[Show and Book SPOILERS] I don't understand [scene with Cersei and Jaime]

[Carey Snow]

Because "Stop it" has such a different connotation than "No."

Way to go.

Agreed, the show is clearly rape. She says stop it the entire time.

[rocksniffer]

My mind wandered to a passage from HST:s Hells Angels:

Why wasn't it problematic for Sansa being "almost raped" in the riot? Or Brienne?

And on to a different, but to me equally disturbing trend, why isn't anyone upset by Ramsay hunting a girl with dogs? Is it OK because he had a female side-kick?

or ok that he is cutting off bits of theon and eating dick shaped sausages...

I'm a bit curious. Would you say Jaime was raping/sexually assaulting Cersei in winterfell too? Because Jaime is pretty much all over her despite telling him to stop. Starting to think this is just another aspect of their fucked up relationship.

in winterfell it is my recollection that she didn't say stop until she saw bran and jamie didn't...though it was all him tossing kid to his supposed death out the window. something that i find even more reprehensible, sorry ladies you know i love y'all

and i must add that the show and the books (all of which, i have read repeatedly over the years) are both meant to stand alone. everyone that finds themselves upset by the changes must never have enjoyed a film adaptation of a novel or story...and personally i find that hard to believe...

as for rape, my response is this, yes if a women says no a MAN should stop...period...in the real world, but in this circumstance...a fictional world full of incest and child abuse, etc...my oldest niece (aged 51) summed it up for me when she observed that she couldn't hardly call that rape because any grown woman should be able to get away from a one handed man trying to reach inside his multi-layered armor, undo his drawers and get his shit out, lift up yards of dress and find a hole in the dark...

...nuff said... :smoking:

[Swagwell]

Can we all at least agree that banging your sister beside your dead incest bastards body is wrong?

[Rill Redthorn]

as for rape, my response is this, yes if a women says no a MAN should stop...period...in the real world, but in this circumstance...a fictional world full of incest and child abuse, etc...my oldest niece (aged 51) summed it up for me when she observed that she couldn't hardly call that rape because any grown woman should be able to get away from a one handed man trying to reach inside his multi-layered armor, undo his drawers and get his shit out, lift up yards of dress and find a hole in the dark...

You're actually getting closer to the other part of my peeve with this scene. In addition to making Jaime a rapist, they made Cersei a wuss. Book Cersei was crazy and and evil and not nearly as smart as she thought she was, but she was no one's wuss. If book-Jaime had tried that crap, book-Cersei would have slammed his unhealed stump hard and put a knee in his nuts and left him groaning on the floor. Jaime is the powerless one in that scene in the book -- begging Cersei to love him, to marry him even -- and Cersei's the one in charge.

Yet on the show, Cersei is suddenly a victim. Why? They've already stripped Cersei of so much of her agency by making her nicer. Instead of deciding "Hell no, I won't give Robert any kids!" and aborting his kid (not nice, but powerful!) she bears him a son who dies in infancy instead, because that's nicer and it makes it look like she actually tried to be a good wife to him and he didn't appreciate it.

Book-Cersei was a nasty piece of work but she had agency. She made her own choices and acted on them -- to the detriment of all Westeros, yes, but at least she wasn't passive and helpless.

Show Cersei is a weakling, and that's all wrong.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Just today I told a friend that everything was out of control already and people was criticising Jaime while apparently forgetting that Jaime told Brienne that in case of rape, she shouldn't fight and think on Renly.

It's Jaime and Cersei, brother and sister. They fucked next to a drunk Robert, probably in his own bed. They don't care for morals nor others' feelings. I'm sure it's not the first time they have done anything like it. To each their own, every couple knows how they work in bed. Or in their son's graves.

[rocksniffer]

Can we all at least agree that banging your sister beside your dead incest bastards body is wrong?

compared to what...in the GoT world that is relatively benign activity....

Back when?

When there were dragons and magic and white walkers?

exactly to hold a fictitious world where those things are present to a modern civilized world is absurd...

...of course these thoughts are just the opinions of this old asshole, feel free to disagree... :smoking:

[Swagwell]

compared to what...in the GoT world that is relatively benign activity....

Lets just say its on the same level as raping a woman under the swinging corpse of her husband, even if you send some livestock for the bastard later on...

I read someone saying that when Tyrion is whoring later on and throws up all over the whore that it is somehow rape. I disagree, it is disgusting and morally despicable, but not rape in any shape or form.

In this particular scene, my problem isn't really whether it is consensual or not, the incest in a church next to your childs corpse kinda trumps that.

But maybe im a prude.

[Moët]

Because "Stop it" has such a different connotation than "No."

Way to go.

She says "Not here" and "it's not right" because of where they are, just like in the books. Her body and her actions never say no. Grabbing Jamie to pull him towards her, passionately kissing him back before they're ever all the way on the floor, and finally wrapping her legs around him, all have zero to do with "no" and everything to do with "yes."

"Not here" = "I don't want to have sex HERE" ≠ "I don't want to have sex at all."

Her actions in the scene clearly make her a consenting adult.

If people have to rewatch the scene with the sound off in order to concentrate on Cersei's actions, then they should do so.

[Rill Redthorn]

I read someone saying that when Tyrion is whoring later on and throws up all over the whore that it is somehow rape. I disagree, it is disgusting and morally despicable, but not rape in any shape or form.

In this particular scene, my problem isn't really whether it is consensual or not, the incest in a church next to your childs corpse kinda trumps that.

Tyrion definitely raped that whore. She was repulsed by him, and he knew it, and he forced her anyway. Tyrion had always been kind to whores before that and preferred the ones at least willing to pretend they were enjoying him. He was violating his own moral code there and he knew it.

And I don't get how consensual sex can ever be worse than rape. That's not how my morality-o-meter is calibrated.

[Moët]

or ok that he is cutting off bits of theon and eating dick shaped sausages...

in winterfell it is my recollection that she didn't say stop until she saw bran and jamie didn't...though it was all him tossing kid to his supposed death out the window. something that i find even more reprehensible, sorry ladies you know i love y'all

and i must add that the show and the books (all of which, i have read repeatedly over the years) are both meant to stand alone. everyone that finds themselves upset by the changes must never have enjoyed a film adaptation of a novel or story...and personally i find that hard to believe...

as for rape, my response is this, yes if a women says no a MAN should stop...period...in the real world, but in this circumstance...a fictional world full of incest and child abuse, etc...my oldest niece (aged 51) summed it up for me when she observed that she couldn't hardly call that rape because any grown woman should be able to get away from a one handed man trying to reach inside his multi-layered armor, undo his drawers and get his shit out, lift up yards of dress and find a hole in the dark...

...nuff said... :smoking:

Totally agree with your niece. And especially regarding Cersei Lannister. I don't think the strongest woman in all the Seven Kingdoms would put up with allowing Jamie to rape her for even a microsecond.

[Moët]

Tyrion definitely raped that whore. She was repulsed by him, and he knew it, and he forced her anyway. Tyrion had always been kind to whores before that and preferred the ones at least willing to pretend they were enjoying him. He was violating his own moral code there and he knew it.

And I don't get how consensual sex can ever be worse than rape. That's not how my morality-o-meter is calibrated.

Can you rape a whore if she's taking your money and voluntarily doing her job? If she refuses your money, and her services to you, and you still fuck her against her will, that's not only rape, but theft.

I don't remember, is that what happened?

[Fat Trell]

She says "Not here" and "it's not right" because of where they are, just like in the books. Her body and her actions never say no. Grabbing Jamie to pull him towards her, passionately kissing him back before they're ever all the way on the floor, and finally wrapping her legs around him, all have zero to do with "no" and everything to do with "yes."

"Not here" = "I don't want to have sex HERE" ≠ "I don't want to have sex at all."

Her actions in the scene clearly make her a consenting adult.

If people have to rewatch the scene with the sound off in order to concentrate on Cersei's actions, then they should do so.

Upon re-watching the scene, she did participate more actively than I had previously thought. However, she never ceases telling Jaime to "Stop it." And all her pulling him towards her is countered by almost simultaneous pushing away. Its grayer than I had thought. But it isn't gray at all(imo) in the books, and it really jades Jaime's character.

Ultimately it was probably just a cheap move to get some more audience sympathy from Cersei as she embarks on the battle for Tommen against Tywin and later the Tyrells.

[mafalda]

Stop whinging. Stop watching the show.

Everytime it's on, google what chapters it is covering and read them instead.

Just stop whinging though please.

You can always not read the whining.

[Rill Redthorn]

Can you rape a whore if she's taking your money and voluntarily doing her job? If she refuses your money, and her services to you, and you still fuck her against her will, that's not only rape, but theft.

I don't remember, is that what happened?

She was a slave girl forced into prostitution. She got no money from it and had no choice. Tyrion knew this but forced her anyway. It was rape.

[Swagwell]

1: Tyrion definitely raped that whore. She was repulsed by him, and he knew it, and he forced her anyway. Tyrion had always been kind to whores before that and preferred the ones at least willing to pretend they were enjoying him. He was violating his own moral code there and he knew it.

2:And I don't get how consensual sex can ever be worse than rape. That's not how my morality-o-meter is calibrated.

1:She is a whore. Very sad yes, but it is kinda in her "work description" if you will, to have sex with people even though she is repulsed by them, that's why she can charge money for it.

2:I'm just saying that incest is also very wrong. So is banging in a church next to a dead devilspawn born of that very same incest. Without the reunion angle that was in the book the whole scene changes and becomes more predatory, but to me it is basically the same disgusting act.

[Rill Redthorn]

1:She is a whore. Very sad yes, but it is kinda in her "work description" if you will, to have sex with people even though she is repulsed by them, that's why she can charge money for it.

2:I'm just saying that incest is also very wrong. So is banging in a church next to a dead devilspawn born of that very same incest. Without the reunion angle that was in the book the whole scene changes and becomes more predatory, but to me it is basically the same disgusting act.

1. She is a slave. She's not getting any money from it and has no choice. (Well, except to die. I suppose that's a choice but it's not much of one.) Tyrion is fully aware of this.

2. Rape is worse than incest. Rape is worse than desecrating a corpse. Rape is worse than committing incest while desecrating a corpse.

[Rockroi]

A woman can reject sex because of the location.

A woman can reject sex because she does not like the way the man looks.

A woman can reject sex because she is menstruating.

A woman can reject sex because its Thursday.

A woman can reject sex because its too hot.

A woman can reject sex because she doesn't feel like it,

A woman can reject sex because she just watched an episode of Welcome Back Kotter while looking at blueprints for a death laser while eating pistachio nuts out of the hollowed-out skull of Ghengis Khan.

NONE of these things change the fact that she can say 'no; and the event should stop. Immediately. And to move beyond that is rape.

Look, I can think up a whole bunch of reasons why the scene's execution can insinuate consensual sex (she brought her legs up, she kissed back, she held him; the fact that Cersei and Jaime have had sex many many many times and maybe many many many times Cersei has said 'no' and never meant it; etc etc etc), but they would have to be balanced against the fact that she said 'no' for what appeared top be 296 times or so; she pushed him away and didn't ever seem like she wanted to have sex... in a church... over the corpse of her recently murdered son.

That's really not the point.

The point is that the show screwed the scene up (give them credit- they have far far far far more hits than misses). They should have put in more cues that would give us an indication that it was consensual (as it was clearly in the book). The show should have taken the time to understand the scene instead of just plowing through it (pun... intended) But it exemplified a major concern insofar as ... had the jackasses just read the book (something us book readers are chided for asking others to do) they would have had better grounding and more info to avoid this problem.

And it is a problem. For one, they pulled the rug out from under Jaime's well-earned and well done redemption arc; they made the entire episode about rape (because that ALWAYS helps, right Tosh?); they gave "haters" ammo they wanted to decry the show and they will likely fall asunder HBO who may have to take a closer look at future episodes to make sure they don't run afoul of the "Outrage Police." (and yeah, they made Cersei more sympathetic).

They submitted a sloppy, poorly executed scene and made a problem where there didn't need to be one. I mean, frankly, when you run close to the SUBJECT of rape, you really should be careful and be very certain you are not making a scene that looks and seems a lot like rape.

The show screwed this one up, not the people reacting. And they can't fix it.

Be careful next time.

[Chebyshov]

A woman can reject sex because of the location.

A woman can reject sex because she does not like the way the man looks.

A woman can reject sex because she is menstruating.

A woman can reject sex because its Thursday.

A woman can reject sex because its too hot.

A woman can reject sex because she doesn't feel like it,

A woman can reject sex because she just watched an episode of Welcome Back Kotter while looking at blueprints for a death laser while eating pistachio nuts out of the hollowed-out skull of Ghengis Khan.

NONE of these things change the fact that she can say 'no; and the event should stop. Immediately. And to move beyond that is rape.

Agreed 100%. Which is why it makes me concerned when people view the scene in the show as so drastically different than the books. She says "no" in both cases. The tone is different, darker in the show given that Jaime is lashing out in anger, but I'd hardly call it a ruining of his redemption arc. Mostly because I think his redemption arc is a myth.

[teemo]

What is the big controversy? The director fucked up. GRRM has said that it's consensual in the book, so you can't try to say, "oh but it wasn't consensual in the book either" and GRRM had nothing to do with the show scene and refers to the "butterfly effect" again. The director says it was meant to come off as consensual at the end, but if it was that clear cut there wouldn't be so much controversy...therefore, the director screwed up. Wow, something was poorly executed in the show. Big surprise there!

Come on, people, it was consensual in the books. GRRM said it - is that not enough for you?

[Swagwell]

1. She is a slave. She's not getting any money from it and has no choice. (Well, except to die. I suppose that's a choice but it's not much of one.) Tyrion is fully aware of this.

2. Rape is worse than incest. Rape is worse than desecrating a corpse. Rape is worse than committing incest while desecrating a corpse.

1:Hmmm. Didn't really remember that from the book. Dark Tyrion is a bad person, in the nowadays world he would probably be dressed in Nike clothes made by child laborers, munch down on Dole bananas and endangered species - burgers, wear conflict diamond bling and buy sex from trafficking victims.

2: Is raping a corpse worse than rape or better?