing Rhergo from the start... Later on when dany questiones her aboat what happen to Rhego and Drogo she seems proud and basically admits to knowing before hand what befell Rhego ... Dany gestured at Ser Jorah and the others. "Leave us. I would speak with this maegi alone." Mormont and the Dothraki withdrew. "You knew," Dany said when they were gone. She ached, inside and out, but her fury gave her strength. "You knew what I was buying, and you knew the price, and yet you let me pay it." "It was wrong of them to burn my temple," the heavy, flat-nosed woman said placidly. "That angered the Great Shepherd." "This was no god's work," Dany said coldly. If I look back I am lost. "You cheated me. You murdered my child within me." "The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust." "I spoke for you," she said, anguished. "I saved you." "Saved me?" The Lhazareen woman spat. "Three riders had taken me, not as a man takes a woman but from behind, as a dog takes a bitch. The fourth was in me when you rode past. How then did you save me? I saw my god's house burn, where I had healed good men beyond counting. My home they burned as well, and in the street I saw piles of heads. I saw the head of a baker who made my bread. I saw the head of a boy I had saved from deadeye fever, only three moons past. I heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips. Tell me again what you saved." "Your life." It´s pretty clear form that text from that text that mirri knew what was gonna happen.... Just to make this clear I´m not suporting dany´s (you can really see how self-rightous she in this quote) acciones or Drogo´s ( who is a mass murder)... but Mirri isn´t as innocent as you make her look... I do agree with you that dany is grey charecter, like all the other charecters in a song of ice and fire Jon: Has the desire to be hero, yet can´t help but sucumb to his personal desires Eddard Stark: Tries always to the honorble thing but dies stupidly leaving his family in dire situacion Jaime lanister: Saved millons when he killed king Aerys but pushed a kid out a window.... the list goes on... anybody that sees this charecters as black and white or good and evil should go back to reading Tolkien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys Targaryen's slave Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 I'm glad Dany's baby was killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 I'm glad Dany's baby was killed. See below Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady of the Falls Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 I think Dany rocks I love her character in book & series if she becomes Queen of the 7 kingdoms she'll be just, fair,and giving. Now Sansa she makes me nuts IMHO shes one dementional, and that's in fairy tale land. And selling out her own family more than once, she knew who Joffrey was when she saw how he treated the butchers kid, lied about it. Even how he treated her. Totally out for herself thirsty to be queen. But of course it all in the eye of the beholder. People like/dislike who they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys Targaryen's slave Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 See below What about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Arianne Martell Posted April 24, 2014 Author Share Posted April 24, 2014 I think Dany rocks I love her character in book & series if she becomes Queen of the 7 kingdoms she'll be just, fair,and giving. Now Sansa she makes me nuts IMHO shes one dementional, and that's in fairy tale land. And selling out her own family more than once, she knew who Joffrey was when she saw how he treated the butchers kid, lied about it. Even how he treated her. Totally out for herself thirsty to be queen. But of course it all in the eye of the beholder. People like/dislike who they do. :dunno: :dunno: :dunno: Also, have you not seen how she's improved after she left King's Landing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 What about it? Look's like you've found yourself a keyboard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys Targaryen's slave Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Look's like you've found yourself a keyboard Highly offensive. Don't ever speak to me again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Highly offensive. Don't ever speak to me again. What a loss... especially when you spoke about taking glee in the death of infants. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbossa Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 I honestly don't understand this obsession some of you have, that all characters need to have some massive dent in their armour to be " entertaining". Dany in the show is just fine, she is the mother of dragons she is suppose to be this bad ass character that kicks everyone's ass. Her drama should be centred around her Dragons, and GRRM and the writers are doing exactly that( dragons acting like 15 year old children and so on). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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