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What if Joffrey was raised by someone else


Kaguya

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It's offensive to say that psycopathy =\= evil especially when there are plenty of psychopaths that don't commit any crimes and plenty of the worlds biggest mass murderers weren't even psychopaths, for example I wouldn't consider Hitler a psychopath clinically.


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It would depend on if he is just a product of a dysfunctional childhood, he had no positive male role model & definite momma issues, however Tommen & Myrcella are doing pretty well so he probably is a sociopath.

If he was, no amount of alternative parenting or intervention would have helped. Sociopaths are usually extremely clever & actually learn from therapy - there is no cure. They seem to have no emotions apart from a sense of being superior to others. Having said that - not all sociopaths are serial killers, Psychologists believe that without them we may never have evolved past the hunter gatherer stage in human history & they are a necessary part of our cultural & societal development.

To see a difference compare him to say Cersei - her behaviour is cruel & calculating & probably also a result of a lack of love as a child. However it is clearly shown she loves her children & Jamie. Joffrey did not exhibit any redeeming qualities in any chapters that I read.

This is the way I see it. Tommen and Myrcella appear to have turned out fine, but Joffrey was a monster from early childhood. Hard to blame that on Cersei. She tells others that she tried to change him, but he was uncontrollable.

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I wish Jaime raised Joffrey. He would have been better parent than Robert and Cersei.

Jaime would have been a strict father who wouldn't have spoiled him too much like Cersei did. Also with Tyrion and Tywin around, Joffrey wouldn't dare to cause much trouble.

:agree:

Especially with Tywin and Tyrion around. These two could have easily kept him in check.

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About 1% of the population are sociopaths, the part of their brain that handles empathy and conscience never develops. Most of them learn to hide the fact that they're sociopaths, it's much harder to get people to do what you want if they know that you don't care about them. And sociopaths are disproportionately succesful, in at least one study of corporate CEOs the psychologist running the study estimates that about 5% of CEOs are sociopaths.



I think it's inevitable that Joffrey was going to have no conscience or empathy, he's a textbook sociopath. But with a different upbringing he might have learned that there were limits on what he could do and that it was in his own best interests not to be cruel to the people around him


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I really don't think he would have turned out to be any different. If you recall, Tommen and Myrcella were also raised by Cersei, and hey, look at that, they turned out just fine. Cersei DOES have redeeming qualities, as mentioned above, and Joffrey has none. Joffrey was born a sociopath, and there's no cure for that (though a cup of poisoned wine is pretty close).


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About 1% of the population are sociopaths, the part of their brain that handles empathy and conscience never develops. Most of them learn to hide the fact that they're sociopaths, it's much harder to get people to do what you want if they know that you don't care about them. And sociopaths are disproportionately succesful, in at least one study of corporate CEOs the psychologist running the study estimates that about 5% of CEOs are sociopaths.

I think it's inevitable that Joffrey was going to have no conscience or empathy, he's a textbook sociopath. But with a different upbringing he might have learned that there were limits on what he could do and that it was in his own best interests not to be cruel to the people around him

Probably the best answer. 100% agree.

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About 1% of the population are sociopaths, the part of their brain that handles empathy and conscience never develops. Most of them learn to hide the fact that they're sociopaths, it's much harder to get people to do what you want if they know that you don't care about them. And sociopaths are disproportionately succesful, in at least one study of corporate CEOs the psychologist running the study estimates that about 5% of CEOs are sociopaths.

I think it's inevitable that Joffrey was going to have no conscience or empathy, he's a textbook sociopath. But with a different upbringing he might have learned that there were limits on what he could do and that it was in his own best interests not to be cruel to the people around him

Yep. The theory is that people who can choose the best course of action based on logic without worrying about hurting feelings makes them idea for CEO type positions. If you have a non-violent psychopath as king, the realm could actually prosper.

The main issue with Joffrey is that he associated with too many other people who were poor role models. Psychopaths tend to commit more crimes and do it better after being surrounded by other criminals and observing/hearing about what they did (ie. in prison). To be raised in an extremely cunning environment and to be taught about his rights to the throne, his superiority, etc. certainly contributed to why he turned out the way he did. However, I don't think him being raised by another major lord would have helped. I think this mainly because he would still be told about his superiority, learned about skills in warfare, seen a lot of betrayals, and watched executions from a very young age.

If he had been raised similarly to (f)Aegon, on the other hand, I think he would have actually had a shot at turning out okay. He still could have been a monster, of course, but it probably would have been the best anybody could do for him.

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I think one part is genetics, because usually inbreeding leads to 50% increased danger of the child having some type of deficiency aka crazy genes. But there are lots of sociopaths and psychopaths who live normally and can thrive in society. It's all that nature vs. nurture bullox again, in which I would say nature makes up 30% of a person's character and actions, while 70% or most of it goes to childhood environment and whether the parents are competent to give the child the love and discipline s/he needs.



So basically Joff would have been alot better off without Robert, and especially Cersei


God I fucking hate Cersei


Like if you're goin to be a villain, be a smart villain


not a dumb cunt villain. :bang: :bang:



:pimp: bow down to the one true :pimp:


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He should have been raised by Stannis as his ward. A harsh locale; Dragonstone. No one there to bow and scrape to him. Stannis would have taught him how to be a good soldier and commander, and wouldn't have put up with any of his bullshit.

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I really don't think he would have turned out to be any different. If you recall, Tommen and Myrcella were also raised by Cersei, and hey, look at that, they turned out just fine. Cersei DOES have redeeming qualities, as mentioned above, and Joffrey has none. Joffrey was born a sociopath, and there's no cure for that (though a cup of poisoned wine is pretty close).

Book Cersei does not have any redeeming qualities. She is worse than Joff. She also didn't try to change him either, she was pleased with how he turned out.

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About 1% of the population are sociopaths, the part of their brain that handles empathy and conscience never develops. Most of them learn to hide the fact that they're sociopaths, it's much harder to get people to do what you want if they know that you don't care about them. And sociopaths are disproportionately succesful, in at least one study of corporate CEOs the psychologist running the study estimates that about 5% of CEOs are sociopaths.

I think it's inevitable that Joffrey was going to have no conscience or empathy, he's a textbook sociopath. But with a different upbringing he might have learned that there were limits on what he could do and that it was in his own best interests not to be cruel to the people around him

:agree:

Not that I'm advocating for sociopaths, however anthropologists believe that without this quirk of human nature man may never have evolved beyond the hunter/gatherer society, many of our famous leaders throughout history were probably sociopaths. It is important to point out the distinction that not all sociopaths are evil or mass murderer's & they are usually highly intelligent & socially evolved.

An interesting study I read once that most men never actually feel true compassion until they have children of their own, not sure I believe that, but It is an interesting topic of discussion in itself, brain chemistry, the male vs female brain are not identical & very few women are sociopaths however I do know several that are deliberately cruel and do terrible things, female bullying & bitching is something I cannot comprehend yet it is so common, perhaps it's an archaic remnant of a woman's need to "fight" to find a suitable mate.

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Would be good - for Joffrey and the Realm - that King Robert would decided to honour their best friend, Eddard Stark, by naming him guardian of Prince Joffrey.

Of course, if that hapened, in the same night Cersei would had murdered Bob, and launching a war, blaming the "northern traitor" of having sent an assassin to kill "her beloved husband", king Bob.

And we would have a "WOT5K" earlier...

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Tommen and Myrcella are by all indications good kids who grew up in the exact same circumstances. So while I think Cersei is vile and certainly not a good parent, I don't know if we can fully blame her for the behavior of Joffrey. Maybe he's just the only one of the three that the incest coin flip came up 'madness' for.



Joffrey was just a psychopath. And it's good he died young---like Jaime thinks in his POV---because Joff would have been Aerys the Third and worse.


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Tommen and Myrcella are by all indications good kids who grew up in the exact same circumstances. So while I think Cersei is vile and certainly not a good parent, I don't know if we can fully blame her for the behavior of Joffrey. Maybe he's just the only one of the three that the incest coin flip came up 'madness' for.

Joffrey was just a psychopath. And it's good he died young---like Jaime thinks in his POV---because Joff would have been Aerys the Third and worse.

Exactly.

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I do believe that considering Tommen and Myrcella's behavior, the shaping of Joffrey's character wasn't entirely based on his parentage. Though, if someone like Ned had raised him, Joffrey would definitely turn out better, because Ned would actually pay attention to his psychotic tendencies, and try to make him behave normally, in his own way. If he was raised in a Tyrell family on the other hand, maybe he would've still have had problems, but he would be smart and politically intelligent, and fit to be king perhaps. In short, Joffrey truly was born a psychopath, but it wouldn't be too late, in his younger years, to actually teach him right from wrong and make him a better person.


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