Is Ned's mother a commoner?

[The Sleeper]

She was a Dustin.

[unSonofStannis]

She was a Dustin.

What evidence do you have?

[HexMachina]

I don't think she could be a commoner, the Starks being a Great House and all. I believe GRRM said something like "you guys think about this stuff too fucking much" (lol) in response to someone asking him who Eddard's mother was. So I guess either it isn't important or GRRM intends to keep the importance of this revelation secret.

I've heard somewhere that she was a Flint, maybe someone could confirm/deny that.

Someone asked GRRM who Neds Mother was and what happened to her:

"Lady Stark. She died."

We dont know who she is or what house she is from. The World of Ice and Fire may shed some light on this

[unSonofStannis]

Someone asked GRRM who Neds Mother was and what happened to her:

"Lady Stark. She died."

We dont know who she is or what house she is from. The World of Ice and Fire may shed some light on this

The World of Ice and Fire will answer alot of questions which might lead to this forum becoming obsolete :laugh:

[The Sleeper]

What evidence do you have?

Process of elimination mostly. It is obvious that Robb did not have any close cousins during the campaign, or it would need to be mentioned. On the other hand, we know that Ned's grandmother was a Flint which makes most likely that she would have married into a Northern house. The only prominent Northern house without any male members or heirs at the beginning of the series is house Dustin.

There several other facts that point in the same direction. Barbrey Dustin's situation is identical to Lady Hornwood's, that is without heirs and no blood claim to the lands she holds, yet it remains seemingly unresolved for fifteen years. The solution would be that it is already resolved and that upon her death Barrow on would go to the Starks. There is also the close relationship between the late lord Dustin and Ned. It would make sense if they were cousins. Lady Dustin's bitterness would make more sense in this case, Ned bringing his sister's bones home but leaving his cousin's in Dorne. Lady Dustin's father's wish to marry her to a Stark would lead him to consider a Stark cousin the next best thing, Brandon being fostered in Barrow on, Bran being told he would be bannerman to Robb despite being a second son.

It seems to me the opoption that makes the most sense.

[unSonofStannis]

Process of elimination mostly. It is obvious that Robb did not have any close cousins during the campaign, or it would need to be mentioned. On the other hand, we know that Ned's grandmother was a Flint which makes most likely that she would have married into a Northern house. The only prominent Northern house without any male members or heirs at the beginning of the series is house Dustin.

There several other facts that point in the same direction. Barbrey Dustin's situation is identical to Lady Hornwood's, that is without heirs and no blood claim to the lands she holds, yet it remains seemingly unresolved for fifteen years. The solution would be that it is already resolved and that upon her death Barrow on would go to the Starks. There is also the close relationship between the late lord Dustin and Ned. It would make sense if they were cousins. Lady Dustin's bitterness would make more sense in this case, Ned bringing his sister's bones home but leaving his cousin's in Dorne. Lady Dustin's father's wish to marry her to a Stark would lead him to consider a Stark cousin the next best thing, Brandon being fostered in Barrow on, Bran being told he would be bannerman to Robb despite being a second son.

It seems to me the opoption that makes the most sense.

Makes sense the Dustins wouldve been powerful since they ruled a town but you also have to take into consideration of Rickard having southron ambitions and there was a Skagos rebellion so maybe Rickard married a Skagosi lords daughter to mend fences and heal wounds.

[Mithras]

I have a theory that Ned's mother is the pregnant woman in Bran's vision and she is at the same time the daughter of Jenny of Oldstones (who is actually a Flint of the Mountains) and Duncan Targaryen. Oh by the way, Jenny is also a descendant of Raymun Redbeard in the female line.

[The Sleeper]

Makes sense the Dustins wouldve been powerful since they ruled a town but you also have to take into consideration of Rickard having southron ambitions and there was a Skagos rebellion so maybe Rickard married a Skagosi lords daughter to mend fences and heal wounds.

The Skaagosi rebellion was quite a bit before Rickard's time and the southron ambitions refers to the Tully marriage' not Rickard's, nor does a Skaagosi bride fit with them.

The idea that she was from Skaagos stems from Rickon's inferred presence there, but we don't know how he wound up there. Otherwise a Stark marrying a Skaagosi is a bare step up from marrying a wildling.

[unSonofStannis]

The Skaagosi rebellion was quite a bit before Rickard's time and the southron ambitions refers to the Tully marriage' not Rickard's, nor does a Skaagosi bride fit with them.

The idea that she was from Skaagos stems from Rickon's inferred presence there, but we don't know how he wound up there. Otherwise a Stark marrying a Skaagosi is a bare step up from marrying a wildling.

It wasnt that far back only about 80-100 years ago, and I know the Skaagosi are a step up from wildlings but they still are apart of the North and are technically Northmen so they are a marriage option albeit a poor one and also you could say the clansmen are a bare step up from the wildlings too but the Starks have married them.

[The Sleeper]

It wasnt that far back only about 80-100 years ago, and I know the Skaagosi are a step up from wildlings but they still are apart of the North and are technically Northmen so they are a marriage option albeit a poor one and also you could say the clansmen are a bare step up from the wildlings too but the Starks have married them.

It was a century, but even eighty years leaves small margin for Rickard to be born let alone being a prospective groom.

There is also no instance of a clansman being married to a Stark. It was Ned's maternal grandmother that was a Flint so unless the Starks practiced incest that is quite impossible. There are also two branches of house Flint that are proper lords and they are considered cadet branches of the mountain Flints, so I would think that their prestige is much greater than Skaagosi, who we are told stand apart and are liked little.

[Veltigar]

Process of elimination mostly. It is obvious that Robb did not have any close cousins during the campaign, or it would need to be mentioned. On the other hand, we know that Ned's grandmother was a Flint which makes most likely that she would have married into a Northern house. The only prominent Northern house without any male members or heirs at the beginning of the series is house Dustin.

There several other facts that point in the same direction. Barbrey Dustin's situation is identical to Lady Hornwood's, that is without heirs and no blood claim to the lands she holds, yet it remains seemingly unresolved for fifteen years. The solution would be that it is already resolved and that upon her death Barrow on would go to the Starks. There is also the close relationship between the late lord Dustin and Ned. It would make sense if they were cousins. Lady Dustin's bitterness would make more sense in this case, Ned bringing his sister's bones home but leaving his cousin's in Dorne. Lady Dustin's father's wish to marry her to a Stark would lead him to consider a Stark cousin the next best thing, Brandon being fostered in Barrow on, Bran being told he would be bannerman to Robb despite being a second son.

It seems to me the opoption that makes the most sense.

Hmmm, you make a solid case. It's either this or a Skagosi I'd say. I still think that it's Skagosi, because that would have greater possible ramifications in tWoW imo. But I wouldn't be surprised if she were to turn out to be a Dustin.

[TheCrannogDweller]

I have a theory that Ned's mother is the pregnant woman in Bran's vision and she is at the same time the daughter of Jenny of Oldstones (who is actually a Flint of the Mountains) and Duncan Targaryen. Oh by the way, Jenny is also a descendant of Raymun Redbeard in the female line.

I've seen the Oldstones=Flint argument running around the board (and I don't buy it) but how did you come up with the Redbeard connection? I think it is far more likely that she was a descendant of House Mudd.

Hmmm, you make a solid case. It's either this or a Skagosi I'd say. I still think that it's Skagosi, because that would have greater possible ramifications in tWoW imo. But I wouldn't be surprised if she were to turn out to be a Dustin.

Or a Royce. If Rickard's aunt married a Royce, it's not inconceivable that Rickard himself might've traveled to the Vale and picked a bride from there.

[HexMachina]

Process of elimination mostly. It is obvious that Robb did not have any close cousins during the campaign, or it would need to be mentioned. On the other hand, we know that Ned's grandmother was a Flint which makes most likely that she would have married into a Northern house. The only prominent Northern house without any male members or heirs at the beginning of the series is house Dustin.

There several other facts that point in the same direction. Barbrey Dustin's situation is identical to Lady Hornwood's, that is without heirs and no blood claim to the lands she holds, yet it remains seemingly unresolved for fifteen years. The solution would be that it is already resolved and that upon her death Barrow on would go to the Starks. There is also the close relationship between the late lord Dustin and Ned. It would make sense if they were cousins. Lady Dustin's bitterness would make more sense in this case, Ned bringing his sister's bones home but leaving his cousin's in Dorne. Lady Dustin's father's wish to marry her to a Stark would lead him to consider a Stark cousin the next best thing, Brandon being fostered in Barrow on, Bran being told he would be bannerman to Robb despite being a second son.

It seems to me the opoption that makes the most sense.

Its probably just because I am tired, but I dont understand the part about Neds grandmother being a Flint, so she must have married into a Northern House. She wouldn't marry into any House if she had become Lady Stark would she? I'm probably just being incredibly dense here and misreading

[TheCrannogDweller]

Its probably just because I am tired, but I dont understand the part about Neds grandmother being a Flint, so she must have married into a Northern House. She wouldn't marry into any House if she had become Lady Stark would she? I'm probably just being incredibly dense here and misreading

It's the other grandmother.

Basically, we know that Ned's father's father was Lord Stark (Edwyle) - we don't know who his wife was.

We also know that Ned's mother's mother was a Flint - but we don't know who her husband was.

Here, look at the family tree in Rickard's page.

[Veltigar]

I've seen the Oldstones=Flint argument running around the board (and I don't buy it) but how did you come up with the Redbeard connection? I think it is far more likely that she was a descendant of House Mudd.

I agree. The flint argument is just a desperate attempt to connect the Targaryens to the North somehow.

Or a Royce. If Rickard's aunt married a Royce, it's not inconceivable that Rickard himself might've traveled to the Vale and picked a bride from there.

I think that after the troubles the North had gone through, a Northern bride for Rickard would be necessary to create a bit more unification. I think the marriage was succesful and he got the North back where he wanted it, and then he could do with his children as he pleased.

[HexMachina]

Hmmm, you make a solid case. It's either this or a Skagosi I'd say. I still think that it's Skagosi, because that would have greater possible ramifications in tWoW imo. But I wouldn't be surprised if she were to turn out to be a Dustin.

Ah, I see now, thank you. It was just me misreading and being slow :p

[TheCrannogDweller]

I think that after the troubles the North had gone through, a Northern bride for Rickard would be necessary to create a bit more unification. I think the marriage was succesful and he got the North back where he wanted it, and then he could do with his children as he pleased.

Sorry, I just realized that was a brainfart on my part. Rickard married the daughter of the Flint woman. We don't know who her father was, but it was probably a northerner.

Edwyle might've married a Royce though.

[The Sleeper]

Its probably just because I am tired, but I dont understand the part about Neds grandmother being a Flint, so she must have married into a Northern House. She wouldn't marry into any House if she had become Lady Stark would she? I'm probably just being incredibly dense here and misreading

Emmm. We are told that Ned's maternal grandmother was a Flint of the mountains, presumably by birth, so she would be more likely to have married inside the Northrrather than, say, the River lands, since the First Flints are an if ancient, somewhat obscure house outside the North. Ned's paternal grandmother would be a lady Stark by marriage.

[Mithras]

I've seen the Oldstones=Flint argument running around the board (and I don't buy it) but how did you come up with the Redbeard connection?

“When Maelys the Monstrous died upon the Stepstones, it was the end of the male line of House Blackfyre.”

No mention of the female line.

“Raymund Redbeard and his sons died at Long Lake,”

No mention of the daughters. Given the resemblance of the wildlings and mountain clans, I think surviving daughters might be married to clan chiefs.

Although Jon thinks that the wildlings do not give three figs to bloodlines, I think there is more to it. The wildlings know the bloodline of Raymun's little brother Red Raven (who fled the battle field) too damn well. They all know that Gerrick Kingsblood descended from Red Raven. There is this weird respect of the wildlings to Starks which maybe due to the fact that they carry the blood of Raymun. There is also this weird claim of Ygritte about being kin with Jon and telling him the tale of Bael the Bard (maybe she was judging whether he is aware of carrying Raymun's blood, and note that she is kissed by fire just like Raymun). There is also this strange scene where Wun Wun and the wildlings with him at the sacred grove trusted Jon's word after he reminded that he is a son of Eddard Stark.

The laws of Westeros dictate that Gerrick should be the heir of Raymun because little brother comes before any daughter. However, Tormund rejects the idea and the wildlings surely prefer the brave daughter(s) captured on the battlefield over the craven brother.

[Mrs_Darcy]

“When Maelys the Monstrous died upon the Stepstones, it was the end of the male line of House Blackfyre.”

No mention of the female line.

“Raymund Redbeard and his sons died at Long Lake,”

No mention of the daughters. Given the resemblance of the wildlings and mountain clans, I think surviving daughters might be married to clan chiefs.

Although Jon thinks that the wildlings do not give three figs to bloodlines, I think there is more to it. The wildlings know the bloodline of Raymun's little brother Red Raven (who fled the battle field) too damn well. They all know that Gerrick Kingsblood descended from Red Raven. There is this weird respect of the wildlings to Starks which maybe due to the fact that they carry the blood of Raymun. There is also this weird claim of Ygritte about being kin with Jon and telling him the tale of Bael the Bard (maybe she was judging whether he is aware of carrying Raymun's blood, and note that she is kissed by fire just like Raymun). There is also this strange scene where Wun Wun and the wildlings with him at the sacred grove trusted Jon's word after he reminded that he is a son of Eddard Stark.

The laws of Westeros dictate that Gerrick should be the heir of Raymun because little brother comes before any daughter. However, Tormund rejects the idea and the wildlings surely prefer the brave daughter(s) captured on the battlefield over the craven brother.

Actually, the opposite is true. Take for instance the Lannister succession: After Tywin is killed his daughter Cersei and not his younger brother Kevan inherits Casterly Rock, which Kevan openly acknowledges.

ETA: Since those are the rules of Andal succession, the wildlings may have different rules, but we haver never heard about them being different.